Free or not?

[Reformationist]

Trust me, you have no room to talk.

I'll have to trust you. I don't speak the language of your people.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Lol! What you're doing is deluding yourself. So, why do you choose to not get the cigs?

And there you go again. Why did you bother to ask, if your going to give my opinion for me? You asked, I told you. It's really a lot more simple that you are making it.

I wasn't aware that my posts were too complex for you. I'll try to dumb them down.

They aren't, they're just odd ball, and you are actually complaining about someone else not being coherent?

 

[Reformationist]

And there you go again. Why did you bother to ask, if your going to give my opinion for me? You asked, I told you. It's really a lot more simple that you are making it.

Come on now Watson. You can do better than that. If your greatest desire was to get the smokes, why did you choose not to? Don't be scared. We both know what's coming. Just let it take it's natural path.

They aren't, they're just odd ball, and you are actually complaining about someone else not being coherent?

I wasn't complaining. I found it funny. It was such a random, insider type of comment it made zero sense. Obviously it made sense to you. That wouldn't actually surprise me. Your own posts are rather nonsensical so it's not surprising you could understand his post.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Come on now Watson. You can do better than that. If your greatest desire was to get the smokes, why did you choose not to? Don't be scared. We both know what's coming. Just let it take it's natural path.

Some are going to disagree with you, and that seems to be a part of life you have a terrible time with. See your begging me to agree...see what I mean by weird?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Some are going to disagree with you, and that seems to be a part of life you have a terrible time with. See your begging me to agree...see what I mean by weird?

I'm having problems understanding your posts. What do you mean by the above? this in particular: "See your begging me to agree...see what I mean by weird?"

 

[Reformationist]

Some are going to disagree with you, and that seems to be a part of life you have a terrible time with. See your begging me to agree...see what I mean by weird?

I understand. You need some time to accept that you were wrong. I know that you're not accustomed to having to do that. I also understand your lack of familiarity doesn't stem from infrequently being wrong. I can see that your pride is stopping you right now. It's okay.

And, as much as you may need to believe it to continue thinking so highly of yourself, please, let me disabuse you of the notion that your agreement is necessary. In truth, your "agreement" would scare me far more than it would please me.

 

[Reformationist]

I'm having problems understanding your posts. What do you mean by the above?

Trust me, that's a Pandora's box you don't want to open.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Trust me, that's a Pandora's box you don't want to open.

I'm Reformed. I'm a glutton for punishment.

 

[EmSw]

I have no doubt he could. You, however, are not John. Not anywhere close, so your posturing on his behalf is arrogance. Nothing more.

I'm not claiming to be John. Do you not believe his words?

And I'll ask you again. Do you keep His commandments perfectly?

Where did you get 'perfectly'? It's something you made up. Do you believe perfectly?

Lol! I didn't change anything. You simply can't fathom the idea that, God forbid, you didn't do anything to be saved. Salvation is something done to you, not with you. All your arrogance won't change that inescapable fact.

So, if you don't repent, do you think you can escape perishing? Will you mock Jesus' words?

I see you don't believe these words -

Romans 2
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Do you not see eternal life is rendered to those who patiently continue in doing good? Perhaps you can't fathom that truth.

Maybe. I'm not sure. You'd actually have to find a verse that was contrary to what I believe and then we could test that theory.

I just gave you verses from Romans 2. Why not show us how you can 'tell us how black is white'. Why not tell us that God WILL NOT render eternal life to those who continue to do good. Get that 'theory' ready, let's see if you believe the truth.

I truly wish that were true. If it were true, we'd likely have fewer people that wanted to credit themselves with the appropriation of their salvation...you know...the way you do.

Continue to obey your unrighteousness, and see where that leads.

Can't imagine needing to do that. I will happily stand before Him, however, and let Him know that I didn't fall prey to the unbiblical view that man contributes to his salvation. You know, that tripe you're espousing. Yeah. That's the one.

Surely you must be talking about these words He will say -

Matthew 25:21
His lord said to him, ‘Well done, GOOD and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

WELL DONE!

 

[EmSw]

Freedom to act in manner contrary to one's nature or desires is not possible.

How did Adam and Eve act in a manner contrary to their original nature? You say it's impossible. Did God create them with a 'sin' nature?

 

[EmSw]

So tell me, why are some willing, and some not? Where lies the difference?

Why are you still willing to sin, if you have a 'new' nature? Did all things become new, or do you freely choose to intentionally sin against your 'new' nature?

 

[EmSw]

Fallen man is free to chose; however, he is not able to chose anything that goes against his nature or desire. He is incapable of choosing God or obeying Him. It is only through rebirth that man is capable of loving and serving God.

Fallen man is incapable of obeying God? Really? What world do you live in? Can fallen man choose not to murder, thus obeying God? Can fallen choose not to commit adultery, thus obeying God? Can fallen man choose to tell the truth, thus obeying God?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Obedience to God and self-preservation are two different things. The former is done for the sale of God; the later is done for the sake of self.

People who don't rob banks aren't obeying God, they are acting in their best interest. How many banks would be robbed if there were no police? All of them.

 

[EmSw]

Obedience to God and self-preservation are two different things. The former is done for the sale of God; the later is done for the sake of self.

People who don't rob banks aren't obeying God, they are acting in their best interest. How many banks would be robbed if there were no police? All of them.

How many would you rob?

 

[sdowney717]

very true.
Why would I argue with that.
well, unless we don't know what overcome the world means.
As I have overcome the world. JESUS walked in righteousness.
thus by his spirit , IF , we have the Holy spirit, we would be walking righteously
not in sin, but as overcomers of the evil.

All those born of God overcome the world, by their faith.
One sign they are born of God, they have faith in Christ to save them from this wicked world.
If they are born of God they are sealed by the Holy Spirit, having Him as there guarantee of eternal life, since they are a purchased possession by the blood of Christ which means all their sins are forgiven them. Everyone who is going to heaven to live with God must be forgiven all sin, Christ said you shall be perfect just as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Matthew 5:48 [Full Chapter]
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

That regenerated, born of God spirit in a man does not and cannot sin because it is born of God, so it is perfect without taint of evil or sin, since God is conforming us to the image of Christ..

It is God who regenerates the spirit in a man and the spirit is made according to holiness and righteousness. We now bear fruit unto holiness, that produced good fruit is what God's work in us has born in us.

The body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
When John says this about whoever is born of God cannot sin, he is referring to the NEW man in Christ, not the body of this flesh.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Just as Paul taught about the new creation this, we no longer regard anyone according to the flesh (body) which is dead because of sin, so neither should we. We need to regard them according to what God has done within them who made them new creations in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,


Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


1 john 5
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

 

[sandpiper22]

Hello everyone. I was hoping to get some insight into other's perspective on the will of man. So, after a rather unenlightening conversation with someone on a different thread, I thought I'd pose some questions here to see if I can find the root of the disagreements.

I thought it might be helpful if we start at the beginning of the creation account of mankind. When Adam and Eve were created, were they created with a nature predisposed to sin, i.e., a sin nature? Were they created with a will, i.e., were they volition creatures upon creation? If so, was that will free? If free, what types of choices were they able to make, e.g., sinful, not sinful, both, only one or the other, etc.? What influences, pre-Fall, would contribute to the choices they made. When Adam and Eve chose to rebell against God and were cast from the garden of Eden, did anything happen to change their constituent nature or did they remain the same?

That's probably a good start. Hopefully, there will be room and interest for follow up questions. I look forward to your answers.

God bless

Adam and Eve were created sinless, in that they have not violated any given law, since before the prohibition on the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, there was no law to violate. Were they spiritually alive ?
No.
They were physically alive, but there is nothing in the Scripture that indicates they were "spiritually alive", then died spiritually when they sinned.
That is seminary teaching.
They were from and of the dust.

Did they have free will ?
Yes, these two were the only humans that really had their will free.
Then God gave them a simple command, "don't eat that fruit there, y'hear ?".
And old Satan, he played on their curiosity and natural inclination to sin.
There I agree with your question.
ALL created creatures, angels, or humans, are predisposed to sin.

Which is why God Himself had to do the saving for His Kingdom by electing.
Did you know that there are elect angels ?
Now I've seen, and heard, and I guess you might have, too, a lot of arguments that the phrase "elect angels" in 1 Timothy 5:21 refers to 'messenger angels', or 'church pastors, or preachers, or evangelists', but it just doesn't hold up.

ALL created beings are prone to sin, and if God does not intervene, none will make it past sin.
That is why God gave that command, EVEN if He knew beforehand that the pair will fail.
He wanted it established from the get-go, among His people, for whom Scripture was written, preserved, taught, and disseminated, WITHOUT GOD WE ARE TOTALLY WRECKS.

When Adam and Eve violated God's law in the garden, they began to die, physically.
Check it out.
What did God say ?
Paraphrased he said: oh, wow, they did it. well, they now have the will to do right or wrong, and they chose wrong, and have sinned, and now, well, we can't very well have them taking of the fruit of the tree of life, can we ? because if they do, they'll live forever, so, let's drive them out of the garden'.

As a consequence of their sin, we all of us are dead IN sin and trespasses.
We all are conceived, and conceive, in sin.
Until God quickens our soul with His Spirit, and His Spirit cleaves with our soul, as in Jonathan and David cleaving to each other.
THEN, we are spiritually alive, and we can either obey the Spirit, or quench it, and like Adam, if we quench it, we suffer a detachment from God.
But, until a man, is "born from above", his one inclination is to go against what God calls good.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

With all due respect to you, you might be under-thinking things regarding the OP.

"Adam and Eve fell when they were tempted by the serpent......even angels are subject to temptation, as are born again believers."

Yes they did, but the question pertains to how that's possible.

"We only have two choices, either slaves to righteousness (God) or slaves to sin (self and devil)"

Who does? Did Adam and Eve have those choices? Do we? Do unregenerate men?

Freedom to act in manner contrary to one's nature or desires is not possible.

Truly now brother, are we going to call God unrighteous? There is a reason why angels and people are subject to judgment.......animals are not subject to judgment are they. We have an eternal soul which is able to make choices, to either submit itself to God's rule or the devil's rule.

Maybe these scriptures will help:

David prayed for a WILLING spirit..... Psalm 51:12

Jesus saying the spirit was WILLING, but the flesh was weak..... Matthew 26:41

Understand that we are elect according to God's FOREKNOWLEDGE, 1 Peter 1:2 not because He chose who to save and who to let perish........because the word also says He is willing that none would perish.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Understand that we are elect according to God's FOREKNOWLEDGE

I do understand that very well. Again, no disrespect, but I don't think you do.

Foreknowledge means knowing beforehand. God knew us beforehand. This might help:

we can notice that Romans 8:29 does not say that God foreknew certain decisions on our part. It does not say that God foresees our faith, and on that basis predestinates us. It says nothing of the sort.

Rather, Romans 8:29 says that God foreknew certain people. A study of the idea of knowledge in the Bible will show that it usually involves a choice of intimate relations, as when Adam “knew” his wife Eve and she conceived. Romans 8:29 means that God “fore-loved” certain people, and predestinated them. He chose them; they did not choose Him.

Romans 9 makes this abundantly clear, because Paul goes into a discussion of God’s sovereign choice of Jacob over Esau, a choice based on nothing either had done (Romans 9:11). The objection, “Is God unjust?” could not arise unless Paul were teaching real predestination; after all, nobody accuses the “foreseen faith” view of being unjust (9:14). And Paul’s answer in verse 15, which stresses that God decides whom He will save and whom He will not, clinches the matter clearly. Ligonier Ministries​

 

[HeLeadethMe]

I would say that people will, in fact they must, choose according to their greatest desire or inclination at the moment of choice. We are slaves to our desires.

Sorry but wow, this is just completely antithetical to the gospel......I'm flabbergasted that someone who considers themselves a Christian would say this.......if you believe this then you cannot be a follower of Christ, you are following something else entirely.......the opposite. What do you suppose overcoming is all about?

Your theology is a license to sin........eat drink and rise up to play for tomorrow we die. But we are told to overcome our sin/desires.

What the carnal fallen logical mind of man does...........is to justify our flesh so that we can keep our sin. But it is a lie and deception........and leads to death. The devil is the one who feeds our fleshly mind......fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil. So what sin is it that you are trying to keep and not WILLING to put on the altar?

May I ask, what denomination do you belong to and what/who do you read/listen to? Do you read the bible, or maybe paraphrased versions...? I will pray for your salvation.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

When talking about the will and choosing the greatest desire, I like the illustration of a man being held at gunpoint. The gunman said, "Give me you wallet, or I'll kill you".

Now, someone might say that if the the man handed over his wallet he acted against his desire. He didn't want to give over his wallet, but he did. He was forced to. However, the man was not forced to hand over his wallet. He did what he desired most doing at that moment: He wanted to live more than he wanted his wallet.

Are you saying Adam and Eve were forced to sin, or that we are forced to sin? Adam and Eve didn't even have the excuse that there were problems/lacks in their life .....all was good in the Garden. The nature we have, can be tempted to sin, that is all....simply by virtue of having free will......made in God's image. We are not forced to sin ever. Jesus even went so far as to say that we are not to resist an evil person........we can choose to obey Jesus with the Help of His Spirit, or we can choose to kill.........we never have an excuse to go our own way...........we can never be "forced" against our WILL. I'm afraid that is carnal thinking..........whereas we are to be transformed by the washing of the water of the word.......into new creatures having the mind of Christ.