Free or not?

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Hello everyone. I was hoping to get some insight into other's perspective on the will of man. So, after a rather unenlightening conversation with someone on a different thread, I thought I'd pose some questions here to see if I can find the root of the disagreements.

I thought it might be helpful if we start at the beginning of the creation account of mankind. When Adam and Eve were created, were they created with a nature predisposed to sin, i.e., a sin nature? Were they created with a will, i.e., were they volition creatures upon creation? If so, was that will free? If free, what types of choices were they able to make, e.g., sinful, not sinful, both, only one or the other, etc.? What influences, pre-Fall, would contribute to the choices they made. When Adam and Eve chose to rebell against God and were cast from the garden of Eden, did anything happen to change their constituent nature or did they remain the same?

That's probably a good start. Hopefully, there will be room and interest for follow up questions. I look forward to your answers.

God bless
 

Winken

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Hello everyone. I was hoping to get some insight into other's perspective on the will of man. So, after a rather unenlightening conversation with someone on a different thread, I thought I'd pose some questions here to see if I can find the root of the disagreements.

When Adam and Eve were created, were they created with a nature predisposed to sin, i.e., a sin nature?
No.

Were they created with a will, i.e., were they volition creatures upon creation?
No.

If so, was that will free?
No. They were not created with "free will."

When Adam and Eve chose to rebel against God and were cast from the garden of Eden, did anything happen to change their constituent nature or did they remain the same?
They were created in perfection, living in a perfect place, prepared by God for His Holiness. Their "nature" was Spiritual. After their disobedience, their nature was sinful.
 
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Thanks for the reply. I'm a bit confused about something. I asked if Adam and Eve were created as volitional creatures and you replied:


Just so I'm clear, do I understand you to be saying that Adam and Eve were not created with a will and did not have the ability to make decisions?

Their "nature" was Spiritual. After their disobedience, their nature was sinful.

If they weren't capable of making decisions, how did they disobey?

Thanks
 
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Winken

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Just so I'm clear, do I understand you to be saying that Adam and Eve were not created with a will and did not have the ability to make decisions?

They were Spiritual beings. They lived in perfection. They did not need to make "decisions." Their disobedience was to yield to temptation.
 
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Marvin Knox

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When Adam and Eve were created, were they created with a nature predisposed to sin, i.e., a sin nature?
No.
Were they created with a will, i.e., were they volition creatures upon creation? If so, was that will free?
Yes.

It was as free as beings created in the image of God can will - considering that they lived and moved and had their being in God.
If free, what types of choices were they able to make, e.g., sinful, not sinful, both, only one or the other, etc.?
"Not sinful" an unlimited number of times while they retained their original nature.

"Sinful" only once in their oiginal nature.
What influences, pre-Fall, would contribute to the choices they made.
God's placing of the tree in the garden and instructing them not to eat of it.

External temptation - i.e. Lucifer in the form of or inhabiting the serpent.
When Adam and Eve chose to rebell against God and were cast from the garden of Eden, did anything happen to change their constituent nature or did they remain the same?
It appear that their nature was changed in some way in that they hid from God in the garden and parented sinners rather than altogether righteous offspring outside the garden.
They were Spiritual beings. They lived in perfection. They did not need to make "decisions." Their disobedience was to yield to temptation.
Not sure I can see the difference you are getting at here.

A temptation is a yearning to do one thing over against another thing.

"Yielding" to temptation is making and following through on a decision to do what that temptation is calling you to do rather than making and following through on a decision not to do what that temptation is calling you to do.

Surely both the reasoned conversation of Eve with the serpent and the taking of the fruit by Adam from Eve constituted integral parts of a volitional decision to eat of the tree by mankind.
 
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AlexDTX

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You are going to get a mixed bag of opinions. Here is my hat tossed into the ring.

I thought it might be helpful if we start at the beginning of the creation account of mankind. When Adam and Eve were created, were they created with a nature predisposed to sin, i.e., a sin nature?

They were created in the image of God and were perfect in creation. They did not have a sin nature, but rather were partakers of a "created diving nature". They had a body soul and spirit that was created. Their spirit was the lead of their lives and their soul made choices from that point in the beginning.

Were they created with a will, i.e., were they volition creatures upon creation? If so, was that will free? If free, what types of choices were they able to make, e.g., sinful, not sinful, both, only one or the other, etc.?

Calvinists will tell us that they had a will, but not a free will. I reject that position. The free will is the essence of what makes us alive. If they could not reject God, the Fall would never have had happened. The fact that they could sin proved that they were not robots. A robot can only self destruct if it is programmed to do so. We were not programmed to die.

What influences, pre-Fall, would contribute to the choices they made. When Adam and Eve chose to rebell against God and were cast from the garden of Eden, did anything happen to change their constituent nature or did they remain the same?

They changed. They had a carnal nature which means that the soul no longer followed the leading of the created spirit, since it had died, and followed the leading of the senses of the body. Before the Fall they had the freedom to follow the senses of the body and the spirit. The pleasures of the body were not sinful since they are the gift of God for living, but before the Fall they were balanced between the spirit and the body. After the Fall all they could do was make decisions based upon sense of the body.

The term "sin nature" is understood to be a driving force, whereas, sensuality is merely preferring the pleasures of the flesh. The sin nature can be understood as the constant imagining of carnality and sin in our minds and hearts. Jeremiah said the heart is desperately wicked. God flooded the Earth because every imagination of the heart was evil. When we have the new birth, the sin nature dies and we become partakers of the divine nature of which Adam and all mankind before the cross were not able to partake in. God allowed the experience of the Holy Spirit temporarily with animal sacrifice that was understood to be a type of Messiah's death in the pre-Christian era. However, after the resurrection, in the new birth we have the permanent indwelling of the Spirit which is joined to our resurrected spirits. We now have free will and can turn to sensuality or sin again if we choose. But to do so is stupidity and death. God always remains with us, but our relationship with him will suffer and we always suffer the consequences of sin. Forgiveness never removes consequences. While our spirits are sanctified and holy in the new birth, our minds need renewal. This is our discipleship. We change, repent, of the way we think, and turn our thoughts on what God wants through the knowledge of Scripture and personal relationship with God.
 
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They were Spiritual beings. They lived in perfection. They did not need to make "decisions." Their disobedience was to yield to temptation.

Um...I have to admit, in all my years, I've never heard a single person try to purport that Adam and Eve weren't volitional.

So, did Adam and Eve act without intent? How does one "yield" without choosing to yield?
 
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Reformationist

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Thanks Marvin.

"Sinful" only once and retain their oiginal nature."

So, even after the Fall their nature was not corrupted by sin?

God's placing of the tree in the garden and instructing them not to eat of it.

External temptation - i.e. Lucifer in the form of or inhabiting the serpent.

Help me out here because I'm a bit confused. I've heard it said that "we sin because we're sinners." That is, after the Fall, our nature, the nature of humanity, was corrupted by sin and, as such, sinning is our natural instinct. Do you agree with that?

It appear that their nature was changed in some way in that they hid from God in the garden and parented sinners rather than altogether righteous offspring outside the garden.

But you believe that their, Adam and Eve, nature was unchanged?

Thanks
 
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Alithis

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No.

No.

No. They were not created with "free will."

They were created in perfection, living in a perfect place, prepared by God for His Holiness. Their "nature" was Spiritual. After their disobedience, their nature was sinful.
Not really wanting to get deep into this but your replies confused..(misunderstanding?)
You say man was not created with free will..?
But yet you say he was created perfect?
It's written he is created in gods image.
See the contradiction there?
 
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You are going to get a mixed bag of opinions. Here is my hat tossed into the ring.

Thanks Alex.

Their spirit was the lead of their lives and their soul made choices from that point in the beginning.

But something prior to the Fall changed that though, right?

Calvinists will tell us that they had a will, but not a free will. I reject that position. The free will is the essence of what makes us alive. If they could not reject God, the Fall would never have had happened. The fact that they could sin proved that they were not robots. A robot can only self destruct if it is programmed to do so. We were not programmed to die.

The "robot" refutation isn't an accurate depiction of what either Calvin, or Calvinists, profess so I'm not sure why you bring them up. I don't know any Calvinists that claim man was incapable of defying God, you know, seeing as how it actually happened. They'd be hard pressed to make that case.

They changed. They had a carnal nature which means that the soul no longer followed the leading of the created spirit, since it had died, and followed the leading of the senses of the body.

But that change happened after the Fall, right?

After the Fall all they could do was make decisions based upon sense of the body.

So they were no longer free to make decisions that were balanced, is that right?

However, after the resurrection, in the new birth we have the permanent indwelling of the Spirit which is joined to our resurrected spirits. We now have free will and can turn to sensuality or sin again if we choose. But to do so is stupidity and death.

And what happens if we turn to sin and sensuality after our new birth?

God always remains with us, but our relationship with him will suffer and we always suffer the consequences of sin. Forgiveness never removes consequences.

Are you referring to temporal consequences or eternal consequences?

Thanks
 
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frienden thalord

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No.

No.

No. They were not created with "free will."

They were created in perfection, living in a perfect place, prepared by God for His Holiness. Their "nature" was Spiritual. After their disobedience, their nature was sinful.
What on earth are religions teaching men these days.
of course they had free will. they chose to obey the serpant and disobey GOD.
Free will we all have it. My wonderful Lord makes that very clear
when under heavy strain he says Neverthelss NOT MY WILL but thine be done.
man has a choice. Grace that is just a free gift from GOD
that enters into a heart of man. THEN he has the free will choice whether to obey the flesh and die
or the spirit and live. Choose ye this day is all over the scrips.
man has free will. And we better be looking diligently , lest we too fail of the grace of GOD.
We are servants to whom WE OBEY. choice. choice..................choice.
amen. what on earth has man done to the chuches. Winken my german friend
you had to have learned that from some teacher, who was it calvin, Baptist,
like I said. MEN>
 
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Frienden thalord (I see what you did there), would you mind answering my questions? Your response is a little difficult to follow.

you had to have learned that from some teacher, who was it calvin, Baptist,
like I said. MEN>

His/her answers are not in accord with Calvin's teachings.
 
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frienden thalord

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Frienden thalord (I see what you did there), would you mind answering my questions? Your response is a little difficult to follow.



His/her answers are not in accord with Calvin's teachings.
thank you for letting me know that.
 
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frienden thalord

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Not really wanting to get deep into this but your replies confused..(misunderstanding?)
You say man was not created with free will..?
But yet you say he was created perfect?
It's written he is created in gods image.
See the contradiction there?
Alithis, that was the first thing I spotted too.
 
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frienden thalord

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Hello everyone. I was hoping to get some insight into other's perspective on the will of man. So, after a rather unenlightening conversation with someone on a different thread, I thought I'd pose some questions here to see if I can find the root of the disagreements.

I thought it might be helpful if we start at the beginning of the creation account of mankind. When Adam and Eve were created, were they created with a nature predisposed to sin, i.e., a sin nature? Were they created with a will, i.e., were they volition creatures upon creation? If so, was that will free? If free, what types of choices were they able to make, e.g., sinful, not sinful, both, only one or the other, etc.? What influences, pre-Fall, would contribute to the choices they made. When Adam and Eve chose to rebell against God and were cast from the garden of Eden, did anything happen to change their constituent nature or did they remain the same?

That's probably a good start. Hopefully, there will be room and interest for follow up questions. I look forward to your answers.

God bless
Here is an easy answer. JESUS came in the same flesh we all have, even Adam and eve had.
same flesh. And HE was made in the likness of sinful flesh....................
that makes that clear.
Adams flesh was NO different than ours. and Christ was made in the likness of sinful flesh
YET he SINNED NOT.
the flesh never changed from adam to Christ to all of us. no special skin suit for the first adam .
nor any. SO. I hope that helps.
 
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frienden thalord

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When we learn what GOD desires above everything , then we understand why man was made as he was.
GOD desires one thing . FREE WILL OBEDIANCE.
as much as HE desires us to be saved . ponder that.
God desires the GLORY our repentance gives him the glory.
GOD made all things for HIS purpose .
NOW let us MIND the HOLY SPIRIT .
God desires obedience above ALL THINGS.
HE is love also. thus HE sent the SON to be the savoir
and to put the SPIRIT in our hearts. GRACE
but if we don't obey Grace. man that is our own fault.
Let us realize something real deep. GOD created all things for HIS PURPOSE and glory.
God don't serve us. WE serve Him. and by the SPIRIT is the only way we can worship Him.
But if we don't heed the Spirit and choose the flesh . Well, that is death.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Good questions.

If all Christians understood what libertarian freewill is, and isn't, the church would be better for it.

This might be helpful to the discussion:

Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one's nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise. Libertarian free will | Theopedia

When Adam and Eve were created, were they created with a nature predisposed to sin, i.e., a sin nature?

Yes. They had a nature that was capable of sin;therfore it was their design that made sin possible. If they were created incapable of sin, there would have been no fall.

Were they created with a will

Yes.

was that will free?

That depends upon what you mean by free. They were free within certain (countless) perimeters.

If free, what types of choices were they able to make

They were free to do what they desired most to do; however, they were limited by their Creator. There were not free to breath under water, for instance.

What influences, pre-Fall, would contribute to the choices they made.

Externally, they had God's promise and instruction, and Satan's lies. Internally, they had drives such as hunger. I would have to give this more thought. . .

When Adam and Eve chose to rebell against God and were cast from the garden of Eden, did anything happen to change their constituent nature or did they remain the same?

They truly did change. Prior to the fall their source for understanding what good and evil were came to them from God alone. He told Them what they should and should not do. Eating from the Tree gave them autonomy. They would now determine for themselves what was good and evil. We still feel the ripples of this, and it's called, "relativism".

As creatures who were not made to live autonomously they literal began to disintegrate when they exchanged the worship of God for the worship of Satan. The end of their disintegration was death.
 
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When we learn what GOD desires above everything , then we understand why man was made as he was.
GOD desires one thing . FREE WILL OBEDIANCE.
as much as HE desires us to be saved . ponder that.
God desires the GLORY our repentance gives him the glory.
GOD made all things for HIS purpose .
NOW let us MIND the HOLY SPIRIT .
God desires obedience above ALL THINGS.
HE is love also. thus HE sent the SON to be the savoir
and to put the SPIRIT in our hearts. GRACE
but if we don't obey Grace. man that is our own fault.
Let us realize something real deep. GOD created all things for HIS PURPOSE and glory.
God don't serve us. WE serve Him. and by the SPIRIT is the only way we can worship Him.
But if we don't heed the Spirit and choose the flesh . Well, that is death.

Sorry frienden thalord. Your posts are too difficult to follow, and what I can follow doesn't seem all that biblical. I'll leave it to someone else to take a stab at responding.

Thanks anyway.
 
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All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one's nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise.

So, if at the moment of choice, there is nothing exerting any irresistible compulsion, are the choices random or arbitrary?

Yes. They had a nature that was capable of sin;therfore it was their design that made sin possible. If they were created incapable of sin, there would have been no fall.

I didn't say possible. I said predisposed.

They were free to do what they desired most to do; however, they were limited by their Creator. There were not free to breath under water, for instance.

And what determined their greatest desire?

Eating from the Tree gave them autonomy. They would now determine for themselves what was good and evil. We still feel the ripples of this, and it's called, "relativism"

So, once they ate from the tree, they were no longer subject to what God determined to be good and evil?

Thanks
 
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