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Freewill?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by hairettic, Dec 27, 2006.

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  1. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
    Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
    Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great wonder.


    firstly, the woman is actually arrayed in purple and scarlet.
    purple is the colour of the priesthood and scarlet is the colour of sin.

    secondly, she is arrayed with gold and precious stones meaning that she has many good works.

    I think fornication here refers to Her not being faithful to the one she was betrothed to, which is the lamb.

    Also when John see's the woman He is in great wonder, as in He is shocked!, because the woman is the church and He wouldn't really be shocked if it was the pagan world would He?
     
  2. Harlin

    Harlin Member

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    Hello,

    So....why didn't God create Eve strong enough to resist the temptation of the serpent?, because God in His wisdom was testing her alligence, Lucifer had already revolted from his heavenly position, taking a third of the angels, without a cause, and when God created man on earth, He did not place them outside of temptation. Eve sinned without due cause.

    God in His mercy warned the pair what would happen if they were disobedient and sinned, not because God would bring these things upon them as punishment, but because these were the natural results of God having to withdraw His Holy presence from them, because of sin.

    God also in His mercy had already provided a plan of redemption to redeem fallen mankind, for in His providence, He knew that man would choose to sin unwarranted, just like Lucifer. Adam even sinned willfully after Eve.

    If we don't have freewill, how can God justly hold us accountable for our sins? God didn't plan for man to sin, He made provision, because He knew they would.

    Well, to not be able to make a choice is from my understanding, the only time when freewill cannot be exercised, ie: if someone was to just randomly shoot you, or some situation like that, you actually have no choice about whether that happens to you or not.

    I agree, we can have dominion one moment and then fall the next. My point being that while we are under the influence of the Holy Spirit, we cannot sin, as the Holy Spirit would never lead to do such. If we ignore the pleadings of the Spirit and succumb to the temptation, then we have not been controlled by God's Spirit and we will sin.

    God Bless,

    Harlin
     
  3. Harlin

    Harlin Member

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    Hello,

    This is the counterfeit religous system. God's true church is a virgin bride, not a harlot arrayed in prostitution clothing, or false priestly robes, who commits fornication with the kings and inhabitants of the earth. You should study the attributes of God's true church before committing the attributes of a harlot to it. The true church/saints as spelt out in Revelation 14:12 are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, now if the true church kept the commandments of God would it still commit fornication?.

    John is shocked because this woman (false religious system) has commited fornication (or duped/deceived) with all the kings of the earth and the inhabitants, John is in "great wonder" at the extent of the apostasy.

    God bless,

    Harlin
     
  4. Harlin

    Harlin Member

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    Hello,

    It would have taken some freewill decisions of yours to have embarked on a relationship with your prospective wife, otherwise, how else would you have gotten to know what those lovely attributes were that caused you to fall in love with her.

    Same goes with God, we have to choose to respond to His drawing/pleading with us to form a relationship with Him and to fall in Love with Him because of His great love for us.

    God Bless,

    Harlin
     
  5. Benoni

    Benoni Guest

    +0
    I Luchate to bring in another thought but is Lucifer; really the devil?



    Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering-----------in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth -----15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    Is 14:12
    How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!------13 For thou hast said in thine heart (mind) I will ascend into heaven, ---- 14 I will belike the most High, 15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit, -----16----Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms------.

    Now the religious system teaches that Ez 28:13 and Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the
    KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.


    Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven
    O Shining star of the dawns" Rotherham"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!"Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"

    2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and
    the day star arise in your hearts.

    Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David,
    and the bright and morning star.

    The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon. The word itself means the morning star. In the natural it is speaking of a King and in the spiritual it is speaking of Adam. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the
    Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?

    It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such.
    Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)

    Is14:15 says he was brought down to hell, (sheol, place of the dead) the side of the pit. Satan is never thrown in the grave because he has no part in a natural death as he is a spiritual being. Only MAN dies and is placed in a grave. Evil spirits only go to a place called Tartarus and Satan the high ranking one is sent to the lake of fire.( which is not hell)

    When Adam was placed in Eden he was perfect. When Adam fell he fell from a lofty realm. He was cast out of that realm. Adam because of the fall caused Kingdoms to shake and made the world as a wilderness. The fall brought us down into this realm of vanity. Adam was the1st Adam and Jesus is the last Adam.

    Even the Jews knew the true name of Satan. They called him Beelzebub. Satan was created a tool

    Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and
    I have created the waster to destroy.

    Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the
    BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

    1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the
    BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..

    I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning.
    Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar.

    Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

    In the beginning Man was full of light and Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel.



     
  6. gort

    gort pedantric

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    Choice is'nt free will? I would disagree.

    Well, why don't you exit these pages and go download some internet porn?

    You have a free will and a choice to make. which will it be?
     
  7. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    Hi Harlin,

    Scriptures say other wise.

    God Bless
     
  8. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    I don't like internet porn, I don't like any porn, I can honestly say that I have never liked porn, evern before I was a Christian.

    therefore I don't have freewill to go and download some internet porn, because fore some reason unknown to Me I find it vile and repulsive!

    It's a caused choice I have made, I don't like it!

    Get it? got it? Doubt it!
     
  9. Katmando

    Katmando Regular Member

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    I think you are making that up. Can you show me scripture that prove this?


    I think you are making this up as well. Can you show me scripture that prove this?

    And as Benoni has put it the lucifer story is not true. You have been lied too.

    Actually it was no warning he was stating what they would do.


    Genesis 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.



    God new the serpent would beguild Eve.




    <><
     
  10. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    God made Man in a fallen state for a reason,

    to learn!

    How could you possibly know what good is if you don't know what evil is?

    this is school time kiddies, get over the whole catastrophe and God's in damage control idea already!
     
  11. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

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    :thumbsup:
     
  12. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that God made provision for man because He knew man would sin. Why? Because man was created with the law of sin in his members.

    Now as to Gods justice, if God gave man free will knowing man was going to use it to sin how can God justly hold man accountable for his sins?

    your same question back at ya.
     
  13. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Christian


    Although I agree Lucifer is in reference to Adam, I disagree that Adam was perfect. As I have covered much of this on another thread I wonÂ’t post much here except to give you something to think on.

    Adam was created perfect in all his ways, not Gods ways.
    Adam was created with the law of sin in his members, and we read this about Lucifer. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    Now it is obvious to me at least that iniquity/law of sin was already in Adam but he did not know it was there.

    So how was the iniquity in him found? The moment he ate from the tree of KOGE he realized he had the law of sin/iniquity in his members.
     
  14. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Rom 9:14 What then will we say? [There is] not unrighteousness with God, is there? Absolutely not!
    Rom 9:15 For to Moses He says, "I will show mercy to whomever I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I have compassion." [Exod 33:19]
    Rom 9:16 So, consequently, [it is] not of the one desiring [or, willing], nor of the one running, _but_ of the One showing mercy-God!
    Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very [reason] I raised you up, in order that I should show in you My power, and in order that My name shall be proclaimed far and wide in all the land." [Exod 9:16]
    Rom 9:18 So, consequently, [to] whom He wills He shows mercy, but whom He wills He hardens [fig., makes stubborn].
    Rom 9:19 You will say then to me, "Why does He still find fault? For who has [ever] stood up against [or, resisted] His purpose?"
    Rom 9:20 But rather, O human, who are _you_, the one answering back to God? The thing formed will not say to the one having formed [it], "Why did you make me like this?" will it?
    Rom 9:21 The potter has [the] right [over] the clay to make out of the same lump on the one hand one vessel to honor, on the other hand one to dishonor, does he not?
    Rom 9:22 So [what] if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,
    Rom 9:23 and so that He should make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,


    There you go people!

    Apparrently it's not even possible to resist the will of God and thus................NO FREE WILL!
     
  15. Harlin

    Harlin Member

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    Hello,

    Aaah...now I see we are both on the same page with this one!!, I misunderstood you, I thought you meant that the orthodox church was God's true church and that it was represented by the harlot. As far as I can see, I think we agree.

    God Bless,

    Harlin
     
  16. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Cool then, we can walk together!


    Mike vinson is putting together a commentary on Revelation.
    usually I don't go in for commentaries, but I trust Mike Vinsons understanding of the scriptures.
    every time I read something of His, My understanding of the scripture opens up in a whole new way!

    apparently He is reviewing each section of the commentary, but when it's made available on his web site I'll post the link!
     
  17. Harlin

    Harlin Member

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    Hello,

    I believe man was created with the law of God written in his heart, and chose to disobey it. Adam willfully took of the fruit from Eve and ate, knowing full well that God had said not to, and that he would die if he did so.

    The only way God can logically and justifiably hold man accountable for his sins, is, if indeed man is actually completely accountable for those sins. The only way someone can be held accountable for those sins is if they had a knowledge of the law that they were disobeying (Rom 3:20, 1 John 3:4) and were within the juristiction of the lawgiver.

    If freewill is removed, then the accountability rests on someone elses shoulders, as they are not free to decide for themselves.

    Just there simply being consequences that influence our actions does not automatically take away freewill.

    God Bless,

    Harlin
     
  18. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    The only law that Adam and Eve could possibly hade knowledge of before they sinned, was the law of the spirit which they couldn't had yet, because Christ had not been revealed, and the letter of the law is what they did have after they took the fruit ,in that they had the knowledge of good and evil which is the letter of the law, just not in writing.

    they had no law until God gave them one, which was, don't eat of that one tree, and of corse, being kids, they just had to do that one thing they weren't allowed to do!

    When I say that they were kids, I mean they were in a state of innocents as children are when they are very young. kids are also very foolish and think only of their immediate needs, and if you give them a rule they want to break it as fast as they can, the bigger the consequences the more they want it!

    Pro 22:15Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.


    so really it's not so difficult to see God's over all plan right there!

    Make children, grow them up, this requires evil!

    You can't remove foolishness from the heart of a child if there's nothing for them to be abel to do wrong and thus correct them for, can you?
     
  19. Soul Searcher

    Soul Searcher The kingdom is within

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    The bible would seem to state something different.

    Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    This, to me, indicates that it was not written there originally.

    But did Adam even know what death was?

    It does not take away our ability to make a choice but making a choice is not the same as freewill.
     
  20. Evergreen48

    Evergreen48 Senior Member

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    Romans 3: 12. "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

    Yes, the law of God was written in their hearts originally. For how does one go OUT of the way if they were not IN the way to begin with? And how does one become UNprofitable if they are not profitable to begin with?

    Did you know what death was the first time you sinned? Though I can't remember what the first sin was that I did, I am sure that I had witnessed the death of several animals before that.

    How is it different? Do we not have to have free will in order to have the ability to make a choice?
     
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