Free Will or Predestination

[iLogos]

So be an armenian.

Why did u change your avatar from smiley to meanie?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Why did u change your avatar from smiley to meanie?

They're video game references.

 

[iLogos]

ahhh, I C

 

[His_disciple3]

I don't consider myself a Calvinist because in all my years of study it was not a issue for me. I do agree with some of the theology. I was really just curious what *you* believe and why and didn't really want to make this a Calvin debate.

It looks like no matter how you look at it, it is limited atonement because not every one is saved. Do u agree with that point?

His death was for the World, the Whole World. all sinners. if all were cursed by the fall of adam then all can be redeemed by the uplifting of Christ. now we know that all is not going to believe. so yes in a sense Christ died for the Lost. But it is not His down fall if one does not believe. I mean this mind set that if one person that Christ died For does not make it in, then Christ didn't do what He came to do is not scriptural. if it is scriptural, what do we do cut this verse out :

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV
Jesus called Judas: friend, Judas was raised to betray Jesus, but he didn't have to when they went to the Garden. Judas told the scribes the one I kiss is the one you want. the scribes knew who was the one they wanted was. yeah things happen that we can't explain. does prophecy come about because God knew it would happen or does it come about cause God said it would happen. is predestination in scripture for an individual, or for a group/the Church. is the individual spotless or the church spotless, is the individual sanctified or the sanctified Church. did He fore know me as an individual or as part of the Church. all Israel shall be saved, but not all Israel is Israel. so did He fore know Moses as Individual, or Moses as Part of Isreal. yeah I know It is a personal walk with Him He knows how many hairs I have, But Did He predestined 1 individual, 5 individuals or a group of Indidviduals and all that believe fall into that group, through faith. John said that as He saw into Heaven that he saw a number that can't be numbered by man, so If John saw them in heaven has God not already saw them in heaven and He would know them individually, but yet nothing unclean can be in His presense, He would have to sanctifiy those that were in before they can get in. To Me calvinism, takes 90% of the Bible and thrashes it, why should we preach, why live a Holy Life, why seperate ourselves from the World, why love one another, why share Christ with any one? why the Cross, why the shed Blood, if some were in before time as we know it, then they are in. will God kicked Out some of the elect, will God kick anyone out whom has been elected. the Bible says salvation is a gift, can one refuse it or have the abilty to receive it?? to me I can't buy into that God has caused everything to happen, the Bible says that nothing was created without Him but where does it say that nothing was done without Him. If He cause adam to partake of the Fruit then adam was not responsible, If He forces someone to be in then it is not faith. It would be His will, then it should say by His will we are saved, can anything happen that is not the will of God, was it will that hilter kill millions of jews or was it is will that 911 happened, does He cause these evil things if so doesn't that make Him evil, or does He allow these evil things to happen. did God make satan attack Job or did He allow satan to attack job, did He make the serpent temp eve or did he allow it to happen? did Jesus die in vain or did some mankind make His death to be in vain?? I believe that He died for the Whole world as the Bible says, will the whole world be saved. nope some are already cast out into outer darkness!!

would the elect be consider as lost :

Matthew 18:11
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
KJV

are we not as a whole world Lost, without Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, we are condemnned already if we believe not. are the elect the only ones that are lost if Jesus came to save to lost, isn't this what a calvinist would have to say that Jesus only came for the world of the elect, thus making the the elect as the only ones lost. so what would that make an atheist or a non-elect? I don't know if I have ever saw matt 18:11 in a discussion on limited atonement, what is your take on this verse, does not the lost include every man between adam and me?

 

[98cwitr]

Then why isn't universalism true if unlimited atonement is true?

 

[iLogos]

I have an issue with your view "died for all" because even the verse you give says otherwise..

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

did he die for those not saved too? Or just those his Father gave him?

Then why did he not pray for them?

(Joh 17:9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 

[98cwitr]

Not that I don't agree with your view...but Christ does go on to pray for the world as a whole in verses 20-26. Christ's hope is for the whole world to believe.

Unfortunately, simple belief (as mentioned above) doesn't save a person...but rebirth in the Spirit through real faith (Hebrews 11) is what saves...Christ saves. Not that Christ doesn't already know this though, but for His love of Truth, He wants it to be known. At least that's my understanding of the prayer.

 

[twin1954]

I have an issue with your view "died for all" because even the verse you give says otherwise..

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

did he die for those not saved too? Or just those his Father gave him?

Then why did he not pray for them?

(Joh 17:9) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Are you really interested in understanding particular redemption? If you are I am willing to do my best to show you the Scriptural doctrine. If you are just wanting to debate please don't waste my time.

 

[DeaconDean]

John Gill comments:

Ver. 9. I pray for them[SIZE=+1],.... This is to be understood of Christ, not as God; for as such he is the object of prayer; nor need he pray to any other; nor is there any superior to him under that consideration to pray unto; but as man and Mediator: nor is his praying any argument against his deity; nor proof of inferiority to his Father with respect to his divine nature; since it is not in that, but in his human, nature, that he prayed; though this may be ascribed to his whole person as Godman; hence he had the greatest qualifications and abilities for this work, and his prayers were always heard: praying, as attributed to Christ, must be restrained to his state of humiliation; prayer is never spoken of Christ but whilst he was here on earth; his intercession in heaven is never expressed by prayer; and the saints when they come thither, will have done praying, Christ whilst on earth, was an excellent pattern of prayer; of private and solitary prayer; of social prayer; for and with his disciples; of frequent and fervent prayer; of submission to the will of God in prayer; and of praying even for enemies: the persons he is here said to pray for are his apostles; which shows their danger and their wants, his care over them, and concern for them, and his love unto them:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]I pray not for the world[SIZE=+1]; the inhabitants of it, the carnal unbelieving part of the world, which lie in sin, and will be condemned; as he died not for them, so he prayed not for them; for whom he is the propitiation, he is an advocate; and for whom he died, he makes intercession; and for no other in a spiritual saving way:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]but for them which thou hast given me[SIZE=+1]; out of the world, as distinct from them, to be saved with an everlasting salvation by him; and to be preserved safe to his kingdom and glory; for these he prays, for the conversion of them, the application of pardon to them, their final perseverance and eternal glory:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]for they are thine[SIZE=+1]; not merely by creation, and as the care of his providence, but by eternal election, and special grace in calling; which is a reason why Christ prayed for them, and an argument why the Father should, and would regard his prayers.[/SIZE]

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]Ver. 12. While I was with them in the world[SIZE=+1],.... This does not imply that Christ was not in the world now, for he was; but signifies that he was just going out of it; and that his continuance in it was very short: nor that he was, and would be no longer with his disciples; for this is to be understood of his bodily, not of his spiritual presence; in which respect Christ is with his people whilst they are on earth, and they are with him when he is in heaven:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]I kept them in thy name[SIZE=+1]; by his Father's authority and power, in his doctrine:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]those that thou gavest me I have kept[SIZE=+1]; that is, those that were given him to be his apostles;[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]and none of them is lost[SIZE=+1]; these he kept close to himself, and from the evil of the world, and from temporal and eternal ruin:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]but the son of perdition[SIZE=+1]; Judas, a child of Satan, whose name is Apollyon the destroyer, who was now about to betray his Lord and master; and was one that was appointed to eternal ruin and destruction, of which he was justly deserving; and which is no instance of the apostasy of saints, since though he was given to Christ as an apostle, yet not in eternal election, to be saved by him:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]that the Scripture might be fulfilled[SIZE=+1]; this respects either Christ's keeping of his people, and their final perseverance, whereby the Scriptures that speak of it are fulfilled; or rather the destruction of Judas, whereby such passages as speak of that, have their accomplishment, particularly Ps 109:8[SIZE=+1]; Some have thought that this only refers to the general sense of the Scriptures, both the law and prophets; that some are chosen to everlasting life, and others are appointed to wrath; that some are saved, and others lost; some sons of God, and others sons of perdition; but it rather seems to regard some particular passage or passages of Scripture relating to Judas, his character, condition and end, and which are very manifestly pointed at, in the psalm referred to;[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]"As for the servants whom I have given thee, there shall not one of them perish; for I will require them from among thy number.'' (2 Esdras 2:26)[/SIZE]

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

It seems Gill's commentary disagrees with the viewpoint of some here.

Hum...

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[iLogos]

Are you really interested in understanding particular redemption? If you are I am willing to do my best to show you the Scriptural doctrine. If you are just wanting to debate please don't waste my time.

Excuse me? I was discussing a view with another poster. If you would like to engage in the discussion, your welcome to. That's what forums are for. I am not interested in personal tutoring, but welcome open discussion. Not sure what you mean by debating, where have I gave that impression?

 

[twin1954]

Would most here agree that the day of atonement, the day the high priest went into the holy of holies with the blood of the pascal lamb, was typical of the sacrifice of Christ?

 

[DeaconDean]

Excuse me? I was discussing a view with another poster. If you would like to engage in the discussion, your welcome to. That's what forums are for. I am not interested in personal tutoring, but welcome open discussion. Not sure what you mean by debating, where have I gave that impression?

In regards to your response to twin1954, I have to ask.

Your faith icon just indicates that you are a Christian. Are you a Baptist?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[twin1954]

Or could it be limited atonement because not everyone believes? Was Christ atonement applied to any of you before you believed? that is the question that im asking.

Did God say when you see the blood I will pass over you or when I see the blood I will pass over you? Who must see the blood in order to be reconciled?

 

[iLogos]

In regards to your response to twin1954, I have to ask.

Your faith icon just indicates that you are a Christian. Are you a Baptist?

God Bless

Till all are one.

I'm non-denominational. Am I in a Baptist only forum? Sorry if I broke any rules.

 

[twin1954]

Excuse me? I was discussing a view with another poster. If you would like to engage in the discussion, your welcome to. That's what forums are for. I am not interested in personal tutoring, but welcome open discussion. Not sure what you mean by debating, where have I gave that impression?

Just wanted to help but I see that you aren't interested. Bye.

 

[DeaconDean]

I'm non-denominational. Am I in a Baptist only forum? Sorry if I broke any rules.

The Baptist only rule wasn't even on my mind.

I just thought it was funny that you feel qualified, that you have studied enough to tell us what Reformed Baptists should believe.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[iLogos]

The Baptist only rule wasn't even on my mind.

I just thought it was funny that you feel qualified, that you have studied enough to tell us what Reformed Baptists should believe.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Sorry u feel that way. I can't recall where I ever told any one here or other threads what *they* should believe. You may want to provide an example if I did. I was under the impression I was having discussions and politely too.

 

[DeaconDean]

Sorry u feel that way. I can't recall where I ever told any one here or other threads what *they* should believe. You may want to provide an example if I did. I was under the impression I was having discussions and politely too.

I never said you were nothing other than polite, and/or courteous.

I just wanted to know if you were studied enough on Reformed Theology and/or the Doctrines of Grace to inform those of us who are Reformed Baptists of just how our view of "limited atonement/particular redemption" was incorrect.

You seem to be educated enough to tell another person to more or less "butt out" as you were "discussing a view with another poster".

So it would seem that you are well versed enough to inform Reformed baptists on limited atonement/particular redemption.

All my friend and brother was doing was "Are you really interested in understanding particular redemption? If you are I am willing to do my best to show you the Scriptural doctrine."

Seems that you do not wish to know what Reformed Baptists believe regarding this.

Just an observation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[iLogos]

I never said you were nothing other than polite, and/or courteous.

I just wanted to know if you were studied enough on Reformed Theology and/or the Doctrines of Grace to inform those of us who are Reformed Baptists of just how our view of "limited atonement/particular redemption" was incorrect.

You seem to be educated enough to tell another person to more or less "butt out" as you were "discussing a view with another poster".

So it would seem that you are well versed enough to inform Reformed baptists on limited atonement/particular redemption.

All my friend and brother was doing was "Are you really interested in understanding particular redemption? If you are I am willing to do my best to show you the Scriptural doctrine."

Seems that you do not wish to know what Reformed Baptists believe regarding this.

Just an observation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Nothing like that at all. But when 1984 came out of the blue like he did, and seemed to want to teach me if I was not here to argue, I didn't really know how to take that. I was merely engaged in a discussion with a poster and next thing I knew I was being lectured

I'm always interested in what any one believes and why. I would never tell them what they should believe as you implied. I believe my response was more like "your welcome to join in" rather then "butt out"

 

[DeaconDean]

Nothing like that at all. But when 1984 came out of the blue like he did, and seemed to want to teach me if I was not here to argue, I didn't really know how to take that. I was merely engaged in a discussion with a poster and next thing I knew I was being lectured

I'm always interested in what any one believes and why. I would never tell them what they should believe as you implied. I believe my response was more like "your welcome to join in" rather then "butt out"

Then please accept my humblest apologies.

Over the last few months, we have had a flood of "Non-Denominationals and Sabbatarians" who believe it is their duty to come here and tell us how wrong our beliefs are.

I just ask that you read the rules for this area and make yourself familiar with them.

Ask all the questions you want, just do not debate them. I do not go to your area and debate there, please extend to us, the same courtesy.

God Bless

Till all are one.