Freewill?

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Pneuma3

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Hi guys maybe we should all put forth our understanding of what free will is.


I’ll start, to me free will means that there can be no consequences for using our will.
If there is consequences then our will is not free.

And

Free will would have no restraints placed on it.

Example: you have apples, oranges and pears placed before you, but you are told that you can only eat the apples and oranges but you are not allowed to eat the pears or you will be punished.

So here you have both restraints and consequences placed on our will.

If our will was really free we should be allowed to eat of all 3 groups of fruit.

This to me shows a difference between free will and choice.

What is really placed before us is a choice and that choice always has restraints placed on in.

Anyway that my take on free will, what way do you guys see it?
 
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Evergreen48

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Hi guys maybe we should all put forth our understanding of what free will is.


I’ll start, to me free will means that there can be no consequences for using our will.
If there is consequences then our will is not free.

And

Free will would have no restraints placed on it.

Example: you have apples, oranges and pears placed before you, but you are told that you can only eat the apples and oranges but you are not allowed to eat the pears or you will be punished.

So here you have both restraints and consequences placed on our will.

If our will was really free we should be allowed to eat of all 3 groups of fruit.

This to me shows a difference between free will and choice.

What is really placed before us is a choice and that choice always has restraints placed on in.

Anyway that my take on free will, what way do you guys see it?
Just because we are told not to eat the pears does not mean that we are not allowed to eat them if we want to. Or even that we are not able to eat them if we so choose.
 
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Pneuma3

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Just because we are told not to eat the pears does not mean that we are not allowed to eat them if we want to. Or even that we are not able to eat them if we so choose.

Yes but if we eat them there are consequences, so how can that be termed free?

What is your defintion of free will?

The reason I asked everyone to put forth thier understanding of it is because if we cannot agree on what free will is then how can we even discuss what free will is.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Romans 3: 12. "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
This is just Paul quoting something from the OT, That in my understanding was referring to a specific generation that had became so corrupt that even thier deeds of righteousness were evil, thier lips were near but thier hearts afar, they went to church, made thier offerings yet ignored the poor, the sick, the downtrodden, this was never meant to apply to all people of all time and certianly has nothing to do with the comments I have made to which you are responding.


Yes, the law of God was written in their hearts originally. For how does one go OUT of the way if they were not IN the way to begin with? And how does one become UNprofitable if they are not profitable to begin with?
Totally disagree with your conclusions here. There is no idication that the law was written into thier hearts.


Did you know what death was the first time you sinned? Though I can't remember what the first sin was that I did, I am sure that I had witnessed the death of several animals before that.
And what does this have to do with anything? Not one of us understands what death really is even now, but in the case of Adam supposedly death had not yet entered into the world he would have had no concept whatsoever of what this meant.



How is it different? Do we not have to have free will in order to have the ability to make a choice?
Look at freewill offerings in the OT for a hint.

Basically a choice is a choice a freewill choice is one that has no outside pressure to make the choice a certain way.. When presented with the option to do as I say or else there is no freewill involved.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Hi guys maybe we should all put forth our understanding of what free will is.


I’ll start, to me free will means that there can be no consequences for using our will.
If there is consequences then our will is not free.

And

Free will would have no restraints placed on it.

Example: you have apples, oranges and pears placed before you, but you are told that you can only eat the apples and oranges but you are not allowed to eat the pears or you will be punished.

So here you have both restraints and consequences placed on our will.

If our will was really free we should be allowed to eat of all 3 groups of fruit.

This to me shows a difference between free will and choice.

What is really placed before us is a choice and that choice always has restraints placed on in.

Anyway that my take on free will, what way do you guys see it?

In the strictest sense I agree with your version.

I think though in the sense it is used [unrelated to religion] it means that you make a choice with no outside pressure to make that choice. A choice made under duress is certianly not a freewill choice.
 
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Evergreen48

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Pneuma3 said:
Yes but if we eat them there are consequences, so how can that be termed free?
There was no charge for any of the fruit, including the pears. It was all free for the taking. There was also no charge for the consequences resulting from eating the fruit that was not supposed to be eaten. In other words, you did not pay for the consequence. The consequence was what you paid.

What is your defintion of free will?
The reason I asked everyone to put forth thier understanding of it is because if we cannot agree on what free will is then how can we even discuss what free will is.
My definition of free will is the God given ability to know what actions would be pleasing to Him and what actions would not be pleasing to Him. And the God given freedom to do either one. And both these things were free. God didn't charge us anything for either one. :)
 
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Soul Searcher

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Another possible way of looking at freewill is.

If we are faced with options A and B and we must choose one or the other this can not be freewill as freewill would allow us to choose not to make the choice of A or B.

Such is the case with traditional doctorines. A= Go to heaven [carries a lot of hidden bagage far from being so simple as making a choice yet always presented that way to justify hell] B=Go to hell [carries no bagage but has extreme consequences] C= wait until I am 100% sure what I am getting myself into.

Freewill would choose C but that is not an option, so one must choose A or B. Yet it is not even that,, it is really choosing A or not choosing A. No one ever chooses B, They do choose C but that is not allowed so thier freewill has been over riden completely int hat they are only allowed to make one choice and not making that choice results in eternal consequences.

Certianly I see no way that anyone could say that anyone chooses hell of thier own freewill and likewise Choosing heaven can not be a freewill choice due to the extreme threats and lack of other options that go with this choice.

Where is the freewill?
 
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swind

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Man can take all the credit he/she wants to about excepting Jesus as the savior; but is that how God's Word it is said it is done.

I understand what the traditional teaching is; but my point is not what tradition teaches but what does God’s Word teach or does not show us.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I have searched and cannot not find the concept of freewill or the word “free will/freewill” in the Bible except the Freewill Offering in the OT. Now there are a few verses in the OT the hint towards free will; but that has nothing to do with salvation; salvation is a NT revelation.

Freewill; a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures. But I am saying we do not come to God by free will; we are saved by grace. I see on the contrary He draws (Gk. drags) us.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

Draw Greek Strong’s 1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

So if freewill is in scripture I have not found it?
Hi,

I am brand new to any type of chat so I hope I am doing this correct. here goes

Duet 30:19
 
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Benoni

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Hi,

I am brand new to any type of chat so I hope I am doing this correct. here goes

Duet 30:19
Duet 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

It is Ok to write the scripture out; makes it easier to reply.

No one is denying that man has freewill to choose many things in life. But when it comes to salvation which is a NT revelation where is it in scripture?

As I said if God is drawing/dragging us; that is totally contrary to free choice; we are saved by grace not our own freewill.
 
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Benoni

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Rom 10:17 Faith comes from hearing the Word of God. The word itself contains faith. It is our responce to the word, positive or negetive.

The place where we are heading is, can we resist God?
If no one can come to the Father unless He draws/drags us; where is the resistance? There is none if He draws/drags.

Where is the freewill that is the foundation of so many religions?
 
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Evergreen48

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Soul Searcher said:
This is just Paul quoting something from the OT, That in my understanding was referring to a specific generation that had became so corrupt that even thier deeds of righteousness were evil, thier lips were near but thier hearts afar, they went to church, made thier offerings yet ignored the poor, the sick, the downtrodden, this was never meant to apply to all people of all time and certianly has nothing to do with the comments I have made to which you are responding.

FYI, Paul was quoting something from the OT concerning not a specific generation, but a specific people - The Jews. And it was to this same specific people, the Jews, to whom, through the mouth of Jeremiah, God said the scripture you quoted earlier in reference to someone's quote that they believed 'man was created with the law of God written in his heart, and chose to disobey it.'

Jeremiah 31: ( 33) "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

So if the scripture I quoted has no relevance to this topic, then neither does the scripture you quoted.


Soul Searcher said:
Totally disagree with your conclusions here. There is no idication that the law was written into thier hearts.
Maybe there is no indication to you that God's laws had once been written into their hearts, but to me the fact that this people had once obeyed His laws and had been profitable concerning His purpose for them, shows me that indeed, His law had been written in their hearts, but they had quenched and ignored it, thus leaving the way which their hearts originally told them was the right way, and became totally useless in the eyes of God.

Does the scripture not say "My Spirit shall not always strive with man. . . . ." ?

And did He not say to this same people:

Isaiah 1: (4) "Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
(5) Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
(6) From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Soul searcher said:
And what does this have to do with anything? Not one of us understands what death really is even now,
I don't know about anyone else, but I believe I understand what death is well enough when I see the lifeless form of someone being lowered into a grave.
but in the case of Adam supposedly death had not yet entered into the world he would have had no concept whatsoever of what this meant.

What is the life span of a lizard?

The life span of lizards varies depending on the species. But in general, the larger the species of the lizard, the longer it is likely to live. Some small lizards live on average for just one year, where some large lizards could be expected to live for decades.

Adam would have had to have been pretty dumb if he didn't understand what death meant after he found his first dead lizard rotting and decaying.


When presented with the option to do as I say or else there is no freewill involved.
One is always free to opt for the 'or else'.
 
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FYI, Paul was quoting something from the OT concerning not a specific generation, but a specific people - The Jews.
Yet there are those in the OT who are said to be righteous.. It clearly does not apply to all.


So if the scripture I quoted has no relevance to this topic, then neither does the scripture you quoted.
Nonsense. ..




Maybe there is no indication to you that God's laws had once been written into their hearts, but to me the fact that this people had once obeyed His laws and had been profitable concerning His purpose for them, shows me that indeed, His law had been written in their hearts, but they had quenched and ignored it, thus leaving the way which their hearts originally told them was the right way, and became totally useless in the eyes of God.
There is no indication of it in the scriptures. The simple fact that it says the he will [future tense] write it in indicates that it was not written [past tense] into thier hearts.



One is always free to opt for the 'or else'.
Typical cop out answer... This is not freedom at all.. There is only one choice as presented NO ONE abosolutely NO ONE clooses to the or else, the or else is [according to the doctorines] forced upon them with absolutely no appeal, no second chance no freedom no choice whatsoever.

How anyone sees freewill here is beyond me.
 
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gratis

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Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

We have freewill in every situation - otherwise we would be robots. (IMHO)
 
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Soul Searcher

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Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

We have freewill in every situation - otherwise we would be robots. (IMHO)


Would you say that God saying "Do this or else" qualifies as divine intervention?
 
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Soul Searcher

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Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

We have freewill in every situation - otherwise we would be robots. (IMHO)

Also notice the primary part of voluntary choice.

If your boss says work or get fired, it would be inacurate to say that you are working of your own freewill.
 
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swind

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If no one can come to the Father unless He draws/drags us; where is the resistance? There is none if He draws/drags.

Where is the freewill that is the foundation of so many religions?
You have quoted two verses, in both verses you choose to change the word "draw" to "drag".

The problem is, it does not say drag, is says draw. None of the respected bible translations translate that word drag.

I would say that the translators of the respected translations would no more than both you or I on the meaning of a specific word. Example: The Darby, ASV, TEV, KJ, NKJ, NAS, NLV, NRSV and RSV,,, None of them translate draw to drag. They don't because it's not what it means. You looked at the Strongs - Great tool I use it also but, thats not enough. There is allot more to a word study than the strongs. The translators above actualy can read Hebrew, Greek and the other tounges that are needed to properly translate a word, and I can promise you it is much deeper than looking up a number in the Strongs. I prefer the translations above to your translation.

Take a look at the Amplified on these verses it might help.

Also take a look at James 1:14. In this verse we are Drawn away by our own lusts. This word is from the same root. In james 1:14 what are we drawn away with? Our own lusts. Just as we can be drawn away by our own lusts. God can draw us with his love and goodness. 'It is Gods goodness that leads us to repentance"

If the way you looked at those two verse was correct and it is not, as I we have just found out. But if it was, it leaves you with only two possibilities: One, everyone on earth gets saved "draged", or two, once again you will have to change a word to fit your doctrine. You will have to change the word "all" to some. or all of the elect or, all of the chosen. But once again thats not what is written. Lets stick with what is written, not what we want it to say.

Love in Jesus

this brings us back to the origonal question. Can we resist the holy Spirit?
 
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