Working out : Your Salvation

[ozso]

Salvation is Jesus on the Cross.
That is not your discipleship.

God, in Christ, dying for your sin, so that God can give you "the gift of righteousness", which allows God to have you.

That is the "finished work of Jesus on the Cross".

That is : SALVATiON


After you have that.........you then do all that stuff.


Most believers do not understand that Salvation is the Cross and discipleship is what you do, AFTER you have received what God did for you on the Cross.

Once a believer understands that distinction, they have begun to understand the walk of faith, correctly, and from THERE, begins their discipleship.

Sanctification isn't discipleship. Discipleship is what you do for God. Sanctification is what God does for us.

 

[Chaleb]

Sanctification isn't discipleship. Discipleship is what you do for God. Sanctification is what God does for us.

Exactly.

Here is a thought....... 1 Corinthians 1:30


Here is another...

How Righteous is God's Righteousness?
How Holy is it?
And when we are born again, God INSTANTLY gives us "the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"< that is Christ's very own RIGHTEOUSNESS< that is how we become...

"a NEW CREATION...... in Christ"......"made Righteous"> = BORN AGAIN.


Welcome To : Salvation

Its a "GIFT".

"the gift of Salvation"
"The gift of Righteousness".

 

[ozso]

Exactly.

Here is a thought....... 1 Corinthians 1:30


Here is another...

How Righteous is God's Righteousness?
How Holy is it?
And when we are born again, God INSTANTLY gives us "the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS"< that is Christ's very own RIGHTEOUSNESS< that is how we become...

"a NEW CREATION...... in Christ"......"made Righteous"> = BORN AGAIN.


Welcome To : Salvation

Its a "GIFT".

"the gift of Salvation"
"The gift of Righteousness".

After that doesn't God help us to live lives that are more spiritually fulfilling?

 

[Cassian]

Ask the "believers" here if they can lose their salvation as they have been taught by their cult.

They will , most of them here, will say...."Yes, Jesus saved me....but now i have to.....do all this self effort to : stay saved.

1.) keep commandments
2.) keep the law
3.) endure to the end
4.) hold unto my faith
5.) water baptism saved me
6.) make sure that I abide in Jesus


See all that SELF EFFORT, that you will be told by most here, they have to do, to go to heaven, and stay saved.


Arn't you one of them who believes that Jesus can't keep you saved, unless you do your LIST?

What's on your list, Cassian?

Penance?
enduring to the end?
dying in a state of grace?
keeping the commandments of Jesus?
water baptism?
speaking in tongues?

I bet your LIST is a long one.

But here is the thing....

All those works, didn't die on the Cross for your sin. All those works are just SELF Righteousness., and that = ZERO faith in Christ.


How do you know when a "believer" has real faith and not fake faith?

They will tell you that only JESUS Keeps them saved.

The rest, the "fallen from Grace' and the rest of the self savers, will tell you that they have to do their LIST to stay saved.

You have a gross misunderstanding of scripture both in regard to what Christ accomplished and man's response to the salvation from death and the power of sin. We are NOT saved from sin. We are saved from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death, meaning the loss of union/communion/fellowship with God.
You also have a gross misunderstanding of the difference between Works of the Law, and Works of Faith.
The fact that you even hold to this OSAS idea of irresistable grace is not scriptural either. No believer has inherited salvation during his lifetime. That inheritance is given at the end of ones life and at the Judgement. Jesus does not keep you saved, the Holy Spirit does not keep you saved. God does not keep you saved. It is a mutual relationship with man being the inconsistent element. so it is man who will determine if he is saved or not. That is what the judgement is about. God is not judging Himself, but what you did, your deeds done in faith or not.
The works of faith can be summed up in what could be called the Law of Love. Man was created with an independent will. He can change his mind at any moment of time in this life. The Holy Spirit cannot prevent you from leaving the fold. He will continue to lead you back, however the final arbiter of your salvation is YOU.
What is the ONLY thing that can lead anyone astray? Sin. You have this unscriptural idea that you don't sin. There is no man that sins not, save Jesus. Being IN Christ does not prevent you from sinning. But Being In Christ you have the gift of repentance. A believer can seek forgiveness of their sins and they will be remitted. Unforgiven sin remains with you and will convict you. So, if you think you cannot sin, you deceive yourself I John 1:8.

 

[ozso]

That inheritance is given at the end of ones life and at the Judgement. Jesus does not keep you saved, the Holy Spirit does not keep you saved. God does not keep you saved. It is a mutual relationship with man being the inconsistent element. so it is man who will determine if he is saved or not. That is what the judgement is about. God is not judging Himself, but what you did, your deeds done in faith or not.

What about: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13?

Have - ἔχετε (echete) from echó - to have, hold - I have, hold, possess.

That certainly sounds like John is saying we already have eternal life, not that we will be given eternal life at the Judgement.

 

[Cassian]

What about: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13?

Have - ἔχετε (echete) from echó - to have, hold - I have, hold, possess.

That certainly sounds like John is saying we already have eternal life, not that we will be given eternal life at the Judgement.

It is more that you can have assurance of eternal life. That sentence is in the present tense. Believe is an continuous action verb. If you remain, if you are faithful you shall inherit eternal life I Pet 1:3-5.
This life of faith is a journey. That journey is a test of one's faith. The same test that Adam had, by the way. We live in a fallen world, with a fallen nature, and Satan seeking to devour any that take his bidding. Scripture is full of exhortations to watch, to pray, to abide, to keep ones faith. Scripture gives many examples of believers who have fallen and did not repent,

 

[Bro.T]

Nothing is gained by accepting Jesus into your life.
As a matter of fact, thats a very meaningless phrase you posted.

God said you are to Receive Jesus as your Savior, as your sin bearer, and as your redeemer.
That is quite different .

Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. People you must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. And it’s strange that most people who consider themselves “once saved always saved” are the same ones that tell you that God’s commandments were nailed to the cross. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY.


(v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that once you are quote “saved” that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can. Like I said earlier that just as you choose by your own free will to start serving the lord, you can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul. And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.

Paul said in (Phil. 2:12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Now if you need not work, then why is Paul telling you to “WORK” out your own salvation, and pay close attention because he also says with “fear and trembling”.

 

[ozso]

It is more that you can have assurance of eternal life. That sentence is in the present tense. Believe is an continuous action verb. If you remain, if you are faithful you shall inherit eternal life I Pet 1:3-5.
This life of faith is a journey. That journey is a test of one's faith. The same test that Adam had, by the way. We live in a fallen world, with a fallen nature, and Satan seeking to devour any that take his bidding. Scripture is full of exhortations to watch, to pray, to abide, to keep ones faith. Scripture gives many examples of believers who have fallen and did not repent,

Yes John establish the criteria which leads to that summation. But there are those who are among the faithful who think they're being told more than that is required for salvation. A quota of works that must be performed. The statement you made saying; "That is what the judgement is about. God is not judging Himself, but what you did, your deeds done in faith or not.". For some among the faithful it gives the image of God with a pair of scales, where your deeds of faith or not are weighed out, and if the scale tips the wrong way, angels grab you and throw you into the lake of fire. The premise that what you did and got right must outweigh what you did and got wrong.

 

[Cassian]

Yes John establish the criteria which leads to that summation. But there are those who are among the faithful who think they're being told more than that is required for salvation. A quota of works that must be performed. The statement you made saying; "That is what the judgement is about. God is not judging Himself, but what you did, your deeds done in faith or not.". For some among the faithful it gives the image of God with a pair of scales, where your deeds of faith or not are weighed out, and if the scale tips the wrong way, angels grab you and throw you into the lake of fire. The premise that what you did and got right must outweigh what you did and got wrong.

It is not a scale. For a faithful believer it should be all on one side. Those things done in the Spirit will save a person, (a good and faithful servant) the wrongs, done in the flesh have been forgiven.
Those who think they do not sin, or there is some automatic forgiveness of sin will find themselves with the one with one talent and hid it, or the five unprepared virgins, or unfaithful servant, and several other examples.

 

[ozso]

It is not a scale. For a faithful believer it should be all on one side. Those things done in the Spirit will save a person, (a good and faithful servant) the wrongs, done in the flesh have been forgiven.
Those who think they do not sin, or there is some automatic forgiveness of sin will find themselves with the one with one talent and hid it, or the five unprepared virgins, or unfaithful servant, and several other examples.

The faithful believer is who I'm talking about. Now you're talking about things done in the Spirit. Is that supposed to mean full time praying, bible reading, witnessing, caring for others, and working in the ministry? Because those are things a lot of faithful believers are going to associate with things done in the Spirit. As opposed to having an ordinary job like working at Amazon, and then coming home and watching a football game. Some actually claim that is sinning. Many are called, but only a few are chosen. Only the holiest of the holiest of the holiest, will make the cut. Let's see you watched an average of 3 hours of (rated G) TV per day, but only prayed 1 hour per day. Into the Lake of Fire you go.

Now I myself understand what you're saying perfectly well because I'm a mature Christian who's been taught well (which includes teaching from Eastern Orthodox clergy). But I think there's many who see it the way I described above.

 

[Strong in Him]

Paul wrote "God has made Jesus to be sin for Us"

Paul wrote "He that is dead is freed from Sin".

Paul wrote. "the old man is crucified with Christ".

Paul wrote. "Christ always gives me the Victory". over the flesh the world and the devil.

Paul wrote "sin shall not have dominion over you, as you are not under the Law, but under Grace"..


So, BobRyan, as you are sinning and confessing, its because your understanding of what it means to be a "new Creation in Christ", is not correct.

As I said in another thread, which you have not answered; are you sinless in thought, word and deed 24/7?

 

[Cassian]

The faithful believer is who I'm talking about. Now you're talking about things done in the Spirit. Is that supposed to mean full time praying, bible reading, witnessing, caring for others, and working in the ministry? Because those are things a lot of faithful believers are going to associate with things done in the Spirit. As opposed to having an ordinary job like working at Amazon, and then coming home and watching a football game. Some actually claim that is sinning. Many are called, but only a few are chosen. Only the holiest of the holiest of the holiest, will make the cut. Let's see you watched an average of 3 hours of (rated G) TV per day, but only prayed 1 hour per day. Into the Lake of Fire you go.

Now I myself understand what you're saying perfectly well because I'm a mature Christian who's been taught well (which includes teaching from Eastern Orthodox clergy). But I think there's many who see it the way I described above.

We should be practicing Christians in whatever endeavor we are involved with. Being in the Spirit is not praying or bible reading or even going to Church. Living in the Spirit is working to refrain from sin as much as possible. To eliminate bad habits.
Most of our sins are done unconsciously, without thought, only later realizing it was a sin. A lot of our actions are impulsive rather than deliberate. It is more following the virtues of humility, liberality, chastity, mildness, temperance, happiness, diligence over against the opposites of pride, greed, lust, anger, gluttony, envy, and sloth.
We can also include the gifts of the Holy Spirit of wisdom, Counsel, Fortitude, piety, fear of God, with fruits of the Spirit, of Love, Joy, Peace, kindness, Long suffering, fidelity, Modesty.
Being faithful is not easy which is why we continually need to seek forgiveness to remain IN Christ.

 

[SamInNi]

This thread will remind some of us that one of most unfortunate problems the true Church faces is flawed teaching. To put it another way, we are too often exposed to those who say they are teachers but have not been given that vital gift from God. These aren’t spiritually blind non-believers who try to bring “destructive heresies”, and “doctrines of demons” into our local assemblies. Motivated by good intentions they are probably our brothers or sisters who have convinced themselves they can teach.

But, “Not many should become teachers…” (James 3:1). (The very next verse says, “For we all stumble in many ways…” Indeed we do!) The gift of teaching is given to “some”. God gives each local assembly “some [who are] pastors and teachers”. These men are used by God to equip “the saints for the work of service” and to build up "the body of Christ” (read Ephesians 4:11-16).

Those who teach must be based in a local assembly where they are subject to the leadership. They must be accountable in the use of their God-given gift. The true gift of teaching is rooted in local assemblies and flows out from there. Authentic teaching promotes “the unity of the faith… the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (v. 13).

Sound, balanced and mature instruction in a local assembly always results in doctrinal stability: “As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine…” (v. 14). Unsound teaching can be unbalanced, divisive, at times disdainful, and often deaf to correction...

 

[ozso]

We should be practicing Christians in whatever endeavor we are involved with. Being in the Spirit is not praying or bible reading or even going to Church. Living in the Spirit is working to refrain from sin as much as possible. To eliminate bad habits.
Most of our sins are done unconsciously, without thought, only later realizing it was a sin. A lot of our actions are impulsive rather than deliberate. It is more following the virtues of humility, liberality, chastity, mildness, temperance, happiness, diligence over against the opposites of pride, greed, lust, anger, gluttony, envy, and sloth.
We can also include the gifts of the Holy Spirit of wisdom, Counsel, Fortitude, piety, fear of God, with fruits of the Spirit, of Love, Joy, Peace, kindness, Long suffering, fidelity, Modesty.
Being faithful is not easy which is why we continually need to seek forgiveness to remain IN Christ.

That's much clearer and doesn't leave much room for misunderstanding.

 

[ozso]

This thread will remind some of us that one of most unfortunate problems the true Church faces is flawed teaching. To put it another way, we are too often exposed to those who say they are teachers but have not been given that vital gift from God. These aren’t spiritually blind non-believers who try to bring “destructive heresies”, and “doctrines of demons” into our local assemblies. Motivated by good intentions they are probably our brothers or sisters who have convinced themselves they can teach.

But, “Not many should become teachers…” (James 3:1). (The very next verse says, “For we all stumble in many ways…” Indeed we do!) The gift of teaching is given to “some”. God gives each local assembly “some [who are] pastors and teachers”. These men are used by God to equip “the saints for the work of service” and to build up "the body of Christ” (read Ephesians 4:11-16).

Those who teach must be based in a local assembly where they are subject to the leadership. They must be accountable in the use of their God-given gift. The true gift of teaching is rooted in local assemblies and flows out from there. Authentic teaching promotes “the unity of the faith… the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (v. 13).

Sound, balanced and mature instruction in a local assembly always results in doctrinal stability: “As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine…” (v. 14). Unsound teaching can be unbalanced, divisive, at times disdainful, and often deaf to correction...

Personally I'd much rather be viewed as explaining things to the best of my ability and knowledge, rather than teaching and being a teacher. As you say, I don’t have the credentials. And if I had the gift, I'd probably have obtained those credentials by now.

 

[ozso]

As I said in another thread, which you have not answered; are you sinless in thought, word and deed 24/7?

I might be wrong, but I think the idea is we're technically without sin. So if we say tell a lie, that's already been covered under the blood of Christ. We have already been forgiven of anything we do. That it's not seen as sin by God. That all God ever sees when looking at us is Jesus.

 

[Chaleb]

I might be wrong, but I think the idea is we're technically without sin.

"God made Jesus to be sin for us".. is not just a technicality.

Its a Born Again, reality.

That "Jesus is THE one time ETERNAL SACRIFICE for all sin", is not a myth, its in fact the Cross of Christ.

Do you believe it yet, reader?


That 2 Corinthians 5:19. is as TRUE as God is Real, is THE fact of Salvation.

 

[Cassian]

I might be wrong, but I think the idea is we're technically without sin. So if we say tell a lie, that's already been covered under the blood of Christ. We have already been forgiven of anything we do. That it's not seen as sin by God. That all God ever sees when looking at us is Jesus.

I have heard this before from others regarding some automatic forgiveness of sin. When does this occur?

 

[Chaleb]

I have heard this before from others regarding some automatic forgiveness of sin. When does this occur?

Being born again, is the proof that : "God made Jesus to be sin for us".

Being Born AGAIN< is the proof that : "Jesus is the one time eternal sacrifice for all sin".

See : this verse for an update on WHY this occurs.

2 Corinthians 5:19

 

[Strong in Him]

I might be wrong, but I think the idea is we're technically without sin. So if we say tell a lie, that's already been covered under the blood of Christ. We have already been forgiven of anything we do.

I've heard that view before, but I don't believe it's correct.
God will forgive us for anything that we do, and WILL do? So then, murderers and thieves will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Someone could justifiably say, "Yes, I was born again, Lord, but I needed money. So instead of trusting you, I robbed a bank. No big deal; you've already forgiven me, haven't you?"

That it's not seen as sin by God.

I'm certain it is.
There have been stories of born again leaders falling into sin, giving into temptation, maybe even getting criminal records. God wouldn't see their fraud or adultery as sin? Everyone else would.

That all God ever sees when looking at us is Jesus.

That's assuming we are remaining in Jesus. If we sin, don't confess it and ask for forgiveness but carry on, assuming that it has been forgiven, then gradually, that sin will separate us from Christ. Paul wrote to tell us not to grieve, or to quench, the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 4:30, 1 Thessalonians 5:19. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and leads us to Jesus to receive forgiveness. If we do not respond when he convicts us of a sin, pricks our conscience or shows us that we have done something wrong, we may well find that it is a lot harder to hear him the next time. If someone like that wasn't careful, they could soon be congratulating themselves that they never do any wrong, when the truth is that their heart could be hardened.

If we are in Jesus, then when God looks at us he sees his Son - but he also sees and knows that we are not yet perfect. Just as he looked at Peter, called him a rock, but predicted Peter's denial and told him that when he had turned back to the faith, he was to encourage his brothers, Luke 22:32.