Free Will and Grace together

[PuerAzaelis]

Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will. No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man's own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27

It is, however, to be feared lest all these and similar testimonies of Holy Scripture (and undoubtedly there are a great many of them), in the maintenance of free will, be understood in such a way as to leave no room for God's assistance and grace in leading a godly life and a good conversation, to which the eternal reward is due; and lest poor wretched man, when he leads a good life and performs good works (or rather thinks that he leads a good life and performs good works), should dare to glory in himself and not in the Lord, and to put his hope of righteous living in himself alone; so as to be followed by the prophet Jeremiah's malediction when he says, Cursed is the man who has hope in man, and makes strong the flesh of his arm, and whose heart departs from the Lord. Jeremiah 17:5

Therefore, my dearly beloved, as we have now proved by our former testimonies from Holy Scripture that there is in man a free determination of will for living rightly and acting rightly; so now let us see what are the divine testimonies concerning the grace of God, without which we are not able to do any good thing.

CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

 

[Albion]

Is there a question here?

 

[PuerAzaelis]

I suppose the question is whether we are meant to agree with Augustine or not.

 

[com7fy8]

It looks like he is saying that man has his own will which is free to choose what he will do, but in choosing to do good God wants him to do it willingly, cheerfully. Even so, he needs how God's grace makes him able to do what is good.

Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will.

Yes, the Bible has things that tell us to do things God wants. And Augustine is claiming we get our own selves to will what God wants. But >

Isaiah 55:11 says

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Isaiah 55:11)

This says God's word produces what He wants.

And I think of how Jesus was in that boat, and Jesus spoke for the raging sea and wind to become calm. The air and water did not make the choice, themselves; Jesus spoke it and then God made it happen. The word of Jesus went forth from His mouth, and then was when the air and water obeyed Jesus.

Now, of course, we are not unconscious like air and water, but I see that it works like this, for us. God's word comes to us and God has His word work in us what God means. And if this is so, we do not produce our own willing, then, but God's word works in us what God wants . . . what God means, Himself. And we have scriptures which to me mean this is correct >

In the second epistle of Thessalonians our Apostle Paul speaks of >

"the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe." (in 1 Thessalonians 2:13)

This does not say we work what is God's, in us. So, what about working our own selves to will, then? >

It is written >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, even our willing, I see from this scripture, is produced by God . . . if we are willing what is really His will.

Now, it appears that Augustine claims a human has the capability to get oneself to will what is good. But the Bible does not say a human has goodness of one's own self, to get one's own self to choose what God wants. And, again, Philippians 2:13 says God works a person to will what pleases God.

How can you, at any moment, perfectly know what God at each moment wants you to do and will in you lead you to do? How can we at each moment be fast enough to figure out what God in us will have us doing, next?? How can you make your own self the way He wants you to be, for doing it?

Paul says God does the work. Plus > we have >

"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:4-5)

So, if you got to know these scriptures before you were told ideas like free will and predestination, what would you think? Augustine claims he is giving what numerous scriptures say. But do you think he is saying what these scriptures say??

 

[rnmomof7]

Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will. No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man's own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27

It is, however, to be feared lest all these and similar testimonies of Holy Scripture (and undoubtedly there are a great many of them), in the maintenance of free will, be understood in such a way as to leave no room for God's assistance and grace in leading a godly life and a good conversation, to which the eternal reward is due; and lest poor wretched man, when he leads a good life and performs good works (or rather thinks that he leads a good life and performs good works), should dare to glory in himself and not in the Lord, and to put his hope of righteous living in himself alone; so as to be followed by the prophet Jeremiah's malediction when he says, Cursed is the man who has hope in man, and makes strong the flesh of his arm, and whose heart departs from the Lord. Jeremiah 17:5

Therefore, my dearly beloved, as we have now proved by our former testimonies from Holy Scripture that there is in man a free determination of will for living rightly and acting rightly; so now let us see what are the divine testimonies concerning the grace of God, without which we are not able to do any good thing.

CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

Man will always act according to his preferences ... The question is what forms our preferences

 

[BBAS 64]

Man will always act according to his preferences ... The question is what forms our preferences

Good Day, rnmomof7

and when men loves darkness... he does "darkness" because he loves it and can do no other. His hated of light forces him back to that which he loves.

In Him

Bill

 

[Albion]

I suppose the question is whether we are meant to agree with Augustine or not.

I've heard good things about him! That's for sure.

 

[tdidymas]

Now wherever it is said, Do not do this, and Do not do that, and wherever there is any requirement in the divine admonitions for the work of the will to do anything, or to refrain from doing anything, there is at once a sufficient proof of free will. No man, therefore, when he sins, can in his heart blame God for it, but every man must impute the fault to himself. Nor does it detract at all from a man's own will when he performs any act in accordance with God. Indeed, a work is then to be pronounced a good one when a person does it willingly; then, too, may the reward of a good work be hoped for from Him concerning whom it is written, He shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27

It is, however, to be feared lest all these and similar testimonies of Holy Scripture (and undoubtedly there are a great many of them), in the maintenance of free will, be understood in such a way as to leave no room for God's assistance and grace in leading a godly life and a good conversation, to which the eternal reward is due; and lest poor wretched man, when he leads a good life and performs good works (or rather thinks that he leads a good life and performs good works), should dare to glory in himself and not in the Lord, and to put his hope of righteous living in himself alone; so as to be followed by the prophet Jeremiah's malediction when he says, Cursed is the man who has hope in man, and makes strong the flesh of his arm, and whose heart departs from the Lord. Jeremiah 17:5

Therefore, my dearly beloved, as we have now proved by our former testimonies from Holy Scripture that there is in man a free determination of will for living rightly and acting rightly; so now let us see what are the divine testimonies concerning the grace of God, without which we are not able to do any good thing.

CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

Free will is commonly not well defined. Does it mean that we all have a will that is free from God? That is, completely detached? I contend that we all have a will, but is not free in that regard. So it begs the question, just exactly how "free" is it? If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in our hearts, then His divine influence is strong enough to sway our will in such a way that we believers don't even want a will that is free from God.

John 3:19 says, "But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." Believers want to know that God is working His will in them. In effect, we see "free will" (autonomy) as an enemy to be fought against, as a problem to be solved. It is certainly no solution, as Rom. 3:10-18 testifies. IMO autonomous free will is the essence of the sinful nature.

I want my will to be in perfect alignment with God's authority. I certainly understand the unbeliever who wants his own autonomy, and considers it his most precious commodity, because I used to be one, and remember thinking along those lines. Insomuch as my will opposes God's will, I consider that as residual influence of the sinful nature, and want it eradicated from my life and thinking. Rom. 6:11 "Consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." My desire is to be Christlike in every way, and to confidently say with Him "I do whatever I see my Father doing." (Jn. 5:19).

I do not deny culpability for sins committed. However, if someone concludes that not having a free will in regard to the spirit world is denying culpability, I believe it to be a false conclusion to what is said. It is equivalent to people opposing Paul's gospel of grace, and claiming he is teaching "let us do evil that good may come" (Rom. 3:8). I think such a conclusion lacks understanding in addition to lacking faith.

So do you think I am in agreement with St. Augustine?
TD