Freewill?
- Thread starter hairettic
- Start date
- Status
Yeah and none have ever sought God at anytime. Not literally true. Hyperbole for a reason. We cannot be loving, i.e.good enough to deserve eternal life, but to say we cannot be loving is to say we cannot be a good Samaritan and we can if we chose to do so. Our entire reason for being is to seek God Acts 17 and over and over in Scripture we are encouraged to do good things e.g. Matt 25:31 and following. It is not about helping Christ along with my salvation. It is about not having any hope of eternal life if we do not love. First JOhn in its entirety. Jesus commanded us to love and then said if we not obey we have no hope of eternal life. It is a total misunderstanding of a great deal of scripture to assume we are incapable of being loving toward each other. If we do not love we cannot get to know God and His ways. That is how we know Jesus is by being loving even as we are known by Him who is loving to us.
If you think we are not here to love others, you had better come up with a clearer understanding of our purpose and quick.
Upvote
0
Hello,
It was the result of using the reasoning ability that God has placed within my brain. I realized from weighing up both lifestyles that living inside of God's will is more peaceful.
???.....Don't quite know what you want me to say here, but once again, God has given me reasoning powers, I can intelligently decipher from weighing up consequences from each, which lifestyle is more peaceful and fulfilling.
God was able to show me what, that I was disobedient, or that He loved me?
If it is how did He show me that He loved me, well He protected me from harm. I never said He couldn't show others either, so I don't know what you mean here??.
Athough the spiritually dead are unable to lift themselves out of the "spiritually dead" state that they are in, they can still want to be lifted out. They can still choose, to call out to Jesus to be their strength when they recognise their completely helpless state.
"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" Phil 4:13
Yes, God is the only One who can make us alive after we have been spiritually dead, however, we can assist God in this area, we can submit to the powers that work within us to refine our characters and make us
alive.
"Again, when the wicked man (spiritually dead) turneth away from His wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that (who is doing it?) which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive." Eze 18:27
"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God; wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye" Ezek 18:32
The dead co-operate by having faith in Jesus Christ. And we know that faith without works is dead. They have to believe that He is who He says He is. Look at all the spiritually dead that Jesus healed of their ailments. Many of them performed tasks in order to exercise their faith and recieve the healing. Their works in no means healed them, it was their faith. Take for instance the blind man who washed his eyes in the pool and recieved his sight, there was no virtue in the pool water to heal his eyes, Jesus worked through him and healed him, because his faith was strong.
Again, "I can do all things (which includes turning from my sin) through Christ which strengtheneth me" Phil 4:13
Faith is not just given us. "Faith comes through hearing and hearing through the Word". We have to "search ye" the scriptures, it is through this seeking God, that we will find Him and our faith is increased.
How did the multitudes come to Jesus?, they heard about His marvelous works, they came to see for themselves, and when they saw, they believed that He could do the same in their lives. Some even had enough faith to believe without seeing, they simply heard of His miracles and believed He was who He said He was.
"Coming ages" doesn't mean coming ages with which we will be given more chances to repent and be saved.
God Bless,
Harlin
It was the result of using the reasoning ability that God has placed within my brain. I realized from weighing up both lifestyles that living inside of God's will is more peaceful.
???.....Don't quite know what you want me to say here, but once again, God has given me reasoning powers, I can intelligently decipher from weighing up consequences from each, which lifestyle is more peaceful and fulfilling.
God was able to show me what, that I was disobedient, or that He loved me?
If it is how did He show me that He loved me, well He protected me from harm. I never said He couldn't show others either, so I don't know what you mean here??.
Athough the spiritually dead are unable to lift themselves out of the "spiritually dead" state that they are in, they can still want to be lifted out. They can still choose, to call out to Jesus to be their strength when they recognise their completely helpless state.
"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" Phil 4:13
Yes, God is the only One who can make us alive after we have been spiritually dead, however, we can assist God in this area, we can submit to the powers that work within us to refine our characters and make us
alive.
"Again, when the wicked man (spiritually dead) turneth away from His wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that (who is doing it?) which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive." Eze 18:27
"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God; wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye" Ezek 18:32
The dead co-operate by having faith in Jesus Christ. And we know that faith without works is dead. They have to believe that He is who He says He is. Look at all the spiritually dead that Jesus healed of their ailments. Many of them performed tasks in order to exercise their faith and recieve the healing. Their works in no means healed them, it was their faith. Take for instance the blind man who washed his eyes in the pool and recieved his sight, there was no virtue in the pool water to heal his eyes, Jesus worked through him and healed him, because his faith was strong.
Again, "I can do all things (which includes turning from my sin) through Christ which strengtheneth me" Phil 4:13
Faith is not just given us. "Faith comes through hearing and hearing through the Word". We have to "search ye" the scriptures, it is through this seeking God, that we will find Him and our faith is increased.
How did the multitudes come to Jesus?, they heard about His marvelous works, they came to see for themselves, and when they saw, they believed that He could do the same in their lives. Some even had enough faith to believe without seeing, they simply heard of His miracles and believed He was who He said He was.
"Coming ages" doesn't mean coming ages with which we will be given more chances to repent and be saved.
God Bless,
Harlin
Upvote
0
Elman,
Good point!
Yes, anyone can love those who have been good to us. But you cannot obey the command of Jesus to love your enemy without an ongoing miracle of God.
Paul said we couldnt even obey the law. The teachings of Jesus are often times tougher than the law. They are unkeepable, by simply saying I will choose to keep them. You keep stepping into humanistic thinking.
YOU can battle. YOU can try. But to say YOU can choose to love someone who has just killed your family? Not possible. Only God can give you love in a circumstance such as that. YOU can try to choose to love your enemy all day and without God miracuously changing your heart, it will not happen.
Be careful of words like entire. There are other reasons for our being. One major reason for our being that I can think of right off the top of my head, is to be conformed, transformed into the likeness of God and His Son. (ROM. 8:29 and 2 COR. 3:18)
Cant you see your clear contradiction in these two sentences? Please tell me that you can?
You say:
1. YOU are not helping Christ with YOUR salvation.
Then you say:
2. YOU will not be saved (have eternal life) unless YOU choose to love.
Please hear this:
You have no hope of eternal life unless you are perfect in every way.
Love is a huge part. But it is not all.
Unless you have perfect Truth, Nobility, Righteousness, Purity and Humility for starters, you have no hope for eternal life.
Thats the whole point.
Let go of your fleshly mindset of pleasing God by your actions. REALIZE even your desire to love and serve comes from God and God alone, when and in the amount He wants to give it.
You know good and well I believe we are to love. But we are only able to Love BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US. Only when you are weak, can He then become strong.
God must continually give me love before I can love. He must give me the desire to want to love, before I can desire to have love.
Once He gives it to me, it then in that limited sense becomes my love. But love can be withdrawn by God at any time He chooses and you could try to choose to love until the cows come home, to no avail.
It is the same with Faith. With Hope.
With your next breath. Once God gives me my next breath, it then in that limited sense becomes my breath. But that breath could be withdrawn by God at any time He chooses and I could try to choose to breathe until the cows come home, to no avail
Good point!
Yes, anyone can love those who have been good to us. But you cannot obey the command of Jesus to love your enemy without an ongoing miracle of God.
Paul said we couldnt even obey the law. The teachings of Jesus are often times tougher than the law. They are unkeepable, by simply saying I will choose to keep them. You keep stepping into humanistic thinking.
YOU can battle. YOU can try. But to say YOU can choose to love someone who has just killed your family? Not possible. Only God can give you love in a circumstance such as that. YOU can try to choose to love your enemy all day and without God miracuously changing your heart, it will not happen.
Be careful of words like entire. There are other reasons for our being. One major reason for our being that I can think of right off the top of my head, is to be conformed, transformed into the likeness of God and His Son. (ROM. 8:29 and 2 COR. 3:18)
Cant you see your clear contradiction in these two sentences? Please tell me that you can?
You say:
1. YOU are not helping Christ with YOUR salvation.
Then you say:
2. YOU will not be saved (have eternal life) unless YOU choose to love.
Please hear this:
You have no hope of eternal life unless you are perfect in every way.
Love is a huge part. But it is not all.
Unless you have perfect Truth, Nobility, Righteousness, Purity and Humility for starters, you have no hope for eternal life.
Thats the whole point.
Let go of your fleshly mindset of pleasing God by your actions. REALIZE even your desire to love and serve comes from God and God alone, when and in the amount He wants to give it.
You know good and well I believe we are to love. But we are only able to Love BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US. Only when you are weak, can He then become strong.
God must continually give me love before I can love. He must give me the desire to want to love, before I can desire to have love.
Once He gives it to me, it then in that limited sense becomes my love. But love can be withdrawn by God at any time He chooses and you could try to choose to love until the cows come home, to no avail.
It is the same with Faith. With Hope.
With your next breath. Once God gives me my next breath, it then in that limited sense becomes my breath. But that breath could be withdrawn by God at any time He chooses and I could try to choose to breathe until the cows come home, to no avail
Upvote
0
Harlin,
But it is pretty impressive that YOU were able to reason yourself into God’s peace. I guess 90% of humanity doesn’t have the ability to reason.
Point One: You say God showed you that you were disobedient. He showed you his love. He caused you to change to follow Him.
Point Two: You don’t believe He will cause all to follow Him.
You are now left with a whole mess of problems that you have to explain.
1. Why was God able to show you and to change you?
Because YOU were receptive? Because YOU had a good heart? Those are good things. They are meritorious. Grace is unmerited favor. This throws grace out the window. You were saved without grace. Miraculous.
2. God won’t show everyone? Why?
Because He is a gentlemen? Come on now. Your very testimony shows God will get pretty ungentlemanly to save us.
Because He can’t overcome our will?
God is that incapable and uncreative?. He can’t figure out a way to bring everyone to repentance in their own special way? Just like He did you. He didn’t make you into a robot. He doesn’t have to make anyone into a robot to mold their heart the way He wants to.
Just admit for a short time that a limited discipline, however severe, to bring all to repentance is reasonable since aion and aionios can mean a period of time.
Carry that mindset into scripture study and watch the inconsistencies fall away and the light of God’s glory manifest as never before.
OK and I am going to remind you to remember to use your reasoning ability when it comes to other issues that will be brought up, and you will be tempted to say, “Oh, it is a mystery.” or “Oh, it is simply hard to understand. We will one day in heaven.”
But it is pretty impressive that YOU were able to reason yourself into God’s peace. I guess 90% of humanity doesn’t have the ability to reason.
I wanted you to say where the preference came from. And you answered it. It didn’t come from a miraculous work of God. It came from your reasoning powers. Again, I feel pretty sorry for the mass of humanity who don’t have your level of reasoning skills.
OK, we are going to have to hold onto a few points at the same time, if we are to get anywhere.
Point One: You say God showed you that you were disobedient. He showed you his love. He caused you to change to follow Him.
Point Two: You don’t believe He will cause all to follow Him.
You are now left with a whole mess of problems that you have to explain.
1. Why was God able to show you and to change you?
Because YOU were receptive? Because YOU had a good heart? Those are good things. They are meritorious. Grace is unmerited favor. This throws grace out the window. You were saved without grace. Miraculous.
2. God won’t show everyone? Why?
Because He is a gentlemen? Come on now. Your very testimony shows God will get pretty ungentlemanly to save us.
Because He can’t overcome our will?
God is that incapable and uncreative?. He can’t figure out a way to bring everyone to repentance in their own special way? Just like He did you. He didn’t make you into a robot. He doesn’t have to make anyone into a robot to mold their heart the way He wants to.
Just admit for a short time that a limited discipline, however severe, to bring all to repentance is reasonable since aion and aionios can mean a period of time.
Carry that mindset into scripture study and watch the inconsistencies fall away and the light of God’s glory manifest as never before.
Upvote
0
Elman,
Yeah and none have ever sought God at anytime. Not literally true. Hyperbole for a reason.
Good point!
Quote:
We cannot be loving, i.e.good enough to deserve eternal life, but to say we cannot be loving is to say we cannot be a good Samaritan and we can if we chose to do so.
Quote:
Our entire reason for being is to seek God Acts 17
Quote:
It is not about helping Christ along with my salvation. It is about not having any hope of eternal life if we do not love.
Quote:
First JOhn in its entirety. Jesus commanded us to love and then said if we not obey we have no hope of eternal life.
Quote:
It is a total misunderstanding of a great deal of scripture to assume we are incapable of being loving toward each other. If we do not love we cannot get to know God and His ways. That is how we know Jesus is by being loving even as we are known by Him who is loving to us.
If you think we are not here to love others, you had better come up with a clearer understanding of our purpose and quick.
Yeah and none have ever sought God at anytime. Not literally true. Hyperbole for a reason.
Good point!
Quote:
We cannot be loving, i.e.good enough to deserve eternal life, but to say we cannot be loving is to say we cannot be a good Samaritan and we can if we chose to do so.
Anyone and everyone can love their neighbor and that is how we are created and what makes us humans rather than just another animal. The Good Samaritan is possible without another miracle. God has already done the miracle of creating us with that ability.
I and Jesus. He said love your neigbor. That is what I am repeating. What is not possible is to love your neighbor enough and perfectly to deserve eternal life, but that does not mean we are unable to love our neighbor.
You are probably not using the word love as a verb. I am and that makes it possible.
Many non Christians throughout history have proven this to be a false statment. There was a Muslim who helped a female soldier in Iraq. That was loving your enemy.
Quote:
Our entire reason for being is to seek God Acts 17
We seek God by loving our neighbor and if we do that we are conformed, transformed into the likeness of God and His son who is love. There is no other way to seek God.
Quote:
It is not about helping Christ along with my salvation. It is about not having any hope of eternal life if we do not love.
I fail to understand why you cannot see that being unable to be perfectly loving is not proof I cannot be loving. Why are you unable to see that being loving and understaning I can be loving is not at all claiming the ability to be perfetly loving?
What I am saying is I cannot earn my salvation because I cannot be perfectly loving as Christ is loving.
Is that not what Jesus said in Matt 25:31 and following? Is that not what Paul said in 1 Cor 13? Is that not what John said in First John?
Quote:
First JOhn in its entirety. Jesus commanded us to love and then said if we not obey we have no hope of eternal life.
Please hear this: I don't have to be perfect because of the grace of God.
Jesus said it summed up the entire law of God.
First of all we cannot have perfect anything and that is why the gift of eternal life is a gift. Secondly Truth, nobility, righteousness, purity and humility are all part of being loving.
You don't believe God is pleased by your wicked actions. Why would you think God was not pleased by your loving actions?
Realize, you are not a robot. You were created with the ability to love others and God expects you to use the abillity He gave you which is the same abililty He gave all human beings because God is not a respector of persons.
Quote:
It is a total misunderstanding of a great deal of scripture to assume we are incapable of being loving toward each other. If we do not love we cannot get to know God and His ways. That is how we know Jesus is by being loving even as we are known by Him who is loving to us.
If you think we are not here to love others, you had better come up with a clearer understanding of our purpose and quick.
He first loved all of us so all of us are able to love.
God continually gives everyone His love and He gives everyone the desire to want to love. He forces none to love and if He did it would not be love. We do not love because God forces us to. We love because God enables us to be able to love and loves us and it therefore is our natural response to His love, but we can decide to not love.
God is trustworthy and He never withdraws His love from us or our ability to love others.
Faith and hope are meaningless with out love.
Our life and breath is a gift of God. So also is our ability to love and all human beings are created with these same gifts.
Upvote
0
Hello,
Well, thats a nice rewording of what I actually said. Are you trying to make it go along with the point your are trying to make right?. Nevermind the scripture that I gave you to back up my understanding, it still says what it says even if you don't address it.
I don't believe that 90% of the population don't have reasoning abilities, we were made in the image of God, and reasoning abilities is one of the many blessings bestowed because of that.
If one can't intelligently work out that living according to God's will is peaceful as opposed to not living according to God's will being unpeaceful, then we all just have no brains and are only robots. Remember, cause and effect.
No, thats what you are saying, I was asking if that was what your question meant. I didn't say God caused me to change. I turned from my sin because God loves me and I recognised that. With which I gave scripture to say that is possible. (Ezekiel 18 I believe)
No, I don't believe He will "cause" all men to follow Him. I do believe He will call them all, but that not all will turn from their sin.
The problems I need to explain are only in your imagination I'm afraid.
I don't know what you are going on about here, you have created a whole heap of problems with what I apparently said over something I didn't actually say, you did.
Why does God even love me?, I am not good, I don't deserve His love, but He loves me anyway, that is grace. I didn't "reason myself into His peace", I recognised the difference in the two lifestyles using the reasoning skills given us, we do have them you know, we are even told to "reason together" concerning the scriptures.
God didn't "save" me right there on the spot, He preserved my life so that I could then develop a relationship with Him, a relationship takes two parties, even a "covenant" takes two parties, I made a covenant with God when I was baptised later, I could still break that covenant if I chose to. I choose to "turn from my sin".
No, he didn't make me into a robot, He "brought me to repentance" yes, but not all respond to God's calling in the same way. If you are a parent, you will understand that you cannot make a child change their behaviour for the better unless they want to co-operate with you. You can force them, but that isn't the way of love, they will resent you later, they have to want to be good for the change to stick.
What inconsistencies??, I believe we will not be able to repent forever, there is only the time on earth until Jesus comes, but you don't believe Jesus comes physically a second time do you, so there is only inconsistencies between how we view scripture?
God Bless,
Harlin
Quote:
It was the result of using the reasoning ability that God has placed within my brain. I realized from weighing up both lifestyles that living inside of God's will is more peaceful.
OK and I am going to remind you to remember to use your reasoning ability when it comes to other issues that will be brought up, and you will be tempted to say, “Oh, it is a mystery.” or “Oh, it is simply hard to understand. We will one day in heaven.”
But it is pretty impressive that YOU were able to reason yourself into God’s peace. I guess 90% of humanity doesn’t have the ability to reason.
Well, thats a nice rewording of what I actually said. Are you trying to make it go along with the point your are trying to make right?. Nevermind the scripture that I gave you to back up my understanding, it still says what it says even if you don't address it.
I don't believe that 90% of the population don't have reasoning abilities, we were made in the image of God, and reasoning abilities is one of the many blessings bestowed because of that.
If one can't intelligently work out that living according to God's will is peaceful as opposed to not living according to God's will being unpeaceful, then we all just have no brains and are only robots. Remember, cause and effect.
No, thats what you are saying, I was asking if that was what your question meant. I didn't say God caused me to change. I turned from my sin because God loves me and I recognised that. With which I gave scripture to say that is possible. (Ezekiel 18 I believe)
No, I don't believe He will "cause" all men to follow Him. I do believe He will call them all, but that not all will turn from their sin.
The problems I need to explain are only in your imagination I'm afraid.
I don't know what you are going on about here, you have created a whole heap of problems with what I apparently said over something I didn't actually say, you did.
Why does God even love me?, I am not good, I don't deserve His love, but He loves me anyway, that is grace. I didn't "reason myself into His peace", I recognised the difference in the two lifestyles using the reasoning skills given us, we do have them you know, we are even told to "reason together" concerning the scriptures.
God didn't "save" me right there on the spot, He preserved my life so that I could then develop a relationship with Him, a relationship takes two parties, even a "covenant" takes two parties, I made a covenant with God when I was baptised later, I could still break that covenant if I chose to. I choose to "turn from my sin".
No, he didn't make me into a robot, He "brought me to repentance" yes, but not all respond to God's calling in the same way. If you are a parent, you will understand that you cannot make a child change their behaviour for the better unless they want to co-operate with you. You can force them, but that isn't the way of love, they will resent you later, they have to want to be good for the change to stick.
What inconsistencies??, I believe we will not be able to repent forever, there is only the time on earth until Jesus comes, but you don't believe Jesus comes physically a second time do you, so there is only inconsistencies between how we view scripture?
God Bless,
Harlin
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
