"Free Will Is A Fiction"

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I recommend two books by David Bercot who has studied the early Christians for over 20 years.

"Will the theologians please sit down" and "Will the real heretics please stand up"

From the latter Bercot writes:

Unfortionately for us, the New Testament wasn't written by Western minds, but by Hellenic Eastern minds. Augustine himself has never mastered Greek. This is highly significant, because Greek is the language of the New Testament and the vast majority of early Christian writings. Perhaps that's why Augustine departed from early Christianity in so many areas-more than any other Christian teacher of his time. It's unfortunate he had such a brilliant mind, because as a result of his genius, he took the entire Western Church with him.

The list of doctrines and practices that Augustine either initiated or gave his authority to is impressively long. The following is only a partial list of what he taught:

- that Mary was born and lived her entire life without sin; 1
- that unbaptized infants are eternally damned ;2
- that sex within marriage is an inherently debased act ;3
- that war can be holy ;4
- that there will be no litteral millenium ;5
- that there is no forgiveness of sins outside the Catholic church ;6
- that some of the practices and teachings of the apostles no longer apply to Christians because the apostles lived in a different age ;7
- that there is a purgatorial fire ;8
- that the dead can benefit from the sacrifice of the Eucharist and ;9
- that it's proper for a "Christian" state to persecute heretics ;10

Notes
1. Augustine - On nature and grace chap. 42
2. Augustine - On forgivness of sins and baptism of infants bk. 1, chap. 21.
3. Augustine - Enchiridion chaps. 26, 34 ...
4. Augustine - The city of God bk. 1. chap. 21
5. Ibid., bk 20, chap 7.
6. Augustine - Enchiridion chap. 65; On marriage and concupiscence.
7. Augustine - The correction of the Donatists Chap 5.
8. Justo L. Gonzalez - A history of Christian thought, vol. 2 (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1970), p. 53; Earle E. Cairns- Christianity through the centuries (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1954), p. 161.
9. Augustine - Enchiridion Chap 110.
10. Augustine - Donatists chap. 2.


What Augustine taught about salvation

1. As a result of Adam's sin, man is totally depraved. He is absolutely unable to do anything good or save himself. In fact he's even unable to believe or have faith in God.

2. Therefor, humans can believe in God or have faith in Him only if by grace He first gives them this faith or belief. Man has no free will to choose either to believe or not to believe.

3. God's decision to save one person and condemn another, to give faith to one person and withhold it from another is totally arbitrary. There is nothing we can do to influence Gods choice.

4. Before the creation or the world, God arbitrarely predestined (not simply foreknew) who would be saved and who would be damned. There is nothing we can do in this life or the next to change these matters.

5. The elect, those who were predestined for salvation, cannot possibly lose their salvation. Those predestined for damnation cannot possibly be saved.

6. No one can know whether or not he or she is of the elect. God gives many people the gift of faith so that they believe, are baptized, walk in Jesus' commandments. However some of them have not been predestined salvation and ultimately won't persevere. The gift of perseverance is a separate gift from that or faith. We have no way of knowing who in the church has been given the gift of perserverance.

7. Salvation is totally a matter of grace. Faith is a gift from God. Obedience is a gift of God. Perserverance is a gift from God.

Augustine managed to to persuade most of the bishops of North Africa, and his views ended up prevailing. However, by overreacting to the errors of Pelagianism. Augustine obliterated the original Early Christian teachings of free will and man's involvement in salvation. In their place was the cold, grim doctrine of absolute predestination.


Good Day,

Thanks I will read it over... most of this work I have readily available.

I am sure that we will be in disagreement on some of the things raised by David.

"Cold and Grim" have you read both his works (Augustine) on predestination, surely "cold and grim" is over play by David.

Edited ..

Not getting a good feeling about this book.

David Bercot Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up | David Bercot Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs - early christian church history, the early church fathers, church history for beginners, RA Baker, Al Baker, Alan Baker


Thanks again.

In Him,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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My point was that anyone can become a sheep of Jesus. Sure Jesus died for his sheep, but also for everyone to have the possibility to become his sheep. In one sense he died for the sheep, in another meaning for everyone as an atoning sacrifice for the whole world (john 3:16).


Good Day, Zoidar

I will bite... show me from scripture how a goat becomes a sheep.


John 3:16 tells us God love the world.. and atoned for believers (those doing the verb believing)

In your view the atoning work of Christ really atoned for the sin of every single person in the world.

Are you a universallist??
 
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zoidar

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Good Day, Zoidar

I will bite... show me from scripture how a goat becomes a sheep.

Good day Bill!

Sheep and goats is as you know symbolism. Sheep are also put in opposition to wolves (Matthew 10:16).

Jesus calls the Jews "non-sheep" and tells them how to become sheep in John 10, but they hardened their hearts, didn't want to listen. Why? Maybe because they liked more to be approved by men than of God (John 12:43) .

I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39 Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.

In Mark 6 Jesus calls the crowd sheep, yet all of them can't possibly be saved in the end. So here he calls even those who eventually won't be saved sheep.

33 The people saw them going, and many recognized them and ran there together on foot from all the cities, and got there ahead of them. 34 When Jesus went ashore, He saw a large crowd, and He felt compassion for them because they were like sheep without a shepherd; and He began to teach them many things.

In your view the atoning work of Christ really atoned for the sin of every single person in the world.

Are you a universallist??

No, I'm not a universalist.

The Early Christians believed that Jesus died on the cross to crush satan and all power he had over all men. How could this have been done if he didn't die for all sins? In that case satan still wouldn't be fully conquered. The point of the cross is that Jesus won a complete victory over the devil, sin, death and evil.

I believe that Jesus cast out the devil (john 12:21), took all sins of the world on him so he could set anyone free that believes in him. Think about it. If Jesus didn't die for all men, then he didn't and don't have the power to set every kind of person free.
 
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Gabriel12

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Foreknowledge, which can be termed as "infinite knowledge", in my opinion has no bearing on our free will. We can see it in our own finite lives examples of knowing something in advance will result in a certain outcome. In simplistic terms, its like taking a step, it will result in a forward or backward motion. We do it freely and we know the outcome ahead of time, motion. So if God already knows the outcome of our actions, it does not mean that He interfered with our will to decided to take that step it just means that He knows the outcome just like we do.
 
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Gabriel12

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I agree with you. The infite does not have an effect on our path. He just knows the path. But your forgetting about perspective. We perceive every motion and take each motion freely. But knowing the outcome is only from His perspective. I’m am freely taking this step to speak to you. Forward or backward. Only he knows. But what one should find peace in. Is that he knows what is to happen with us. And having faith in that, embodies the trust in the future wether it be on this earth or past it.
 
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