Free or not?

[Kenny'sID]

What on earth are religions teaching men these days.

Weird, ain't it.

 

[Reformationist]

Weird, ain't it?

Not so weird when you think about it. Men have been extolling their own virtues for nearly as long as he has existed. People love, love, love to think they played an active part in their salvation. They love to think they made the correct choice and were rewarded with everlasting life. In short, people love to boast in themselves and their own wisdom and piety. The Scriptures, of course, reveal an entirely different picture of man's appropriation of salvation but, alas, some just want their ears tickled. It's the way some people are. I'm sure you know the type.

 

[Kenny'sID]

People love, love, love to think they played an active part in their salvation. They love to think they made the correct choice and were rewarded with everlasting life. In short, people love to boast in themselves and their own wisdom and piety.

It's all up to us, and that's why people do what you mention. As far as loving to boast about it, I think you are adding that in in order to make it look as though you have a real point.

I know of no serious Christians that boast about it.

 

[Reformationist]

It's all up to us, and that's why people do what you mention.

I totally get it Watson. Some people like to think that God gives out this general offer to all people and the difference in who benefits from that offer are those who are pious enough to make the right choice. I mean, what an amazing scenario. Christ wasn't particular about who He saved, right? He had no real intent to save any particular people, right? He just went out there, willy nilly, hoping and praying that people would be redeemed by His atoning sacrifice, hoping and praying that everyone would make the right decision and avail themselves of that offer of redemption, knowing full well that the efficacy of His actual work on the Cross was contingent on how many people chose to allow His work to be efficacious on their behalf, right? Despite the explicit teachings in Romans, it actually IS about man who wills, right?

I know of no serious Christians that boast about it.

Well, "serious Christians" don't boast about it. "Serious Christians" recognize that salvation isn't a collaborative effort between God and man. "Serious Christians" recognize that they are the recipients of God's redemptive grace on the sole basis that it pleased Him to account them righteous when they were yet His enemy.

Yeah. That's what "serious Christians" do.

 

[Kenny'sID]

GOD desires one thing . FREE WILL OBEDIANCE.

Well, "serious Christians" don't boast about it. "Serious Christians" recognize that salvation isn't a collaborative effort between God and man. "Serious Christians" recognize that they are the recipients of God's redemptive grace on the sole basis that it pleased Him to account them righteous when they were yet His enemy.

Yeah. That's what "serious Christians" do.

Yet you completely skirt the accusation the boasting part is made up. When we have to make things up to get others to believe what we say, what we say is often not true.

No one said it's not a collaborative effort, and of course we are a recipient of his grace....why are you telling me that, has nothing to do with our disagreement? When you throw true comments into a disagreement, it doesn't make your false comments true.

 

[Reformationist]

No one said it's not a collaborative effort,...

Wrong again Watson. I'm saying exactly that. Salvation is NOT a collaborative effort between God and man. That clear it up for you or did you just want to continue to prattle on because you like the sound of your own thoughts?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So, if at the moment of choice, there is nothing exerting any irresistible compulsion, are the choices random or arbitrary?

No.

I didn't say possible. I said predisposed.

"Possible" is as far as I could agree to. They were not made flawed.

And what determined their greatest desire?

Desire.

So, once they ate from the tree, they were no longer subject to what God determined to be good and evil?

Subject, yes.

They were not of course truly autonomous. Sin never delivers what's promised. Their law was self-determined, post-fall, which transformed them from God-serving to self-serving.

 

[EmSw]

Wrong again Watson. I'm saying exactly that. Salvation is NOT a collaborative effort between God and man. That clear it up for you or did you just want to continue to prattle on because you like the sound of your own thoughts?

My, how your attitude has changed. Like a true Reformed enthusiast, you take pot shots at those who disagree with you. I've seen it so many times on here. You didn't come here to get other's insights; you came here to push your own agenda.

If salvation is not a collaborative effort with God, then I can assure you, you aren't saved. If you don't keep His commandments (something man freely does), then you don't know Him and the truth doesn't abide in you. If you want to change this statement from John, you are totally free to do so. Let us see your free will in operation.

 

[more4less]

It says that God had known Jeremiah before He had created the foundation of this earth. And it also says that God had hardened Pharaoh's heart to not let the people go, so that he can test them. A righteous person is someone that had chosen to do what is right. God had put the tree into the garden so that He can test His creation, to unveil their faults, and to remove them.

Proverbs 17:3 The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the Lord tests the heart.

Luke 22:31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat.

Job 1:8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Deuteronomy 8:2 Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands.

1 Chronicles 29:17 I know, my God, that you test the heart and are pleased with integrity. All these things I have given willingly and with honest intent. And now I have seen with joy how willingly your people who are here have given to you.

Isaiah 45:9 “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’?

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Isaiah 4:4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

 

[AlexDTX]

But something prior to the Fall changed that though, right?

Andrew Wommack has an interesting view on the fall of Satan that no one else has ever said. He believes the fall of Lucifer occurred in the Garden of Eden when he saw Adam and Eve. His logic for this conclusion is, "What kind of loving father would allow evil near his innocent children?" So, in his view, God let Lucifer in the Garden because he was still holy and good. But when Lucifer saw how Adam was made in the image of God and he realized that he was not, envy came into his heart. This has some scriptural merit when you consider Ezekiel 28. So, yes, something prior to the Fall changed that.

But that change happened after the Fall, right?

Yes, the moment they sinned by eating the forbidden fruit, their spirits were cut off from God and they died, even though the full manifestation of their death took 900 something years for fulfillment.

So they were no longer free to make decisions that were balanced, is that right?

Yes, this is my opinion. They were no longer able to draw upon the leading of their spirits, which prior to the Fall, was open to Holy Spirit communication. The blood sacrifice that God showed them after He clothed them in animal skin gave them temporary access to God so they were not completely cut off from God.

And what happens if we turn to sin and sensuality after our new birth?

We suffer the consequences which is death. I do not limit the word "death" to just our bodies. It means the death of relationships with people; the death of job opportunities; the death of so many variations that I can not list them all. All sin brings some kind of death.

Are you referring to temporal consequences or eternal consequences?

I refer to temporal, but I can not say regarding eternal. While I do not believe in "once saved, always saved" I do believe that once saved it is extremely hard to walk away from salvation. One must reach a point of delusion that you really believe that evil is good and good is evil. The devil is trying very hard to get believers there, though, through disappointment, crisis, misunderstandings of the sovereignty of God (as though God causes all things to happen including evil), etc. And there is much in Scriptures regarding rewards. So, deliberate sin after being saved will probably diminish eternal rewards, too.

 

[sdowney717]

Was the fall of man in Eden predetermined by God?
Would you say yes when reading this? I would say yes.

1 Peter 1
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Another good thought, it is through Him (alone) that we believe in God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Wrong again Watson. I'm saying exactly that. Salvation is NOT a collaborative effort between God and man. That clear it up for you or did you just want to continue to prattle on because you like the sound of your own thoughts?

And once again, you skirted the accusation, but that's ok, that fact tells me all need to know. Stop making things up, that doesn't help your case, and the name calling isn't doing you a lot of good either.

And no, it doesn't clear up anything to do with what you are peddling here, however to see your reaction to, and lack of forgiveness for a simple mistake/misread, that screams....don't take this guy seriously.

Mind if I ask who is teaching you these ideas?

 

[frienden thalord]

I labored more abundantely than they all, yet not I, but the grace of GOD , that was in me.
Tis soley by the grace of God that we are saved. It is he that drew us , he that draws us to the son
His grace unctions us to do of His good pleasure and will .
But as I said God desires our free will obedience unto this grace.
Obey the Spirit and ye shall live, walk after the flesh and you will die.
Ye cannot be MY disciple IF...........
Why do you call me LORD and do NOT (obey not) my sayings
He who loves me KEEPS (obeys ) my commandments.
Ye are servants to WHOM ye OBEY
whether of sin unto death or the spirit unto LIFE
KEEP (obey) my commandments.
Choose ye this Day whom ye shall serve(obey)
above all things GOD desires our Obediance.
IF a man KEEPS (obeys) my commandments
He who hates me KEEPS NOT(obeys not) my commandments.
Father if it be possible take this cup from me,
nevertheless NOT MY WILL, but YOURS be done.
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
The grace of GOD is not what man has made it . IT teaches us to deny ungodliness
but still we have the choice to choose what we obey,
and we are servants to whom we obey.
GOD desires OBEDIANCE .

 

[frienden thalord]

I cannot boast in me , not one ounce.
IT is Gods Spirit that has unctioned me and given me the abilty.
But daily its a choice. the Spirit reminds us , but if we heed not the Spirit
we will perish.
God desires Obediance, above all things, above sacrifice above everything.
His goodness is what leads us to repentance.
I die daily.
The thing is , JESUS made it very clear why men wont come
or if they do ,why they don't remain.
the lust of others things takes the heart away.
And why they wont come.
MEN love darkness, they love sin, they wont come to the Light
lest their deeds be exposed.
and most fall away due to lust, love of money , some type of hardship
they wont endure for his sake.
OBEDIANCE is what GOD desires. and I say By the power of the spirit
if we walk after the spirit , obey it, mind it, we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
CHOOSE ye this day whom ye shall serve.

 

[frienden thalord]

Were adam and eve given choice.
apparently so. IF not they would have automatically said NO to the serpent.
because the HOLY SPIRIT NOR GOD would teach us to DENY HIM.
FREE WILL CHOICE.

 

[frienden thalord]

they were made perfect , but given free will.
we are made perfect in Christ , yet still have free will.
Now choose ye this day whom you will serve.

 

[frienden thalord]

Gods Holy Spirit did not have eve do evil.
the Spirit teaches us to obey GOD, not disobey.
so many teachers , are teaching blasphemy when they teach
that adam and eve were programmed by God to eat of the tree.
ITS BLASPHEMY .
Adam and eve were created upright
so was satan
so were the angels that fell and those who did not fall.
FREE WILL CHOICE was what all were given.

 

[frienden thalord]

because as I said God desires our free will obedience .
God desires worship. and with worship comes choice.
First comes His love shed abroad on our hearts.
and HE loves all and desires none to perish.
Yet God desires something else , or else he would have just created
all angles, satan, all man, to just have no choice, but just worship Him.
but he gives the free will choice.
Satan was created perfect, I mean absolutely perfect.
He fell. Why...............HE chose to love self over GOD
man fell or the same reason
their is a choice,always has been.
Were we not all once vessels of wrath, were we not all once children of wrath.
LOOK how long suffering GOD was to us. yet many others who are children of wrath
will remain under wrath, for they choose not the Son. God reveals himself to all man.
even through creation. none are without fault, and none innocent .
Christ said he would not return to the earth till the whole of it had the gospel
preached . that means everyone had a chance.
And still so many fall away even after the unction of GODs grace drew them.

 

[frienden thalord]

I see what the problem is.
this came so clear. I am not attacking anyone, so just listen to what I have to say.
Many misunderstand something.
they mistake Being created perfect to also mean no choice was given.
Were the angels created perfect, satan was , so they were too.
was man created perfect, yes, He is the image of God. created upright.
but all were given choice.
Had adam and eve made the right choice they would have remained in perfection so long
as they had lived. But they chose wrong
as have we all, for all have sinned.
Read the scrips, it tells of even satan being created PERFECT.
till inquity was found in Him.
God did not put the iniq

 

[frienden thalord]

inquity in Him. inquity comes by our own choice.
any sin is disobedience to GOD.
Yet GOD desires us to be saved, HE desires not the wicked to perish
but that the wicked REPENT of his wicked way.
The law, could not make us perfect due to our flesh.
the flesh, the carnal mind is enmity with GOD, it cant even receive the things that be of Him.
The way to true worship is found ONLY IN CHRIST .
this too is why I hate that sorry interfaith so much.
WHY do we all think it was so DIRE in the hearts of the early church to EVANGELIZE
they knew true doctrine.
not these doctrines of today, that teach men basically all will be saved dung.
THEY KNEW GOD desired souls to be saved and they KNEW GOD desired OBEDIANCE unto
Him WE need to get back to the real sound doctrine.
mankind, the angels , satan were all created perfect, but they all have choice.