"Free Will Is A Fiction"

[zoidar]

Hi again Myst33, it seems to me that the difference between believers, and those who simply "claim" to be (but are not), begins with/principally involves "regeneration" (as Tree already mentioned above) .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3, or the lack thereof. IOW, to truly be a Christian, it means that we have been quickened/regenerated/caused to be born again ("made alive" spiritually) by God, because only then can we come to "saving" faith in Him through the "gift" that He gives to all of those who are His .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8.

Yours and His,
David

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).​

I chose God before I was regenerated. After chosing God He regenerated me.

To be dead in sins simply means not born again, it has nothing to do with free will. When we choose God, God will regenerate us by grace.

 

[Gabriel12]

This is what Martin Luther said to Erasmus in his work The Bondage of the Will. This famous book was written in response to Erasmus' The Freedom of the Will. Some might be surprised, however, by the nature of their debate.

When Reformers like Luther denied the doctrine of free will, they were not denying that man needs to choose Christ in order to be saved. For the Reformers, the will was very important in salvation. Rather, the question that they concerned themselves with was this:

Does fallen man have the freedom to live a virtuous life? It was really not a question of ontological ability, but moral ability.

Erasmus and other semi-pelagians argued that fallen man maintains some spark of goodness and is able, all on his own, to recognize God, choose God, repent of his sin, and live a virtuous life. Luther, following Augustine, rather believed that man was entirely fallen and was morally unable to recognize God or to repent of his sin. In order for man to be saved, he needed for God to miraculously save him by reaching into his heart, regenerating him, and renewing his will. Only then could man freely choose God - his will being liberated by God.

Free will is a fiction not because of God's election or predestination. Free will is a fiction because fallen, sinful man hates God and is unable to freely choose him unless God changes his heart.

 

[Gabriel12]

Free will is one of mans biggest questions since the beginning of time. Religion aside, every man has wondered of his own fate, does he really have control of his own destiny?
From my standpoint I believe that free will is a matter of perception. From a humans perspective, I am writing whatever I feel like I need to say to other humans. But from HIS perspective he knows your heart and know what you are going to say before you say it. So free will,in Our finite minds, exists but in an infinite mind with infinite knowledge how can free will exist?

 

[Tree of Life]

how do we know your version of God is also not just a religious invention to devise ways of trying to control God?

The Bible.

 

[Tree of Life]

Luther believed "that man was entirely fallen and was morally unable to recognize God or to repent of his sin. In order for man to be saved, he needed for God to miraculously save him by reaching into his heart, regenerating him, and renewing his will". Which opens the door wide to the heresy of predestination, and characterizes God as an imperfect being with the same weaknesses as human beings.

Heresy of predestination? When did the RCC condemn Augustine and Aquinas as heretics?

 

[Tree of Life]

Why would be people guilty, then?

Because they freely choose sin.

 

[Tree of Life]

The people you are speaking off, were people whose hearts were not good ,were not inclined to generosity ,so they were speaking subjectively .Goodness was something they had never experienced ,so they imagined everyone was like them .

But while humanity needs Christ to climb up ,to grow and 'evolve' ,a lot of people are born with generous hearts ,which have developed by practising goodness through generations of families . No one is ever perfect enough ,but ………

Anyone who watches people from childhood can see that each one is different ,and that some are born with better intentions than others .

This is the heresy of Pelagianism.

 

[Tree of Life]

I chose God before I was regenerated. After chosing God He regenerated me.

To be dead in sins simply means not born again, it has nothing to do with free will. When we choose God, God will regenerate us by grace.

This, again, is the heresy of Pelagianism.

 

[royal priest]

The people you are speaking off, were people whose hearts were not good ,were not inclined to generosity ,so they were speaking subjectively .Goodness was something they had never experienced ,so they imagined everyone was like them .

But while humanity needs Christ to climb up ,to grow and 'evolve' ,a lot of people are born with generous hearts ,which have developed by practising goodness through generations of families . No one is ever perfect enough ,but ………

Anyone who watches people from childhood can see that each one is different ,and that some are born with better intentions than others .

Though the doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that every part of man is corrupted by sin, it recognizes that mankind is restrained from behaving according to that corruption.

 

[DamianWarS]

The Bible.

Yet the OP says nothing about it.

 

[Danielwright2311]

How can they freely choose wickedness if "sinful man hates God and is unable to freely choose him unless God changes his heart"?

God did change his heart when he sent Jesus to die for our sins, he finished it.

We all are now forgiven for our sins because there is no such thing as a perfect human being, we all sin, all.

 

[Danielwright2311]

This is what Martin Luther said to Erasmus in his work The Bondage of the Will. This famous book was written in response to Erasmus' The Freedom of the Will. Some might be surprised, however, by the nature of their debate.

When Reformers like Luther denied the doctrine of free will, they were not denying that man needs to choose Christ in order to be saved. For the Reformers, the will was very important in salvation. Rather, the question that they concerned themselves with was this:

Does fallen man have the freedom to live a virtuous life? It was really not a question of ontological ability, but moral ability.

Erasmus and other semi-pelagians argued that fallen man maintains some spark of goodness and is able, all on his own, to recognize God, choose God, repent of his sin, and live a virtuous life. Luther, following Augustine, rather believed that man was entirely fallen and was morally unable to recognize God or to repent of his sin. In order for man to be saved, he needed for God to miraculously save him by reaching into his heart, regenerating him, and renewing his will. Only then could man freely choose God - his will being liberated by God.

Free will is a fiction not because of God's election or predestination. Free will is a fiction because fallen, sinful man hates God and is unable to freely choose him unless God changes his heart.

I would rather be a slave to God then a puppet for the devil.

 

[Don Maurer]

Though the doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that every part of man is corrupted by sin, it recognizes that mankind is restrained from behaving according to that corruption.

That is not true. The term "total depravity" goes back to those who reacted against the 5 points of the Remonstrance. You will never see any such statements among those who reacted against the Remonstrance.

 

[mobius8curve]

This is what Martin Luther said to Erasmus in his work The Bondage of the Will. This famous book was written in response to Erasmus' The Freedom of the Will. Some might be surprised, however, by the nature of their debate.

When Reformers like Luther denied the doctrine of free will, they were not denying that man needs to choose Christ in order to be saved. For the Reformers, the will was very important in salvation. Rather, the question that they concerned themselves with was this:

Does fallen man have the freedom to live a virtuous life? It was really not a question of ontological ability, but moral ability.

Erasmus and other semi-pelagians argued that fallen man maintains some spark of goodness and is able, all on his own, to recognize God, choose God, repent of his sin, and live a virtuous life. Luther, following Augustine, rather believed that man was entirely fallen and was morally unable to recognize God or to repent of his sin. In order for man to be saved, he needed for God to miraculously save him by reaching into his heart, regenerating him, and renewing his will. Only then could man freely choose God - his will being liberated by God.

Free will is a fiction not because of God's election or predestination. Free will is a fiction because fallen, sinful man hates God and is unable to freely choose him unless God changes his heart.

Anyone who bothers to study Romans chapter 9 with Ephesians chapter 1 has to conclude that the free will of man thesis is totally absurd:

us-ward

 

[Tree of Life]

God did change his heart when he sent Jesus to die for our sins, he finished it.

We all are now forgiven for our sins because there is no such thing as a perfect human being, we all sin, all.

This is a mixture of universalism and mormonism. It is not biblical Christianity.

 

[Tree of Life]

That is not true. The term "total depravity" goes back to those who reacted against the 5 points of the Remonstrance. You will never see any such statements among those who reacted against the Remonstrance.

Total depravity means that sin has affected every part. It is distinguished from utter depravity which means that man is as sinful as he can possibly be.

 

[Danielwright2311]

This is a mixture of universalism and mormonism. It is not biblical Christianity.

When Jesus said it is finished and he also said if you belive I am the son of God and I rose from the dead you are saved, that is scripture.

So I guess what you are saying is if you have sin and you belive Jesus is the son of God and he died and rose then you still go to hell.

Sorry, I will listen to Jesus on this one.

 

[Tree of Life]

When Jesus said it is finished and he also said if you belive I am the son of God and I rose from the dead you are saved, that is scripture.

So I guess what you are saying is if you have sin and you belive Jesus is the son of God and he died and rose then you still go to hell.

Sorry, I will listen to Jesus on this one.

I'm sorry maybe I misunderstood you. It looked to me like you were saying that Jesus has changed every person's heart and saved every person, regardless of whether or not they repent and believe.

 

[Danielwright2311]

I'm sorry maybe I misunderstood you. It looked to me like you were saying that Jesus has changed every person's heart and saved every person, regardless of whether or not they repent and believe.

No, what I mean is

We all sin, this is why Jesus had to die, for all of us.

Its belief in him that saves us.

 

[mark kennedy]

Because they freely choose sin.

That brings us to the question of free will and salvation, since we freely chose sin, doesn't that mean we have a choice with regards to salvation? I have an answer for that by the way, just curious how you would respond.