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Scholar in training

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cygnusx1 said:
and how does that show the difference between national and personal Election ?

There is no personal election, per se. That is a very *modern* idea. The ancients always understood God making covenants with peoples and groups; which is why Paul writes about some Israelites being angry that God was now extending salvation to a group that they knew, frankly, doesn't deserve salvation (works vs. grace conflict), the Gentiles (reminds you of Jonah, doesn't it?). So, you see, salvation was not only for the Israelites, but also for the Gentiles. Hence the doctrine of unlimited atonement, a free gift offered to all, but not received by all (thus, not universal salvation).

(Of course, salvation really never has been for only one group; I recall people like Ruth. God doesn't descriminate. He has always taken in people who have come to him and obeyed him, but the difference between then and now is that God is now actively calling for the conversion of Gentiles).

If not , then you have to admit that God is Sovereign in salvation!
Nobody is denying that God is sovereign, we simply understand that sovereignty differently.
 
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john14_20

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LukeBritt said:
If God gave us free choice (or will) to choose to be saved or reject salvation, then wouldn't that make our choice the ultimate factor in whether we are saved or not? If this is so, then isn't this salvation by merit and not by grace?

My opinion on this is simple - you are right!

It does make salvation by merit. We have merited it by our faith.

Any attempt to suggest that faith does not earn us our salvation is fruitless.

Blessings to all, Pete
 
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john14_20 said:
It does make salvation by merit.
How does it do that?

Any attempt to suggest that faith does not earn us our salvation is fruitless.
Why does the possibility of choice equate to "I deserve salvation" or "I have earned salvation"?
 
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john14_20

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Scholar in training said:
How does it do that?


Why does the possibility of choice equate to "I deserve salvation" or "I have earned salvation"?

If I am saved because I have made the right choice and my neighbor is not saved because she has not made the right choice, then how can it not be merited. I earned my salvation. Not by loving folks, or giving my money away or being a missionary - no. I earned it by making the right choice - my choice has become a work.
 
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john14_20 said:
If I am saved because I have made the right choice and my neighbor is not saved because she has not made the right choice, then how can it not be merited. I earned my salvation. Not by loving folks, or giving my money away or being a missionary - no. I earned it by making the right choice - my choice has become a work.
Does the drowning man earn his salvation if he accepts the hand of the sailor pulling him into his boat? Or is it merely a confirmation of the man's will to live, a type of synergism?

I don't define salvation as any one moment (as your example implicitly implies?). I consider the choice to follow God "sanctification", not finished salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith. At the same time, faith without works is dead, just like works without faith. If we persevere in our faith to the end, we will be saved.
 
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cygnusx1

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Scholar in training said:
Does the drowning man earn his salvation if he accepts the hand of the sailor pulling him into his boat? Or is it merely a confirmation of the man's will to live, a type of synergism?

I don't define salvation as any one moment (as your example implicitly implies?). I consider the choice to follow God "sanctification", not finished salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith. At the same time, faith without works is dead, just like works without faith. If we persevere in our faith to the end, we will be saved.

If we have DONE something that in return grants us Grace , mercy , and salvation , then that is merit plain and simple!

That is why the scriptures push Election in a very progressive manner to kill all boasting!



many of the Elect were the worse sinners , and contriwise many of the lost were "good people " by earthly standards ....... but God chose the worst!
 
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cygnusx1 said:
If we have DONE something that in return grants us Grace , mercy , and salvation , then that is merit plain and simple!
But in the scenario I offered (one of the drowning man) grace was offered before he had believed anything. I think that even though he chose to take God's hand, God's offer to him was in itself unmerited.
 
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LukeBritt said:
If God gave us free choice (or will) to choose to be saved or reject salvation, then wouldn't that make our choice the ultimate factor in whether we are saved or not? If this is so,

All men chooses darkness over light john 3:19

then isn't this salvation by merit and not by grace?

God chooses some to salvation ... 2 cor 4:3-6

eph 2:8 faith is a gift from God yet He gives us credit for believing

grace
 
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Scholar in training said:
Does the drowning man earn his salvation if he accepts the hand of the sailor pulling him into his boat? Or is it merely a confirmation of the man's will to live, a type of synergism?
all men are drowning and do not know what they need .....john 3:19

I don't define salvation as any one moment (as your example implicitly implies?). I consider the choice to follow God "sanctification", not finished salvation. We are saved by grace, through faith. At the same time, faith without works is dead, just like works without faith. If we persevere in our faith to the end, we will be saved.

faith without work is dead ... cross out dead and put in barron

2 tim 2:13 Since we are unfaithful[in christian life], yet he abideth faithful: He cannot deniy Himself.

1 cor 6:19-20 God continues to abided in us even though we may choice to walk in the flesh instead of the spirit... but God is still abiding
 
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mlqurgw

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sojourner said:
LukeBritt,


I'll try one more time to show the difference between the word "saved' past tense and the word salvation or "being saved" as used in Scripture.
One other caveat, in may places the word salvation is used to refer to the ultimate goal which is the salvation of man.
Then, to begin, one must understand the fall and the correlation between what was in the beginning and what happened at the fall. There is a direct correlation and it must be followed otherwise you will have the problem that generates this above question.

Let us leave out the whole concept of the fall as if the fall never happened. Adam was created in the Image of God which for this discussion includes having a will. A will that is independent of God's will.
Adam was made good and neutral. By that we mean he was neither mortal nor immortal. Adam had the propensity to achieve either. If he remained in union with God, in direct communication with God man would have achieve and fulfilled the purpose of God creating man in the first place.

This aspect of the purpose of man is the salvation of man. Adam was working with God, using his free will, to fulfill God's mandate for his creation in this universe. This is what we are supposed to be doing in the year 2000 as well.

If you can keep those to aspects separated for a moment, now let us throw in the fall.

Adam sinned. He used his free will to disobey a direct commandent of God and gave in to Satan. Thus the punishment to man and mankind, was death - mortality. Man died and this punishment was consubstantial with our natures. We would inherit this trait of mortality by birth. This is a physical death. This state of death also makes us sin. We sin because we are dead. Thus the phrase dead in our sins and treaspasses.

Thus Adam's sin brought death (mortaltiy) but also separation from God. God and man could not be in Union, nor commune as they had before the fall. Death for man was permanent. Upon death man's body and soul would be separated permanently and thus all human beings would cease to exist.

Thus the question comes, what could man do to move from a mortal state to an immortal one? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. A dead man cannot bring life to himself. As long as man was in this mortal state there would be no hope of ever attaining immortality, (for which we were originally created to be) nor could he ever have communion with God because it would all end in death. There was absolutely no eternal status to mankind or the universe.

What is the answer?

Christ would become man. God would assume man's nature in order to redeem it. To bring it back to life. To move mankind from a mortal state to an immortal state. How is this done?
By assuming man's nature, a consubstantiality with our natures, Christ can by His own death and resurrection, bring life to all of mankind. All of mankind would be eternal. Man thus moved from being mortal to immortal. Mankind now has an eternal quality which eliminates one reason that God could not have unioin with man. It now could last eternally. Also, none would be lost, or destroyed. All men would live.

That was the root problem of man. Death. However, man would still be in a mortal body in this life. Thus man would also still sin in this life. Christ needed to overcome the sin factor as well which He also accomplished by His death. He atoned for the world. He paid the penalty of our sins which would have been eternal death, the second death, or spiritual death. Man can be reconciled to God by forgiveness of his sins and thus God can have union and communion with man in the here and now as well as eternally.

We enter back into union, since Christ corrected the fall, by faith. That is all that is required, faith to overcome the fall which Christ did for us, for the world, for mankind. Man had absolutely nothing to do with it.
However, the union which is what we accomplish with this faith. is what man was supposed to be doing as created creatures. Man, as Adam, now has freedom to obey, to follow Christ, to be obedient to Him, to love Him, as God created him to be.

Those that do not believe are already condemned.

Now, I hope you can rephrase your question. The free will of man has absolutely nothing to do with being saved. All mankind were saved from the fall. BUT, man must make a choice who they will follow. They have been freed and restored in order that they can do this very thing. God has reconciled man so that man could again fulfill his created mandate which is what man fell from when Adam sinned.
Thus the whole thing is all Grace. The saving by Christ in overcoming the fall and being saved which is the salvation of man which is the purpose or reason for Christ's Work on the Cross. We do this all through God.
This would seem to make Christ an afterthought of God. It would also make the work of Christ of no real value until man gives it value by his free-will choice.
 
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mlqurgw

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Scholar in training said:
But in the scenario I offered (one of the drowning man) grace was offered before he had believed anything. I think that even though he chose to take God's hand, God's offer to him was in itself unmerited.
The anology fails because the drowning man had no choice. Actulally, on second thought, it fits better with Calvinism. I willingly chose Christ because He made me see that I had no other choice. What you posit is ridiculous in it's essense. Neither God nor the man seeking to save him that is drowning offers the hand of salvation but both snatch the one in danger out by the best means possible. That's what love does.
 
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cygnusx1

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mlqurgw said:
The anology fails because the drowning man had no choice. Actulally, on second thought, it fits better with Calvinism. I willingly chose Christ because He made me see that I had no other choice. What you posit is ridiculous in it's essense. Neither God nor the man seeking to save him that is drowning offers the hand of salvation but both snatch the one in danger out by the best means possible. That's what love does.

absolutely right mlqurgw :thumbsup:

Dear Reader ,
I don't need merely an offer of help , I need help , I don't need someone telling me how strong they are when I am drowning , I don't want someone telling me they love me , what good are words without actions ?
And yet all anti-Calvinist's posit the idea of a Love of God that actually is far less than love , it is words , it is some unknown feeling , it doesn't take the initiative and it doesn't take the blame , it merely makes a condition open for salvation , if those drowning can pull together their own strenghth and will power and save themselves!
In the anti-Calvinist philosophy God is passive , Grace is passive , and Love is conditional.

take 'common Grace' , consider all the good gifts that are common to all men (sinners and saved) , food , clothing , families , friends etc , are these things given ... or merely suspended upon men's willingness to accept such gifts?

So if things that are common to all men are granted free by Grace and not dependant upon "him who wills or runneth" , then why not salvation ?

Dear reader , that next loaf of bread you eat came by an act of God's loving hand , it had nothing to do with you deciding God could be loving toward you . (Even though we are taught to pray for it
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why make God's Love in it's highest understood capacity appear less than in it's lowest understood capacity !

If common grace is unconditional , then why should it seem strange that Saving Grace also is unconditional.

I fear many have turned the Gospel into Law.
 
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Philip dT

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I think that the image of the drowning man is appropraite, but I do not see it as synergism. The fact of the matter is, a drowning man can willfully reject salvation. But if he wills to accept the salvation offered by the saviour, he will be saved.

His will to be saved however:

1) Does not contribute in any way to his salvation = not a work!
2) Has no ability in itself to accomplish salvation = not earned!
3) Does not make him inherently good or worthy of salvation.

And yet the will is necessary.
 
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cygnusx1

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Philip dT said:
I think that the image of the drowning man is appropraite, but I do not see it as synergism. The fact of the matter is, a drowning man can willfully reject salvation. But if he wills to accept the salvation offered by the saviour, he will be saved.

His will to be saved however:

1) Does not contribute in any way to his salvation = not a work!
2) Has no ability in itself to accomplish salvation = not earned!
3) Does not make him inherently good or worthy of salvation.

And yet the will is necessary.

the image of a drowning man can only work if the man believes he is drowning ...... the point is most men don't believe it , so they laugh at the idea of someone saving them.
Only a man who knows he is truly drowning will cry out for help , and he doesn't want to be told .... "hi there , I am a real lifesaver but I only really give advice , Now I am sure if you try a bit harder you can make it back to the shore " ;)
 
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Elect

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Forest said:
If salvation is a gift from God, why can't you choose to receive or reject the gift? It is still a gift.
The ability to choose Christ comes from God and is not given to everyone. It is not owed to anyone. the one that has freedom of choice here is God. It is God that is totally and absolutely in control of His sovereign grace in the salvation of sinners. It is not the one that runs or that wills, but God who shows mercy on whom He chooses and He hardens whom He will.
 
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mlqurgw

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Philip dT said:
I think that the image of the drowning man is appropraite, but I do not see it as synergism. The fact of the matter is, a drowning man can willfully reject salvation. But if he wills to accept the salvation offered by the saviour, he will be saved.

His will to be saved however:

1) Does not contribute in any way to his salvation = not a work!
2) Has no ability in itself to accomplish salvation = not earned!
3) Does not make him inherently good or worthy of salvation.

And yet the will is necessary.
This is a contradiction. How can the will not contribute in any way to salvation and salvation still be contingant on the will? Also I do not believe the Scriptures present the Gospel of salvation is Christ as an offer but as a gift. God doesn't offer salvation, He gives it. There is a difference. If I offer you money it becomes yours when you take it. You are the one who completes the tranaction and it depends totally on you. If I give you money it becomes yours when I give it to you. I complete the transaction and it depends totally on me.
 
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Philip dT

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This is a contradiction. How can the will not contribute in any way to salvation and salvation still be contingant on the will? Also I do not believe the Scriptures present the Gospel of salvation is Christ as an offer but as a gift. God doesn't offer salvation, He gives it. There is a difference. If I offer you money it becomes yours when you take it. You are the one who completes the tranaction and it depends totally on you. If I give you money it becomes yours when I give it to you. I complete the transaction and it depends totally on me.
But I can still choose to reject your gift.
 
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