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Freewill?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by hairettic, Dec 27, 2006.

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  1. hairettic

    hairettic Senior Veteran

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    Well Benoni this is my religious contrast. I didn't grow up in a church but I had a very real understanding of God from small input and lots of thinking! I remember going to bed at about 8 years old and singing Away in a Manger and logically assuming that God was fitting us all for heaven! I also logically assumed that as God had made all these other wonderful things, pets, rivers, trees, they would be there too! I believed that God was in control and taking care of everything. I was completely fearless as a child, because I knew he was right there looking after me and for that matter everyone else.

    Let's compare to my childrens' thoughts. They must perform. They must give until they bleed. You might not make to heaven. Your family members might not make it. Rapture! Your pets are already dust, they have not spirit you see. They must convert others. They must separate themselves. Remain holy! Appear perfect. I am sure I am just touching the surface.

    You are saying everything has religious symbolism. Perhaps I am just anti main stream evangelical dogma.

    pnuema, I am with you!
     
  2. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Hi Benoni,

    That is very interesting, I have never seen it put that way. I can see the connection with the Word of God and water but can you show me the connection with Wine and the revalation of the spirit.


    God Bless
     
  3. Bernie02

    Bernie02 Regular Member

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    This is an example of an untenable and naive view of free will, what some call 'free agency'. It worships man by giving him the imaginary power to hold God's sovereignty at arms length while deciding his own fate.

    Honest Calvinists and universalists alike have to reject this view, and many Arminians modify it out of definition.
     
  4. Harlin

    Harlin Member

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    Hello,

    May I ask?....If Christ had sinned Himself, would he have been able to be resurrected?

    Christ paid the price for OUR sins, not His own, only because He had lived a perfect sinless life, could His Father resurrect Him and accept His ultimate sacrifice.

    Also, I do have the choice not to sin, I can ask the Holy Spirit to take control of my life and to conform me into the image of God, therefore becoming a partaker of the divine nature and not sinning. As soon as I choose to not listen to the Holy Spirit and go it alone, I will of course sin again.

    If the Holy Spirit is completely guiding your life and you are grafted into the vine Christ Jesus, can you sin?

    "Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" Matt 5:48

    That scripture would be pointless if it weren't obtainable.

    God Bless,

    Harlin
     
  5. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

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    That is so awesome; that childlike reaching out to God. We should never loose that; but many of God’s people do. I believe we all know the reality deep down in our spirit; it just gets so religious oriented we loose that spiritual ear.

    I do not want to overwhelm you but looked up a man by the name of Ray Prinzing on the net. You will be satisfied.
     
  6. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

    +0
    The Bible is pregnant symbolisms in the scriptures and wine is one of them. I approach scripture as a different language that I need to understand. I lived in Korea for over a year and had a real tough time getting around because of the language both spoken and written, culture, customs etc.

    If you want to understand God’s Word you read it and literalize it; that is the milk of the word. But if you want to know His deepness that is where the hidden manna is.

    (Rev. 2:17)
    “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna…”
    http://home.att.net/~spiritword/Prinzing/newcov/contcov.htm

    Above is a web page written by Ray Prinzing entitled Whispers of the New Covenant that may answer your question.
     
  7. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Yes, you may. With God All things are possible (Matt 19:26)

    One point I would like to make no one is discussing whether we have choices or not what is in question whether these choices are free.

    Again if you are free just choose to listen to the holy spirit.

    What some have is just an earnest (down payment) of the holy spirit. (Eph 1:14) And with that we can have dominion over sin.



    Yes it is obtainable but not while in the flesh. Although we should strive for this perfection.


    <><
     
  8. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Hey there Benoni,

    Check this article out by Mike Vinson.

    http://iswasandwillbe.com/freefromlaw.php


    It's chockuz with excellent teachings aswell,

    I'm not going to lie to you, it's long! one hundred and twenty five pages long, but it's available in pdf format.

    it's well worth the reading!
     
  9. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Benoni,

    Yes, I agree. But we can use scripture to interpret scripture. So I assume you would use some scripture to interpret the wine = Revalation of the spirit. And that was what I was hoping you would be willing to share.

    I will check out that link if say that will help. I did a quick search for wine but that was not on the page. I will look a bit closer.

    God Bless.
     
  10. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

    +0
    I will read the whole thing seeing its is coming from you.

    I like

    Ray Prinzing
    George Warnock
    J Preston Eby
    Elaine Cooke

    etc.
     
  11. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Make sure hold their teachings up to the light of the scriptures!
     
  12. Harlin

    Harlin Member

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    Hello,

    I would suggest, that in the context of how you are using that scripture that if "all things" were possible for God, He never would have sacrificed His only Son in the first place, there would have been made another way. I'm sure that God would have also made certain that Adam never had the freewill to choose to sin.

    Mixing with sin is an impossiblity for God, therefore Jesus had to live a sinless life to be mans surety of Salvation and eternal life. If Jesus had sinned, the plan of Salvation would have failed, man would have remained guilty of sin before a Holy God and would have paid the price of eternal death, there was no other way.

    Personally, I don't believe that you can separate freewill from making choices, regardless of circumstances. Just like Adam, in the garden of Eden was free to sin and reap the consequences of his actions or remain obedient to God, noone was forcing him either way, we too have the same choices to make today.

    While under the influence of the Holy Spirit any man can have complete dominion over sin, for it is the Spirit that convicts us of sin, both before and after we commit it. If we step away from the influence of that Spirit, we are under the influence of another spirit, therefore we sin as we don't have God's constraining Spirit to guide us.

    That is how Jesus overcame, He was always filled with His Fathers Spirit and could declare:

    " I do always those things that please Him" John 8:29

    We can have this perfection by not remaining "in the flesh" but letting the Holy Spirit lead us in all our ways, and by becoming a partaker of the divine nature.

    God Bless,

    Harlin
     
  13. Harlin

    Harlin Member

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    Hello,

    That is an interesting interpretation of that particular miracle.

    In Revelation 17 and 18 all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her (Babylons) fornication, also the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the same wine.

    It would seem to me that the wine of Babylon means false religion, so the water that Jesus turned into wine could mean true religion.

    I also understand that water is also a symbol of the Holy Spirit. John 7:38-39

    Just my two cents, sorry for butting in, just thought that was interesting.

    God bless,

    Harlin
     
  14. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Babylon the mother of harlots in revelation refers to the orthodox church!
     
  15. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

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    The only reference to "freewill" in the bible is in reference to freewill offerings in the OT. Basically seems to mean giving something that was not required, nor asked for, nor expected of you.

    My own take on what freewill means is to do something without being pressured into it in anyway.
     
  16. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    You are right. But that is not what God had to do because Christ lived a sin less life. God could have created Eve strong enough to with stand the temptation of lusting after the fruit but he did not. He is not on plan "B" trying to fix plan "A" as he planed for the Adam and Eve to eat of the tree. He knew they would do what they did when he planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Everything is going exactly as God has planed it to happen.

    But giving someone free will is an impossibility. It is like God creating a rock so big that he could not lift it.

    Paying the price for sin is just a small portion of salvation.



    I would think you do not know what freewill is then. If your definition of freewill is to have a choice well then we can agree that we have freewill. But that would not be reality as that is not what free will is.


    Having dominion over sin does not make one never sin.
     
  17. elman

    elman elman

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    Jesus commanded us to love each other. When we do wht He commanded we are exercising our free will. When we fail to do what He commanded we are exercising our free will. Either way free will is implied by our being commanded to love.
     
  18. Harlin

    Harlin Member

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    Hello,

    Well I could agree on parts here, I believe Babylon in revelation refers to a false religious system, as Babylonian practices were pagan according to the Bible, in opposition to God's system and idolatrous, therefore, drawing the natural conclusion, all the wine of Babylon is false doctrine.

    God Bless,

    Harlin
     
  19. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Hi Elman,

    It does not work that way. I fell in love with my wife but it was not my freewill. She caused me to with all of her lovely attributes (way too many to list). Just with God he causes us to love him.

    1john 4:19We love him, because [See there is a cause] he first loved us.

    God Bless
     
  20. hairettic

    hairettic Senior Veteran

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    I believe we respond to his love but face it, some people have no idea that God loves them. So how then can they respond?
     
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