Free or not?

[EmSw]

I still choose to sin because sin is still at work in my body. Though my nature has been changed, my vessel remains weak. And yes, obviously, when I choose to sin it's because I freely seek to submit to my flesh instead of my new nature.

How's that?

So you aren't a new creature; you are the same old creature which obeys sin. Did God not do a good job in creating a new heart in you? Did God not do this 'perfectly'?

Since you can't obey 'perfectly' with a new heart, how do we know you have a new heart?

 

[EmSw]

Seeing as how many do, in fact, perish, what does it mean to you that God isn't "willing" that any should perish?

Actually, if you knew Jesus' words, you would know they were passive and didn't repent.

 

[EmSw]

[QUOTE="Reformationist, post: 71326661, member: 1300"That would be sanctification, not salvation. That, we DO have a part in.[/QUOTE]

So you have a part in sanctification.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (ESV)

Since you have a part in sanctification, and you are saved through sanctification, you surely do have a part in salvation.

 

[EmSw]

I daresay the answer to every question asked on this message board is "laid out in the Bible account."

Including being chosen to salvation through sanctification.

 

[HeLeadethMe]

It came from the Lord today that these kinds of question/answer games can be used by the enemy to groom people by dragging them down into the labyrinth of the carnal logical mind in order to finally plant a false seed/word there, once they get around to bringing out their point. So I decline to participate in that, but try to remain in the mind of Christ, and advise others to do the same. Thank you Father for your light, without which we would all be lost, and sadly many are.

But this was Lucifer's pride and folly, wasn't it, he thought he knew better than God......who then tempted Adam and Eve at the Tree of Knowledge to become like him.

We are not to lean on our own understanding, but just receive the word of God by revelation, by HIS Spirit, His light...........no mental effort needed, just believe and receive. Don't expect it will be heeded by some, but the carnal mind is ENMITY with God, as I think someone already pointed out. Please count me out of here, thanks.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It came from the Lord today that these kinds of question/answer games can be used by the enemy to groom people by dragging them down into the labyrinth of the carnal logical mind in order to finally plant a false seed/word there, once they get around to bringing out their point. So I decline to participate in that, but try to remain in the mind of Christ, and advise others to do the same. Thank you Father for your light, without which we would all be lost, and sadly many are.

But this was Lucifer's pride and folly, wasn't it, he thought he knew better than God......who then tempted Adam and Eve at the Tree of Knowledge to become like him.

We are not to lean on our own understanding, but just receive the word of God by revelation, by HIS Spirit, His light...........no mental effort needed, just believe and receive. Don't expect it will be heeded by some, but the carnal mind is ENMITY with God, as I think someone already pointed out. Please count me out of here, thanks.

Sounds like you had better steer clear, then. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Reformationist]

Very well then, I wish you the best in your quest for answers to the questions you asked.

Uh...great. Thanks so much. Take care.

 

[Reformationist]

Then why are you acting as if you don't need to keep His commandments to have His truth in you?

I'm not. Never said that. Never thought it. You wanna move on from what was clearly a gross mischaracterization on your part or did you want to keep beating this dead horse?

Is there any difference of a student answering every question and answering every question perfectly?

Sure. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said so, like most of the other nonsense you keep spouting, it is a waste of time. God doesn't command us to make an attempt at keeping His commandments. He demands perfect obedience.

So, in answer to your ridiculous question that does not parallel what we were talking about, yes, there is a difference between a student answering every question and a student answering every question perfectly. There is not, however, a difference between the admonishment to "keep His commandments" and that of "keep His commandments perfectly." Just. Like. I. Said.

You can't provide any passage which says keep His commandments perfectly, and you know it. You made this up so you can make your own rules. We all will be waiting for you to provide such a passage.

Tell you what, if you can cite a single, reputable Christian that believes God doesn't demand perfect obedience, I'll admit that I was wrong. Just remember, if God did not demand perfect obedience, it would've been unnecessary for Christ to die on man's behalf. So, if you're right, you've single handedly destroyed the basis for the atoning work of Christ. Good luck with that.

And since you don't believe perfectly, why should you get eternal life? You have failed and come up short in believing, according to your Reformed theory.

You really don't understand Christian doctrine, do you? I almost thought this question was a joke but then I realized who it was from. Okay, for the cheap seats:

I am saved on the basis of CHRIST'S VICARIOUS OBEDIENCE. If that's too complex for you, I get credit for the righteousness of Christ. You know simul iustus et peccator.

So, you weren't passive.

Not sure how your mind works. Yes. I was a passive recipient in the appropriation of my personal salvation. I think I see what happened. You read my rhetorical statement of "So, is God going to turn away a person with no faith that seeks Him," by which I'd meant to convey that the idea of a person with no faith seeking God is preposterous, and I think you probably took that to mean that I was saying God wouldn't turn away a person with no faith who sought Him. Let me clear that up for you, since you seem to have missed it. A person with no faith would not seek God so asking whether God would turn such a person away is a strawman.

It doesn't say to His followers; it says to those who do good. Read it again, and this time with the right words.

Oooooh. I see where the disconnect is. You mistakenly think that those without faith in God can do good. I got it now. Wow. That was so confusing. I'm sorry for getting ahead of you. You see, I interchanged "those who do good" with "His followers" because, well, His followers the only ones with faith so they're the only ones that can do good in the sight of the Lord. I wasn't aware you were using the word "good" in such a ridiculously unbiblical way. My bad.

John says those who do righteousness are righteous. Passive people don't DO anything, remember. Surely you know that. Maybe you changed that in your Bible also.

I seriously didn't realize you were so far behind. Let me clarify...again. The passivity of which I speak is strictly with respect to eternal salvation. We are most definitely participatory in our sanctification. That is, we work out our faith on a daily basis. Hopefully that will clear it up for you.

And what wrong with being worthy of Jesus?

Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Again, passive people aren't worthy of Jesus.

Uh, good luck with that. No one is worthy of the Lord. He alone is worthy. Thankfully He has mercy on us in our unworthiness. But, hey, if you think you're worthy on your own account, go with that. Pride goeth before the fall.

 

[Reformationist]

Really? The Reformed say you can't act contrary to your nature. Does your own belief confuse you?

Aren't you fun. Even when I agree with you, you pick a fight. I've never seen anyone, reformed or otherwise, have a reasonable explanation to how Adam and Eve could choose to sin before the Fall.

 

[Reformationist]

So you aren't a new creature; you are the same old creature which obeys sin.

I am a new creation. I have been given a new nature. That new nature, which desires to serve God in obedience, resides in broken flesh, just as God had intended. When I seek to obey God, and make that my priority, that's what I do. When I give attention to the lusts of my flesh, it is my flesh I serve. This is the dichotomy about which Paul speaks in Romans 7.

Since you can't obey 'perfectly' with a new heart, how do we know you have a new heart?

Well, I strive to make my calling and election sure to myself, but I would say that my faith in Him is the most viable evidence that He has given me a new heart. The natural man has no faith.

 

[Reformationist]

Actually, if you knew Jesus' words, you would know they were passive and didn't repent.

Yeah. That doesn't answer my question. Let me try again:

Seeing as how many do, in fact, perish, what does it mean to you that God isn't "willing" that any should perish?

 

[Reformationist]

So you have a part in sanctification.

Of course.

Since you have a part in sanctification, and you are saved through sanctification, you surely do have a part in salvation.

Yeah, sorry. That's not what that means. Good try though. "Salvation" is spoken of in several ways in the Scriptures. One is eternal salvation. This is solely the work of God and it happens when God regenerates someone from death in their trespasses and sins to life in Christ. Another is salvation from the sinfulness of our flesh. This is a progressive process we undergo over the course of our lives as we are conformed to the image of Christ. As I said, this we participate in. Lastly, is the final salvation. This is a reference to glorification, whereupon all vestige of sin is purged from our being and we are confirmed in grace.

 

[Reformationist]

Please count me out of here, thanks.

Take care

 

[Thursday]

Hello everyone. I was hoping to get some insight into other's perspective on the will of man. So, after a rather unenlightening conversation with someone on a different thread, I thought I'd pose some questions here to see if I can find the root of the disagreements.

I thought it might be helpful if we start at the beginning of the creation account of mankind. When Adam and Eve were created, were they created with a nature predisposed to sin, i.e., a sin nature? Were they created with a will, i.e., were they volition creatures upon creation? If so, was that will free? If free, what types of choices were they able to make, e.g., sinful, not sinful, both, only one or the other, etc.? What influences, pre-Fall, would contribute to the choices they made. When Adam and Eve chose to rebell against God and were cast from the garden of Eden, did anything happen to change their constituent nature or did they remain the same?

That's probably a good start. Hopefully, there will be room and interest for follow up questions. I look forward to your answers.

God bless

Adam and Eve were free to obey God's will or to reject it, just as we are.

God gives us free will because he wants our love. Without free will love is not possible.

 

[Reformationist]

Adam and Eve were free to obey God's will or to reject it, just as we are.

So you don't believe there was actually any change to the constituent nature of man following the Fall?

God gives us free will because he wants our love. Without free will love is not possible.

Okay, so let's explore this scenario you've constructed. Everyone has the all powerful "free will." God wants us to love Him.

Some people choose to love Him. Some people choose to reject Him. What accounts for the difference?

 

[EmSw]

I'm not. Never said that. Never thought it. You wanna move on from what was clearly a gross mischaracterization on your part or did you want to keep beating this dead horse?

So you keep His commandments in order to have truth in you? Keep beating around the bush, and soon you will have no bush to beat.

Can a man be saved without truth?

Sure. That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said so, like most of the other nonsense you keep spouting, it is a waste of time. God doesn't command us to make an attempt at keeping His commandments. He demands perfect obedience.

What does God command concerning His commandments? You still haven't shown us in the Bible where God demands 'perfect' obedience. If you can't show us, then you are making this up. We already have a 'Roger the Dodger' on this forum; we don't need two.

So, in answer to your ridiculous question that does not parallel what we were talking about, yes, there is a difference between a student answering every question and a student answering every question perfectly. There is not, however, a difference between the admonishment to "keep His commandments" and that of "keep His commandments perfectly." Just. Like. I. Said.

The commandments are not admonished by God, they are commanded. How does one keeping from lusting after a woman perfectly? How does one not bear false witness perfectly? Since you think no one can keep His commandments, then no one has the truth in them. This would include you. You have made every man a liar with your 'perfectly'.

Here are the things you deny in the word with your whim of 'perfectly' -

Matthew 19:17

And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

No one can enter life, since they don't keep the commandments 'perfectly'.


John 14:15

If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

No one loves Jesus, since they don't keep His commandments 'perfectly'.


John 14:21

Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.

Here again, no one loves Jesus, nor are they loved by the Father, and neither has Jesus manifested Himself to anyone, since they don't keep His commandments 'perfectly'.


John 15:10

If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

No one abides in His love, since they don't keep His commandments 'perfectly'.


1 Corinthians 7:19

For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

Someone forgot to tell Paul that no one can keep His commandments 'perfectly'. You should have been born during Paul's time, and straightened him out on this.

1 Timothy 6
13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,
14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

If only you were there with Paul and tell him that no one can keep the commandment 'unstained' and 'free from reproach'.


1 John 2:3

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

Why does John tells to keep His commandments 'perfectly'? By John's own words, no one has come to know Jesus.


1 John 2:4

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Do you say you know Him, Reformationist? How do you know Him if you must keep His commandments 'perfectly'? Your own belief makes you a liar, since you don't keep His commandments 'perfectly'. And we all know by now, you have no truth in you, since you don't keep His commandments 'perfectly'.


1 John 3:22

and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.

Everybody can forget asking Him for anything, since they don't keep the commandments 'perfectly'.


1 John 3:24

Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

Well, now we see no one abides in God, since they don't keep the commandments 'perfectly'.


1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

No one can experience the love of God, since they don't keep the commandments 'perfectly'. I sure wish His commandments weren't so burdensome.


Revelation 12:17

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

The dragon can sit back and rest, since no one can keep the commandments 'perfectly'. Maybe Jesus didn't know what He was talking about, and falsely warned us about the dragon, since no one can keep the commandments 'perfectly'.


Revelation 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

What in the world is Jesus talking about, no can endure, since they don't keep the commandments 'perfectly'.

You have a messed-up belief system if you think we have to keep His commandments 'perfectly'.

 

[EmSw]

So you don't believe there was actually any change to the constituent nature of man following the Fall?

Okay, so let's explore this scenario you've constructed. Everyone has the all powerful "free will." God wants us to love Him.

Some people choose to love Him. Some people choose to reject Him. What accounts for the difference?

What accounts for the difference? FREE WILL!

Wait, no one can love Him since they don't keep His commandments 'perfectly'.

 

[Reformationist]

EmSw, I'm sorry but I cannot continue to have a conversation like this with you. I understand that you will likely think this means I'm dodging. Honestly, I don't really care. I feel like I'm getting dumber with every post of yours I read. You're the only Christian I've known in all my days that purports that God doesn't demand perfect obedience.

In an effort to address this "perfectly vs. hey, give it your best shot" argument that has developed, I will be creating a new thread. I can only imagine that you're in for a rude awakening. I've been around this MB for more than a decade and, honestly, this is the first time I've ever heard a Christian say God doesn't demand perfect obedience.

 

[Reformationist]

What does God command concerning His commandments? You still haven't shown us in the Bible where God demands 'perfect' obedience. If you can't show us, then you are making this up.

You have a messed-up belief system if you think we have to keep His commandments 'perfectly'.

Here is the thread if you'd like to articulate whatever view it is you hold on the issue:

Perfect or No?

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

So you aren't a new creature; you are the same old creature which obeys sin. Did God not do a good job in creating a new heart in you? Did God not do this 'perfectly'?

Since you can't obey 'perfectly' with a new heart, how do we know you have a new heart?

I agree--mortal humans can never obey perfectly. That's why we have Jesus--who did obey perfectly. The Apostle John said that the Commandments are not burdensome. But obeying the Commandments is a far cry from "obeying perfectly". Jesus said, in effect, that if we even have a lustful thought, it is the same as having committed sexual sin. We have an impossible standard set before us--only Jesus was able to meed that standard. God just asks us to love Him, love our fellow man and keep His Commandments--not perfectly but having a loving heart and desire to please Him with our obedience. Does a kind and loving parent demand perfect obedience? No. However, we are gladdened when our children have loving hearts and the desire to please God. No?