Free or not?

[frienden thalord]

That I have noticed.
How satan deceives so many.
How it starts small, but once one lie is bought, he has them.
These doctrines of today, most of them
are leading and have led men to a GOD that is not HOLY
one that wont punish
a God that has no goodness, nor severity.
FOR the GOODNESS of GOD leads us to repentance
not accepting sin in the name of jesus and calling it love.
satan took and twisted the image of GOD and how man has loved it so.
well I shun the false image of god away, and follow only the TRUE GOD
in the and by the SPIRIT amen.
so be it , if it costs me everything. I was the absolute worst wicked thing
yet the grace of GOD appeared.
ONLY I better keep obeying His Grace, his unctions or I too shall be cast out.
Even paul knew that . and he did , by grace far more than most of us today.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Reformationist said: ↑
If free, what types of choices were they able to make, e.g., sinful, not sinful, both, only one or the other, etc.?

"Not sinful" an unlimited number of times while they retained their original nature.

"Sinful" only once and retain their oiginal nature.

So, even after the Fall their nature was not corrupted by sin?

No - that is not what I meant. Perhaps I should have worded it differently.

Perhaps: "Sinful" only once in their oiginal nature."

I meant to say in a very simple manner that they were only able to sin one time and when they did their original nature was changed.

But you believe that their, Adam and Eve, nature was unchanged?

No -see the above.

Help me out here because I'm a bit confused. I've heard it said that "we sin because we're sinners." That is, after the Fall, our nature, the nature of humanity, was corrupted by sin and, as such, sinning is our natural instinct. Do you agree with that?

Yes I agree.

It appears that I tried to get all too cute with my first post.

I'll go back and try to edit that post.

 

[frienden thalord]

Thanks for the reply. I'm a bit confused about something. I asked if Adam and Eve were created as volitional creatures and you replied:



Just so I'm clear, do I understand you to be saying that Adam and Eve were not created with a will and did not have the ability to make decisions?



If they weren't capable of making decisions, how did they disobey?

Thanks

uh, this guy just made a real valid point . I mean real valid point.
Why we cant see that though they were made perfect , they still had free will choice

 

[Reformationist]

If salvation is not a collaborative effort with God, then I can assure you, you aren't saved.

Oh, well, if you can assure me them that settles it. Lol! Sorry bub. I'll place my faith in the efficacy of God rather than what some random armchair theologian who wants to toot the horn of his own contribution thinks. Salvation IS a collaborative effort...between the Godhead. Man's role in salvation is that of a passive recipient.

If you don't keep His commandments (something man freely does), then you don't know Him and the truth doesn't abide in you.

If you think you keep His commandments then you are a liar and the truth is not in you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but, you sin. Now, sanctification, yeah, that's a synergistic effort between God and man. Salvation, not so much.

Good luck when you stand before your Creator and thank Him for His part in your salvation. Be sure to give Him a chance to thank you for your part. That'll be enlightening.

 

[frienden thalord]

OH dear the people are in serious trouble.
Why cant we just read the bible for our selves.
stead of letting men twist everything unto their own destruction.

 

[frienden thalord]

What I just read made me cringe deep inside. It sounds nothing like the true church once did.
A powerless gospel is what I just heard.
powerless to overcome sin. Jesus never came to allow us to remain in bondage to sin.
He came to set us free from the power of darkness.
The early church knew that. Go and sin no more was not a concept of an election.
IT was a command. they put the fear of GOD into any that was in a sin.
paul delivered unrepentant sinners over to destruction of the flesh.
in his day it was LET all who name the name of Christ depart from iniquity
not be left powerless in sins grasp.
Any true gospel OFJESUS would know that.
The people have no idea what spirit they follow anymore.
satans gospel is the one that wont set the captives free.
he cant set anyone free from the power of sin.
ONLY JESUS can. OH dear the people are deceived bad.
A gospel that allows men to stay in sin and yet feel saved, IS NO GOSPLE
Those who are Christs have KILLED , CRUCIFIED the affections and lusts of the flesh
are just fables to so many now.
the man of sin awaits for all now. Oh dear, the love of truth was just not enough
men loved darkness and changed the gospel to suit their own carnal desires.
This is so hard to have to watch.

 

[Reformationist]

It appears that I tried to get all too cute with my first post.

Well, you've cleared everything up now. Thank you!

 

[frienden thalord]

What happened to I can do all things THROUGH Christ who strengthens me.
what happened to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
anyone who has the REAL SPIRIT of GOD KNOWS
their salvation is not earned..............but it is LIVED BY THE POWER OF HIS GRACE
which brings salvation
Teaching us to DENY ungodliness and wordly lusts
to be LIVING RIGHTEOUSLY, yeah, RIGHTEOUSLY , godly and soberly in this present world
Pride has killed this person . lust has too.
and their is nothing I can do for them. but exhort , warn and move on.

 

[Reformationist]

"Possible" is as far as I could agree to. They were not made flawed.

But how was it possible? An ability to choose contrary to God's law does not, likewise, necessitate a predisposition to do so. Prior to the Fall, Adam and Eve had no existing inclination to sin. We don't sin for arbitrary reasons. We sin because we desire what God has forbidden. This very desire is, itself, sinful. How does a creature without a sinful nature desire that which God has forbidden?

 

[Reformationist]

And once again, you skirted the accusation, but that's ok, that fact tells me all need to know. Stop making things up, that doesn't help your case, and the name calling isn't doing you a lot of good either.

And no, it doesn't clear up anything to do with what you are peddling here, however to see your reaction to, and lack of forgiveness for a simple mistake/misread, that screams....don't take this guy seriously.

Mind if I ask who is teaching you these ideas?

Thanks for, once again, adding no value to the conversation.

 

[sdowney717]

What I just read made me cringe deep inside. It sounds nothing like the true church once did.
A powerless gospel is what I just heard.
powerless to overcome sin. Jesus never came to allow us to remain in bondage to sin.
He came to set us free from the power of darkness.
The early church knew that. Go and sin no more was not a concept of an election.
IT was a command. they put the fear of GOD into any that was in a sin.
paul delivered unrepentant sinners over to destruction of the flesh.
in his day it was LET all who name the name of Christ depart from iniquity
not be left powerless in sins grasp.
Any true gospel OFJESUS would know that.
The people have no idea what spirit they follow anymore.
satans gospel is the one that wont set the captives free.
he cant set anyone free from the power of sin.
ONLY JESUS can. OH dear the people are deceived bad.
A gospel that allows men to stay in sin and yet feel saved, IS NO GOSPLE
Those who are Christs have KILLED , CRUCIFIED the affections and lusts of the flesh
are just fables to so many now.
the man of sin awaits for all now. Oh dear, the love of truth was just not enough
men loved darkness and changed the gospel to suit their own carnal desires.
This is so hard to have to watch.

??
Jesus said this about being born of God.
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Unless you are born of God, you will not believe the things that Christ says and you will not overcome the world because you have no faith. Only those who are born of God have faith and overcome the world. The wind of God's Spirit blows wherever He wishes and they are born of God, without observation, but you can see what the wind does, they have faith. Regeneration must come first, then you enter the kingdom of God by faith, you are sealed because you believe.

1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Winken]

But how was it possible? An ability to choose contrary to God's law does not, likewise, necessitate a predisposition to do so. Prior to the Fall, Adam and Eve had no existing inclination to sin. We don't sin for arbitrary reasons. We sin because we desire what God has forbidden. This very desire is, itself, sinful. How does a creature without a sinful nature desire that which God has forbidden?

One insight that might be helpful to posters is that everything in the OT is reversed in the New. Adam-Eve were born sinless...we are born sin-filled. Adam-Eve ended up in a sin-filled standing...we end up in the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Adam-Eve led the then world to total destruction in the flood. The Body of Christ is to lead the world into the blessed assurance of eternal life in Jesus. Amen.

 

[EmSw]

Oh, well, if you can assure me them that settles it. Lol! Sorry bub. I'll place my faith in the efficacy of God rather than what some random armchair theologian who wants to toot the horn of his own contribution thinks. Salvation IS a collaborative effort...between the Godhead. Man's role in salvation is that of a passive recipient. .

If the apostle John can't convince you, then have at your own devices. If you know better than John, you are a better man than most. Here I'll give it to you again -

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So, do you think you really know Him, if you don't keep His commandments?

If you think you keep His commandments then you are a liar and the truth is not in you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but, you sin. Now, sanctification, yeah, that's a synergistic effort between God and man. Salvation, not so much.

Oops, you changed what John wrote. Is that what you do to the Bible? Let me give another verse from John -

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

How will you be sanctified if He doesn't dwell in you? You are a classic Reformed believer. If any verse contradicts what you believe, go after the messenger. You all are a dime a dozen.

Good luck when you stand before your Creator and thank Him for His part in your salvation. Be sure to give Him a chance to thank you for your part. That'll be enlightening.

Will you stand before the Creator and tell Him John, His apostle, was a liar?

 

[EmSw]

??
Jesus said this about being born of God.
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Unless you are born of God, you will not believe the things that Christ says and you will not overcome the world because you have no faith. Only those who are born of God have faith and overcome the world. The wind of God's Spirit blows wherever He wishes and they are born of God, without observation, but you can see what the wind does, they have faith. Regeneration must come first, then you enter the kingdom of God by faith, you are sealed because you believe.

1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

sdowney, you quoted 1 John 5, but didn't quote 1 John 2:29. Why did you do that?

1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Those born of Him does righteousness. How did you miss that? You have probably missed these two verses also from John -

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

A man is righteous if he does righteousness. Is that what you believe? Anyone who does not do righteousness, is not of God. How did you miss these two verses? The word 'do' really gives the Reformed fits. They hate that word.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Thanks for, once again, adding no value to the conversation.

When on side refuses to answer the questions posed, so the conversation can take a normal course, there is no conversation, only one side dictating what they say is true, one side that cannot back up the dictation when questioned, and that equates to a one sided conversation where the OP might as well be talking to themselves.

In turn, I'd have to say, you not being able or willing to hold up your side of the conversation very much says, you offer no value to it.

Just for fun, let's get back to the op..

was that will free?

Of course.

Do you disagree and if so, why? (just trying to show you how a normal conversation works...you give opinion of all answers and the opposition refutes/ debates or whatever in return...see?

If free, what types of choices were they able to make, e.g., sinful, not sinful, both, only one or the other, etc.?

Any choice, they had free will to choose whatever.

Now I wonder if you are aware what the term "free will" means? Maybe that's the crux of the problem here.

What influences, pre-Fall, would contribute to the choices they made.

Satan's/the serpents influence would be the major influence....of course.

This is all so elementary, I thought most people were well aware of the basics?

did anything happen to change their constituent nature or did they remain the same?

God didn't change their nature if that's what you are saying. Punishment does have a tendency to do that though, but if they do, it's completely up to them.

That's probably a good start.

Maybe, it's just what came after was the problem.

I look forward to your answers.

Seems that only stands if they agree with you, otherwise you don't seem happy at all with the answers.

 

[Reformationist]

If the apostle John can't convince you, then have at your own devices.

I have no doubt he could. You, however, are not John. Not anywhere close, so your posturing on his behalf is arrogance. Nothing more.

So, do you think you really know Him, if you don't keep His commandments?

And I'll ask you again. Do you keep His commandments perfectly?

Oops, you changed what John wrote. Is that what you do to the Bible?

Lol! I didn't change anything. You simply can't fathom the idea that, God forbid, you didn't do anything to be saved. Salvation is something done to you, not with you. All your arrogance won't change that inescapable fact.

How will you be sanctified if He doesn't dwell in you?

You won't. Not sure of your point since this doesn't contradict anything I've said or believe.

You are a classic Reformed believer.

Really? Man, thank you. I appreciate that.

If any verse contradicts what you believe, go after the messenger.

Maybe. I'm not sure. You'd actually have to find a verse that was contrary to what I believe and then we could test that theory.

You all are a dime a dozen.

I truly wish that were true. If it were true, we'd likely have fewer people that wanted to credit themselves with the appropriation of their salvation...you know...the way you do.

Will you stand before the Creator and tell Him John, His apostle, was a liar?

Can't imagine needing to do that. I will happily stand before Him, however, and let Him know that I didn't fall prey to the unbiblical view that man contributes to his salvation. You know, that tripe you're espousing. Yeah. That's the one.

 

[Reformationist]

Seems that only stands if they agree with you, otherwise you don't seem happy at all with the answers.

It's truly sad Watson. You've actually offered some meat for discussion and I think it might, MIGHT, have been interesting to see where it led. You also regaled me with a lot of side commentary as well, which I'm sure was intended to make you look clever. It didn't work. Unfortunately, at this point, I just see you as one of those people that goes on a singing show because their aunt Martha told them they were a good singer and was appalled that the judges told them to find a new career.

In closing, I'll just say, you have a really unhealthy obsession with the word "elementary." Might want to get that checked. Or buy a dictionary. Either would work.

 

[Kenny'sID]

t's truly sad Watson. You've actually offered some meat for discussion and I think it might, MIGHT, have been interesting to see where it led. You also regaled me with a lot of side commentary as well, which I'm sure was intended to make you look clever. It didn't work. Unfortunately, at this point, I just see you as one of those people that goes on a singing show because their aunt Martha told them they were a good singer and was appalled that the judges told them to find a new career.

In closing, I'll just say, you have a really unhealthy obsession with the word "elementary." Might want to get that checked. Or buy a dictionary. Either would work.

Still nothing huh? it is sad.

One sided.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

With respect, I do get the impression that the writer of the OP seems to be overthinking things. We need to be careful that our logical minds don't lead us down rabbit trails astray of the truth, and let the word inform our minds, instead of the other way around. I've wandered down some rabbit trails too in my life. The way back from a rabbit trail is to allow the word of God to correct any wrong thinking. We need to just let His word instruct us and try not to apply too much thinking, just receive the washing of the water of the word. Start trying to think too deeply and we can actually get into the realm of deep things of Satan.....this is the realm of carnal mind/intellect.....which is the realm of the serpent....Tree of Knowledge.

Adam and Eve fell when they were tempted by the serpent......even angels are subject to temptation, as are born again believers.

The essence of worship..........is "not my will but thy will be done". To deny self (own will) and obey God, that is worship. We are slaves to whom we obey.

We only have two choices, either slaves to righteousness (God) or slaves to sin (self and devil), there is no in between, nor ever has been. When Jesus said to the Pharisees they were of their father the devil, he wasn't indulging in petty name calling.......he was literally telling the truth. Likewise for all of us, either we have God as our father, or the devil as our father......depending on who we worship/obey.

When Adam and Eve fell in the Garden, they received of the spirit of the one they obeyed. This is how they suddenly "knew they were naked", they knew it by the spirit of the serpent they received when they chose to follow him. Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil.......... they "knew" they were naked. So Satan became their father and God was their father no longer. Satan became their father because of his seed/word that they received, the thought (ye shall be as gods) which conceived and gave birth and begat sin.

Bible says we all like sheep have gone astray, EACH ONE to his own way. Own way/will of course is contrary to worship of God which is NOT my own will/way.......but His. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We all sinned in some way, when we are tempted, just as Adam and Eve were.

God created man because He desired worship (because He was/is WORTHY of it). Perhaps also because God is love He desired objects of His love, He desired to express His love and so created beings in His image who He could love. But as demonstrated, you can't have beings that worship, who don't have a free will since the essence of worship is "not my WILL but thine". Neither robots nor animals can worship.....worship necessitates a free will.....I believe free will has to do with the soul of man. Neither robots nor animals have an eternal soul.

When we are born again and receive Christ........when He comes calling our part is to be WILLING to believe and receive, we open our hearts to Jesus instead of hardening them. We could choose to harden our hearts, as some do sadly, and again that is the exercise of one's will. But when we believe and are given faith not of our own, by His Spirit not of our own, God becomes our Father again, because we have received of His Spirit.

Not necessarily covering every question and detail I think, but prayerfully hoping this is at least useful to the discussion.

 

[frienden thalord]

??
Jesus said this about being born of God.
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Unless you are born of God, you will not believe the things that Christ says and you will not overcome the world because you have no faith. Only those who are born of God have faith and overcome the world. The wind of God's Spirit blows wherever He wishes and they are born of God, without observation, but you can see what the wind does, they have faith. Regeneration must come first, then you enter the kingdom of God by faith, you are sealed because you believe.

1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

very true.
Why would I argue with that.
well, unless we don't know what overcome the world means.
As I have overcome the world. JESUS walked in righteousness.
thus by his spirit , IF , we have the Holy spirit, we would be walking righteously
not in sin, but as overcomers of the evil.