Free or not?

[jimmyjimmy]

With respect, I do get the impression that the writer of the OP seems to be overthinking things.

With all due respect to you, you might be under-thinking things regarding the OP.

"Adam and Eve fell when they were tempted by the serpent......even angels are subject to temptation, as are born again believers."

Yes they did, but the question pertains to how that's possible.

"We only have two choices, either slaves to righteousness (God) or slaves to sin (self and devil)"

Who does? Did Adam and Eve have those choices? Do we? Do unregenerate men?

Freedom to act in manner contrary to one's nature or desires is not possible.

 

[frienden thalord]

With respect, I do get the impression that the writer of the OP seems to be overthinking things. We need to be careful that our logical minds don't lead us down rabbit trails astray of the truth, and let the word inform our minds, instead of the other way around. I've wandered down some rabbit trails too in my life. The way back from a rabbit trail is to allow the word of God to correct any wrong thinking. We need to just let His word instruct us and try not to apply too much thinking, just receive the washing of the water of the word. Start trying to think too deeply and we can actually get into the realm of deep things of Satan.....this is the realm of carnal mind/intellect.....which is the realm of the serpent....Tree of Knowledge.

Adam and Eve fell when they were tempted by the serpent......even angels are subject to temptation, as are born again believers.

The essence of worship..........is "not my will but thy will be done". To deny self (own will) and obey God, that is worship. We are slaves to whom we obey.

We only have two choices, either slaves to righteousness (God) or slaves to sin (self and devil), there is no in between, nor ever has been. When Jesus said to the Pharisees they were of their father the devil, he wasn't indulging in petty name calling.......he was literally telling the truth. Likewise for all of us, either we have God as our father, or the devil as our father......depending on who we worship/obey.

When Adam and Eve fell in the Garden, they received of the spirit of the one they obeyed. This is how they suddenly "knew they were naked", they knew it by the spirit of the serpent they received when they chose to follow him. Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil.......... they "knew" they were naked. So Satan became their father and God was their father no longer. Satan became their father because of his seed/word that they received, the thought (ye shall be as gods) which conceived and gave birth and begat sin.

Bible says we all like sheep have gone astray, EACH ONE to his own way. Own way/will of course is contrary to worship of God which is NOT my own will/way.......but His. ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We all sinned in some way, when we are tempted, just as Adam and Eve were.

God created man because He desired worship (because He was/is WORTHY of it). Perhaps also because God is love He desired objects of His love, He desired to express His love and so created beings in His image who He could love. But as demonstrated, you can't have beings that worship, who don't have a free will since the essence of worship is "not my WILL but thine". Neither robots nor animals can worship.....worship necessitates a free will.....I believe free will has to do with the soul of man. Neither robots nor animals have an eternal soul.

When we are born again and receive Christ........when He comes calling our part is to be WILLING to believe and receive, we open our hearts to Jesus instead of hardening them. We could choose to harden our hearts, as some do sadly, and again that is the exercise of one's will. But when we believe and are given faith not of our own, by His Spirit not of our own, God becomes our Father again, because we have received of His Spirit.

Not necessarily covering every question and detail I think, but prayerfully hoping this is at least useful to the discussion.

Now that is words of truth.
that explains quite well, why all that was created Has a free will
and it also shows how much God loves the world.
God is so merciful to us, to have sent the Son , and then by grace also
draws us to the SON
and then His spirit is within us to guide us into all truth.
But like paul said, I die daily. We must obey that beautiful holy spirit
which teaches us to walk righteously. OH, we are servants to whom we obey.
words of beauty sister. Words of beauty. let us bask in the ambience of truth
for were it not for grace, sister, we would both still be lost.

 

[Reformationist]

But as demonstrated, you can't have beings that worship, who don't have a free will since the essence of worship is "not my WILL but thine". Neither robots nor animals can worship.....worship necessitates a free will.....I believe free will has to do with the soul of man. Neither robots nor animals have an eternal soul.

I don't take issue, in substance, with the term "free will." I simply have a problem with the casual manner in which so many Christians throw it around, all with a definitive disregard for the inculcative effect of sin upon the constituent nature of man post-Fall. Let me clarify. I believe that man is a volitional creature. I believe that the decisions he makes are made free of external compulsion. I do not contend that man makes the choice to sin against his will. On the contrary, his choice to sin is his, and it is made because he desires to make it. Pure and simple, and that, in my opinion, is the essence of man's will. What I disagree with, and I am well aware the bible disagrees with, is the notion that natural man's post-Fall nature is morally free to choose either for God, or against Him. The Bible is replete with testimony regarding the bondage of man's will in his natural state. He is incapable of choosing for God because, simply, he never desires to do so. It is contrary to his nature. He is a slave to his sin, made all the worse by the fact that he is not an unwilling slave. He revels in his bondage. He seeks no escape because he desires no escape. Now, if that is "free," more power to you in using the term "free will." If, however, you recognize it for an utter lack of freedom, then we will be in accord.

When we are born again and receive Christ........when He comes calling our part is to be WILLING to believe and receive, we open our hearts to Jesus instead of hardening them.

So tell me, why are some willing, and some not? Where lies the difference?

We could choose to harden our hearts, as some do sadly, and again that is the exercise of one's will. But when we believe and are given faith not of our own, by His Spirit not of our own, God becomes our Father again, because we have received of His Spirit.

And why do some remain in their sin and some choose to exercise their will in belief? Also, and this may be incidental, you speak of the exercise of the will in belief leading to the receipt of faith. Is that how you see it, the exercise of the will leads to the dispensation of faith?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[frienden thalord]

With all due respect to you, you might be under-thinking things regarding the OP.

"Adam and Eve fell when they were tempted by the serpent......even angels are subject to temptation, as are born again believers."

Yes they did, but the question pertains to how that's possible.

"We only have two choices, either slaves to righteousness (God) or slaves to sin (self and devil)"

Who does? Did Adam and Eve have those choices? Do we? Do unregenerate men?

Freedom to act in manner contrary to one's nature or desires is not possible.

The HOW.
As in if they were created perfect, how did they fall. IS that what you mean
IF so, and I don't know if it is what you mean, but if so
lets examine that .
Satan was created perfect, so were all the angels , even the ones who fell.
So how did man and satan fall.
Because though they were created perfect, they were given free will.
the why
GOD desires free will obedience.
Every thing created in his image, has free will.
it has choice.
God desires worship. all things were created, FOR his purpose , for his glory.
who is man to question God.
Not all mankind will be saved. many reject Him.
universalism is a lie. but you probably know that.

 

[Reformationist]

the why
GOD desires free will obedience.
Every thing created in his image, has free will.
it has choice.
God desires worship. all things were created, FOR his purpose , for his glory.
who is man to question God.
Not all mankind will be saved. many reject Him.
universalism is a lie. but you probably know that.

This doesn't answer the "why."

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Satan was created perfect, so were all the angels

The term, "perfect" must be defined here, because perfection would imply the impossibility of sin. God is perfect; therefore, He is incapable of sin.

Every thing created in his image, has free will. it has choice.

Fallen man is free to chose; however, he is not able to chose anything that goes against his nature or desire. He is incapable of choosing God or obeying Him. It is only through rebirth that man is capable of loving and serving God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

So tell me, why are some willing, and some not? Where lies the difference?

Why does anyone choose one thing over another but they are allowed to due to free will.

One reason is some simply want to sin, whatever because it's more fun and some choose what appears a safer way. Why do you think?

 

[Reformationist]

Why does anyone choose one thing over another but they are allowed to due to free will.

One reason is some simply want to sin, whatever because it's more fun and some choose what appears a safer way. Why do you think?

I would say that people will, in fact they must, choose according to their greatest desire or inclination at the moment of choice. We are slaves to our desires.

 

[frienden thalord]

Why does anyone choose one thing over another but they are allowed to due to free will.

One reason is some simply want to sin, whatever because it's more fun and some choose what appears a safer way. Why do you think?

Kenny. I am not judging this man.
but I am going to warn you. the same spirit that was on another man named gilbert
who destroyed petes sight is on this person.
its identical. I am leaving this thred not to return.

 

[Reformationist]

Kenny. I am not judging this man.
but I am going to warn you. the same spirit that was on another man named gilbert
who destroyed petes sight is on this person.
its identical. I am leaving this thred not to return.

What in the name of all that is holy? Lol! Did that make sense to anyone else?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I would say that people will, in fact they must, choose according to their greatest desire or inclination at the moment of choice. We are slaves to our desires.

No "must".

 

[Kenny'sID]

Kenny. I am not judging this man.
but I am going to warn you. the same spirit that was on another man named gilbert
who destroyed petes sight is on this person.
its identical. I am leaving this thred not to return.

Thanks, something is definitely amiss.

 

[Reformationist]

No "must".

Not sure if I understand your complex response but, if you disagree, please cite a time when you, or anyone you know, chose contrary to their greatest desire or inclination at the moment of choice, for my edification.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

What in the name of all that is holy? Lol! Did that make sense to anyone else?

That takes top spot in the oddest thing I've read on CF. . . this week.

I hope he explains what that he meant because I don't want misunderstand that post. Left as is, it sounded rather insulting.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

When talking about the will and choosing the greatest desire, I like the illustration of a man being held at gunpoint. The gunman said, "Give me you wallet, or I'll kill you".

Now, someone might say that if the the man handed over his wallet he acted against his desire. He didn't want to give over his wallet, but he did. He was forced to. However, the man was not forced to hand over his wallet. He did what he desired most doing at that moment: He wanted to live more than he wanted his wallet.

 

[Reformationist]

That takes top spot in the oddest thing I've read on CF. . . this week.

I hope he explains what that he meant because I don't want misunderstand that post. Left as is, it sounded rather insulting.

To be perfectly honest, I haven't really understood most of his posts. This one was just way out there though. Him and ol' Kenny there must know each other. Probably an inside thing.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Not sure if I understand your complex response but, if you disagree, please cite a time when you, or anyone you know, chose contrary to their greatest desire or inclination at the moment of choice, for my edification.

I do it all the time. I want to go out and buy a pack of ciggs for instance, that is my greatest desire, or I'd rather do that than not, yet I choose not to.

I purposely am making things not complex, as you seem to be doing a pretty good job at the opposite.

 

[Reformationist]

I do it all the time. I want to go out and buy a pack of ciggs for instance, that is my greatest desire, or I'd rather do that than not, yet I choose not to.

I purposely am making things not complex, as you seem to be doing a pretty good job at the opposite.

Lol! What you're doing is deluding yourself. So, why do you choose to not get the cigs?

 

[Reformationist]

I purposely am making things not complex, as you seem to be doing a pretty good job at the opposite.

I wasn't aware that my posts were too complex for you. I'll try to dumb them down.

 

[Kenny'sID]

To be perfectly honest, I haven't really understood most of his posts. This one was just way out there though. Him and ol' Kenny there must know each other. Probably an inside thing.

Trust me, you have no room to talk.