Freemasonry. Separating myth from fiction.

[morningstar2651]

I don't recognize the initials (and punctuation) you used there. Is that Alcoholics Anonymous?

OTO is Ordo Templi Orientis and the A∴A∴ has multiple possible names (it's not Alcoholics Anonymous). Both were formed by Aleister Crowley and the OTO has an initiatory structure inspired by masonry. A couple of the original initiations were downright plagiarized from the Scottish rite.

I just read this silly argument that Freemasonry is some super-secret pagan plot to lure Christians into worshiping alongside them. The idea that Pagans want to lure Christians into their midst is a bizarre thought - we have no need to convert anyone - we have no great commission. Christians believe that all non-Christians are damned to Hell, so they proselytize and try to convert us to save our souls.

We Pagans don't believe that Christians are damned - we have no motive to convert them openly or covertly. There are magical orders and societies with specifically Pagan membership that, as demonstrated in this thread, are unrelated to masonry. The idea that the Freemasons are a recruitment center is beyond wrong - it has no semblance of being right.

 

[Simpleman25]

I apologize for not weighing in earlier morningstar.

Crowley and Joseph Smith have brought a lot of negative attention to masonry. Stealing symbols signs and words straight from us.

Their stories of how they became masons is also unbelievable.

For those of us that fight to spread the truth about freemasonry, we run against the same names all the time. Even though they've all been debunked. It doesn't stop the antimasonic crowd from continually using them to attempt to portray us in a negative light.

 

[morningstar2651]

I apologize for not weighing in earlier morningstar.

Crowley and Joseph Smith have brought a lot of negative attention to masonry. Stealing symbols signs and words straight from us.

Their stories of how they became masons is also unbelievable.

For those of us that fight to spread the truth about freemasonry, we run against the same names all the time. Even though they've all been debunked. It doesn't stop the antimasonic crowd from continually using them to attempt to portray us in a negative light.

That's what I figured. Speaking as someone who's religious beliefs and practices are heavily influenced by the writings of Aleister Crowley: The O.T.O. is not Freemasonry.

 

[Albion]

OTO is Ordo Templi Orientis and the A∴A∴ has multiple possible names (it's not Alcoholics Anonymous). Both were formed by Aleister Crowley and the OTO has an initiatory structure inspired by masonry. A couple of the original initiations were downright plagiarized from the Scottish rite.

Thanks. As you know, there are dozens of organizations that have been started by someone or other with the intent of borrowing symbolism, procedures, and whatever from Masonry. By the same token, there are many organizations that have been founded by people who plagiarized from the military, some church, or a variety of other associations.

Some of the founders probably did know something about Masonry, but others were just going on hearsay. In any case, they aren't Masonic and certainly not any of Crowley's organizations.

I just read this silly argument that Freemasonry is some super-secret pagan plot to lure Christians into worshiping alongside them. The idea that Pagans want to lure Christians into their midst is a bizarre thought - we have no need to convert anyone - we have no great commission. Christians believe that all non-Christians are damned to Hell, so they proselytize and try to convert us to save our souls.

Yes, I agree that it's silly on it's face, but we also have those conspiracy theories that claim Masonry is a super secret plot to establish world government, control everyone's economy, advance some nefarious plans of the Papacy, front for some political party or other, or...well...they're endless.

 

[duane washum]

Are you disputing the statistics?

I'm questioning YOU.

 

[circuitrider]

That's what I figured. Speaking as someone who's religious beliefs and practices are heavily influenced by the writings of Aleister Crowley: The O.T.O. is not Freemasonry.

Morningstar, my apologies if my comments about Crowley offended you. I didn't intend to disparage your own personal faith.

I have heard a lot of wild stories about Crowley's personal life and behavior. Maybe you can debunk such stories. I'm sensitive to the fact that Freemasons have false stories told all the time I should have been a little bit more circumspect since I do not know a lot about the OTO other than what I've read online.

 

[duane washum]

Just wanted you to know that if I join freemasonry, it's because you convinced me it was a good idea.

So tell me, star, how that they have savaged your hero, how do you like the "gentle Craft"? Still think it's a good idea?

 

[Albion]

Give it a rest, Duane. I'm certain that Morningstar has more sense than to be led by you into being outraged over next to nothing.

 

[duane washum]

Give it a rest, Duane. I'm certain that Morningstar has more sense than to be led by you into being outraged over next to nothing.

Is that true, morning? Is it really next to nothing? Sounded to me like you were offended.

 

[gamewell45]

I'm questioning YOU.

And I'm questioning YOU as well. Can you respond to my question without attempting to deflect?

 

[circuitrider]

Give it a rest, Duane. I'm certain that Morningstar has more sense than to be led by you into being outraged over next to nothing.

But Duane doesn't.

 

[circuitrider]

This is a bit off topic. But given the topic has been derailed quite a bit, I'm wondering if we have any other members of the AMD here?

I'm excited that in my jurisdiction we are on the verge of chartering a new AMD Council in my part of the state.

 

[duane washum]

Your originally wrote:

I paid a visit to their website and needless to say i'm not really impressed; I was looking for comments from the "thousands" of ex-masons who allegedly belong to the site and was mildly disapointed. Many of the "postings" are years old.

You just can't take these guys serious at all.

I then responded by asking you to pony up with something to back up your statement. If you can't do that, fine. But I'm not going to jump on a merry-go-round with you.

 

[Skip Sampson]

That is really only going to help you if you have the very latest Code from the jurisdiction involved. GL rules about some things can change as often as annually.

The Code doesn't change all that much in the essentials. Changes are usually in minor areas. I'm more interested in ritual (which changes rarely) and the training documentation (which is more fluid). Cordially, Skip.

 

[Albion]

This is a bit off topic. But given the topic has been derailed quite a bit, I'm wondering if we have any other members of the AMD here?

I'm excited that in my jurisdiction we are on the verge of chartering a new AMD Council in my part of the state.

IMHO, AMD could be terrific, but it has to work those degrees and take seriously the scholarship/research aspect. I don't know if you'd be able to tell in the beginning stages.

 

[circuitrider]

IMHO, AMD could be terrific, but it has to work those degrees and take seriously the scholarship/research aspect. I don't know if you'd be able to tell in the beginning stages.

I'm already a member of AMD in another part of the state and help charter the council there. I'm going to be one of the founding members here.

You actually can't work the AMD degrees. You can emulate them. But I find them very interesting. The other council I'm in has Masonic research and education as well. It is our plan to do the same with the new council.

 

[gamewell45]

Your originally wrote:



I then responded by asking you to pony up with something to back up your statement. If you can't do that, fine. But I'm not going to jump on a merry-go-round with you.

That's fine; both you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this thread.

 

[americanvet]

Question for the Freemasons:

What is your opinion, if any, of organizations like the O.T.O. or the A∴A∴?

They are interesting to read about. I find it astounding that the orders that he started are still around. Do you practice Thelema? I am not sure what the differences are in these orders.

However,as a Christian I do (regardless of what anti-Masons think) believe that without Christ a person will not be in heaven.

 

[keith99]

They are interesting to read about. I find it astounding that the orders that he started are still around. Do you practice Thelema? I am not sure what the differences are in these orders.

However,as a Christian I do (regardless of what anti-Masons think) believe that without Christ a person will not be in heaven.

Bolding mine.

Perhaps. But if the Christian God exists I think an unbeliever who comes to judgment and says they have no right to enter and asks for forgiveness and grace has a far better chance of entry than a Christian who claims they are entitle to entry because of their deeds.

 

[duane washum]

That's fine; both you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this thread.

Not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. It's simply a matter of you making a statement you can't back up.