"Free Will Is A Fiction"

aiki

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Free will is a fiction not because of God's election or predestination. Free will is a fiction because fallen, sinful man hates God and is unable to freely choose him unless God changes his heart.

The Calvinist boogeyman of Pelagius notwithstanding, I know of no place in Scripture that declares that, because fallen man is unable to change himself, he, therefore, cannot recognize this fact when God's truth reveals it to him and in humility choose to submit himself to God's saving work and spiritual transformation. It is a Calvinist assumption that "dead in trespasses and sins" means "incapable even of recognizing one is spiritually dead and in need of quickening when revealed by God's truth."

The ordo salutis of the Calvinist that requires regeneration prior to salvation makes a very strange (and, I think, unbiblical) situation where in order to recognize one must be saved, one must already be saved.

www.soteriology101.com
 
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royal priest

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That is not true. The term "total depravity" goes back to those who reacted against the 5 points of the Remonstrance. You will never see any such statements among those who reacted against the Remonstrance.
Although the idea of God's restraint on man's depraved state has advanced since the remonstrance, there is at least an acknowledgment of it in Dort's Cannons under heading three, article four:
There remain, however, in man since the fall, the glimmerings of natural light, whereby he retains some knowledge of God, of natural things, and of the differences between good and evil, and discovers some regard for virtue, good order in society, and for maintaining an orderly external deportment.
Since then, the technical distinction common among reformers is total depravity vs. utter depravity: though mankind is corrupted by sin in every facet of his being, he does not act out the full potential of his evil nature thanks to the natural and civil restraints established by the Creator.
 
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Rescued One

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If free will is fiction (not real) then we live in a world not worthy of existence. God would not waste His time on a fairy tale. He would not create "fake" relationships. He would not give His only Son to the world to die for the sins of humans that have no desire or the ability to choose Him. Think about it. God is not a puppet master.
Blessings

No one has claimed that God is a puppet master. Do you believe Ezekiel 36:26-27? Or is God not going to do that while we are in darkness? Who opens our eyes?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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No one has claimed that God is a puppet master. Do you believe Ezekiel 36:26-27? Or is God not going to do that while we are in darkness? Who opens our eyes?
JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH
 
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redleghunter

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If free will is fiction (not real) then we live in a world not worthy of existence. God would not waste His time on a fairy tale. He would not create "fake" relationships. He would not give His only Son to the world to die for the sins of humans that have no desire or the ability to choose Him. Think about it. God is not a puppet master.
Blessings
I think Tree of Life addressed this in the OP.
 
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redleghunter

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Luther believed "that man was entirely fallen and was morally unable to recognize God or to repent of his sin. In order for man to be saved, he needed for God to miraculously save him by reaching into his heart, regenerating him, and renewing his will". Which opens the door wide to the heresy of predestination, and characterizes God as an imperfect being with the same weaknesses as human beings.
The Apostle Paul and Doctor of the Church St Augustine taught this as well. Or did I miss that Augustine was labeled a heretic at some point?


CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I (Augustine)
And how you come to this conclusion is quite puzzling:

"Which opens the door wide to the heresy of predestination, and characterizes God as an imperfect being with the same weaknesses as human beings."

Actually predestination was confirmed at the Council of Orange. And the doctrine which makes God as a bystander to His own plan of salvation is the Pelagian and semi-Pelagian heresies.
 
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redleghunter

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The New Testament really doesn't spend much time on human will, it has much to say about the will of the Father, Jesus was big on that.

Good point. I did a key search of the NT using "will of" and here are the results:

Will of
 
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mark kennedy

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Good point. I did a key search of the NT using "will of" and here are the results:

Will of
This is what I had in mind:

Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. (John 6:37-39)

Not only does that speak strongly to eternal security, Jesus emphasizes the will of the Father which was the whole reason for his ministry, and his incarnation for that matter. Something about God's sovereignty here that is a pretty consistent principle in the New Testament.
 
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redleghunter

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I chose God before I was regenerated. After chosing God He regenerated me.
How do you know this? Maybe God chose you and you think you chose Him first? I mean we are speaking of God here.
 
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redleghunter

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The ordo salutis of the Calvinist that requires regeneration prior to salvation makes a very strange (and, I think, unbiblical) situation where in order to recognize one must be saved, one must already be saved.
Ordo salutus is a logical order and not a time sequence of events. Meaning the ordo salutus explains the logical order of one event.

Paul provides a condensed form of the ordo salutis in Romans 8:29–30. He tells us that God foreknew certain people and predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His Son. Since God exists in eternity, foreknowledge and predestination are not sequential actions on His part, but logical aspects of His decree. Romans 8:30 says that God called these people to His kingdom, and that those who are called are justified. Since we are justified by faith, we can insert faith between calling and justification. In fact, God’s inward call produces regeneration in us, which causes us to cry out in repentance and faith, so that we are justified.

There is no time sequence in this, as if we could be called for a while before we are regenerated, and then live regenerated without having repented, and then we could repent but not turn to Christ, and then finally come to justifying faith. No, they are all logical steps in the same event. When God calls us we are immediately regenerated, and we turn from sin to God in one action, which justifies us. And those who are justified are immediately glorified in the sense of being adopted as children of God.
Ligonier Ministries
 
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redleghunter

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No one has claimed that God is a puppet master. Do you believe Ezekiel 36:26-27? Or is God not going to do that while we are in darkness? Who opens our eyes?
Well said. What's interesting about the Ezekiel 36 passage is YHWH explains His purpose for doing all the "I will" statements.

Ezekiel 36: NASB

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
 
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zoidar

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How do you know this? Maybe God chose you and you think you chose Him first? I mean we are speaking of God here.

I experienced the new birth, regeneration when I chose to pray to God for forgiveness. Was I regenerated before the prayer? I think not or I was regenerated twice.
 
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This is what Martin Luther said to Erasmus in his work The Bondage of the Will. This famous book was written in response to Erasmus' The Freedom of the Will. Some might be surprised, however, by the nature of their debate.

When Reformers like Luther denied the doctrine of free will, they were not denying that man needs to choose Christ in order to be saved. For the Reformers, the will was very important in salvation. Rather, the question that they concerned themselves with was this:

Does fallen man have the freedom to live a virtuous life? It was really not a question of ontological ability, but moral ability.

Erasmus and other semi-pelagians argued that fallen man maintains some spark of goodness and is able, all on his own, to recognize God, choose God, repent of his sin, and live a virtuous life. Luther, following Augustine, rather believed that man was entirely fallen and was morally unable to recognize God or to repent of his sin. In order for man to be saved, he needed for God to miraculously save him by reaching into his heart, regenerating him, and renewing his will. Only then could man freely choose God - his will being liberated by God.

Free will is a fiction not because of God's election or predestination. Free will is a fiction because fallen, sinful man hates God and is unable to freely choose him unless God changes his heart.
Free will is real. But lost to the unconverted sinner.
One is a prisoner to sin .
Untill they repent and The Lord Jesus sets us free.
Then ..we are free to choose to Do rightoueness every day of our life .

If we do not have such freedom then we are not yet In Christ.
One of the greatest contradictio s i have heard and continue to hear is that one is still just a sinner. (Knowingly willfully )But saved.
That is a lie staight out of a devils mouth.
 
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mark kennedy

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I experienced the new birth, regeneration when I chose to pray to God for forgiveness. Was I regenerated before the prayer? I think not or I was regenerated twice.
Oh my, but that is an interesting question. There was a time of decision, new birth and regeneration, that's what the gospel is all about, I'd love to hear your testimony some time. Let me ask you this, before you had your time of decision, God brought you under conviction right? It's not a trick question, I have a point.
 
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royal priest

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How do you know this? Maybe God chose you and you think you chose Him first? I mean we are speaking of God here.
1. I sought the Lord, and afterward I knew
he moved my soul to seek him, seeking me.
It was not I that found, O Savior true;
no, I was found of thee.

2. Thou didst reach forth thy hand and mine enfold;
I walked and sank not on the storm-vexed sea.
'Twas not so much that I on thee took hold,
as thou, dear Lord, on me.

3. I find, I walk, I love, but oh, the whole
of love is but my answer, Lord, to thee!
For thou wert long beforehand with my soul;
always thou lovedst me.
--United Methodist Hymnal
 
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Don Maurer

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Although the idea of God's restraint on man's depraved state has advanced since the remonstrance, there is at least an acknowledgment of it in Dort's Cannons under heading three, article four:
There remain, however, in man since the fall, the glimmerings of natural light, whereby he retains some knowledge of God, of natural things, and of the differences between good and evil, and discovers some regard for virtue, good order in society, and for maintaining an orderly external deportment.
Since then, the technical distinction common among reformers is total depravity vs. utter depravity: though mankind is corrupted by sin in every facet of his being, he does not act out the full potential of his evil nature thanks to the natural and civil restraints established by the Creator.

OK if I may be permitted to quote the canons from my own web site... Canons of Dort

Article 4: The Inadequacy of the Light of Nature
There is, to be sure, a certain light of nature remaining in all people after the fall, by virtue of which they retain some notions about God, natural things, and the difference between what is moral and immoral, and demonstrate a certain eagerness for virtue and for good outward behavior. But this light of nature is far from enabling humans to come to a saving knowledge of God and conversion to him—so far, in fact, that they do not use it rightly even in matters of nature and society. Instead, in various ways they completely distort this light, whatever its precise character, and suppress it in unrighteousness. In doing so all people render themselves without excuse before God.
THE CANON
I would read this to say that there is a remnant of the "image of God" after the fall, or as Article 4 expresses "a certain light of nature remaining in all people after the fall." Article 4 goes on to express where this "light of nature" is expressed. This light allows all people to have some notions about God, and some knowledge of moral good and evil.

The article goes on to say that this light does not extend to any sort of "enabling humans to come to a saving knowledge of god and conversion to him." Furthermore, the article expresses that this light is "completely distorted" and "suppress it in unrighteousness."

COMMENTS
Your statement that I reacted against was this... "it recognizes that mankind is restrained from behaving according to that corruption." While I agree that mankind has the ability to know about good and evil, and even have some concepts of deity on the basis of natural revelation, I do not agree that this provides mankind any ability restrain his behavior." That concept is not in the canons of Dort, nor in the 5 points against the Remonstrants, not is it in scripture.
 
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royal priest

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OK if I may be permitted to quote the canons from my own web site... Canons of Dort

Article 4: The Inadequacy of the Light of Nature
There is, to be sure, a certain light of nature remaining in all people after the fall, by virtue of which they retain some notions about God, natural things, and the difference between what is moral and immoral, and demonstrate a certain eagerness for virtue and for good outward behavior. But this light of nature is far from enabling humans to come to a saving knowledge of God and conversion to him—so far, in fact, that they do not use it rightly even in matters of nature and society. Instead, in various ways they completely distort this light, whatever its precise character, and suppress it in unrighteousness. In doing so all people render themselves without excuse before God.
THE CANON
I would read this to say that there is a remnant of the "image of God" after the fall, or as Article 4 expresses "a certain light of nature remaining in all people after the fall." Article 4 goes on to express where this "light of nature" is expressed. This light allows all people to have some notions about God, and some knowledge of moral good and evil.

The article goes on to say that this light does not extend to any sort of "enabling humans to come to a saving knowledge of god and conversion to him." Furthermore, the article expresses that this light is "completely distorted" and "suppress it in unrighteousness."

COMMENTS
Your statement that I reacted against was this... "it recognizes that mankind is restrained from behaving according to that corruption." While I agree that mankind has the ability to know about good and evil, and even have some concepts of deity on the basis of natural revelation, I do not agree that this provides mankind any ability restrain his behavior." That concept is not in the canons of Dort, nor in the 5 points against the Remonstrants, not is it in scripture.
I know what you mean. God's restraint on the reprobate produces mere worldly sorrow.
 
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