Free Choice

[Philip dT]

I don't agree with the premise here .......... the Sciptures talk about the "obedience of Faith " and "obeying the Gospel" .............

'easy believism' is a travesty of the true Gospel (hope ben is reading this) you cannot be saved unless you obey the Lord and repent .

The whole issue of the Lordship (in salvation) controversy showed this .
and men like Zane Hodges have such a distorted view of salvation.

Well, I can only stick to Scripture that says faith unto salvation is not a work. If you can prove from Scripture that faith unto salvation is a work, then I might reconsider.

Rom 4:2-25 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast; but not before God. (3) For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." (4) But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. (5) But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works, (7) saying, "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; (8) blessed is the man to whom the Lord will in no way impute sin." (9) Is this blessedness then on the circumcision only, or on the uncircumcision also? For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. (10) How then was it reckoned? Being in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. (11) And he received a sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith while still uncircumcised; so that he might be the father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be imputed to them also; (12) and a father of circumcision to those not of the circumcision only, but also to those walking by the steps of the faith of our father Abraham during uncircumcision. (13) For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. (14) For if they of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is made of no effect; (15) because the Law works out wrath, for where no law is, there is no transgression. (16) Therefore it is of faith so that it might be according to grace; for the promise to be made sure to all the seed, not only to that which is of the Law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (17) (as it has been written, "I have made you a father of many nations") --before God, whom he believed, who makes the dead live, and calls the things which do not exist as though they do exist. (18) For he who beyond hope believed on hope for him to become the father of many nations (according to that which was spoken, "So your seed shall be"). (19) And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body already dead (being about a hundred years old) or the deadening of Sarah's womb. (20) He did not stagger at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strong in faith, giving glory to God, (21) and being fully persuaded that what God had promised, He was also able to perform. (22) "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (23) Now it was not written for him alone that it was imputed to him, (24) but for us also to whom it is to be imputed, to the ones believing on Him who has raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; (25) who was delivered because of our offenses and was raised for our justification."

 

[cygnusx1]

Well, I can only stick to Scripture that says faith unto salvation is not a work. If you can prove from Scripture that faith unto salvation is a work, then I might reconsider.

Rom 4:2-25 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast; but not before God. (3) For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." (4) But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt. (5) But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also says of the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works, (7) saying, "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; (8) blessed is the man to whom the Lord will in no way impute sin." (9) Is this blessedness then on the circumcision only, or on the uncircumcision also? For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. (10) How then was it reckoned? Being in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. (11) And he received a sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith while still uncircumcised; so that he might be the father of all those believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be imputed to them also; (12) and a father of circumcision to those not of the circumcision only, but also to those walking by the steps of the faith of our father Abraham during uncircumcision. (13) For the promise that he should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. (14) For if they of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is made of no effect; (15) because the Law works out wrath, for where no law is, there is no transgression. (16) Therefore it is of faith so that it might be according to grace; for the promise to be made sure to all the seed, not only to that which is of the Law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (17) (as it has been written, "I have made you a father of many nations") --before God, whom he believed, who makes the dead live, and calls the things which do not exist as though they do exist. (18) For he who beyond hope believed on hope for him to become the father of many nations (according to that which was spoken, "So your seed shall be"). (19) And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body already dead (being about a hundred years old) or the deadening of Sarah's womb. (20) He did not stagger at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strong in faith, giving glory to God, (21) and being fully persuaded that what God had promised, He was also able to perform. (22) "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (23) Now it was not written for him alone that it was imputed to him, (24) but for us also to whom it is to be imputed, to the ones believing on Him who has raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; (25) who was delivered because of our offenses and was raised for our justification."

when scripture says that salvation isn't by works but by faith (upon the GROUNDS of Grace) , that is to leave man with absolutely NOTHING to cling onto to boast about .

but salvation is a work , it is the work of God , God is building a Church and He is setting the pace , and selecting the stones ......... they are in an aweful state to begin with , they have nothing (not even faith) to commend themselves to God.
Yet God who is so very Rich in Grace grants these corse stones a beauty a spleandour that is from Him and Through Him and unto Him.

The work of salvation is also part of man's exercise and gift , he is commanded to work out this salvation (not work for it) by faith ....... and faith without works cannot save ..........

some assume that faith is enough to save , but what exactly is the quality of the faith they are talking about ?
Abraham believed and was justified (aquitted) before God on the grounds of faith by Grace and he then went and did something ... got circumcised ...... say he had just said "I believe" what good would saying it do IF he then did nothing ? that is a barren 'faith' ......... .

James 2

14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16: and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17: So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18: But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.
20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25: And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26: For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.


I don't believe that man's works OR FAITH are the ground for salvation , but Divine Grace alone.

consider how fortunate you were to even hear the Gospel ... was that a lucky thing ? Or was God behind it ?

 

[Van]

Faith is based on the revelation of God, for faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So God is behind it in that He sent His son to save the lost. To be a witness for God. To demonstrate God's love for us.

 

[cygnusx1]

Faith is based on the revelation of God, for faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So God is behind it in that He sent His son to save the lost. To be a witness for God. To demonstrate God's love for us.

God is behind faith because He sent it !

we belive through Grace NEVER unto grace!

 

[Scholar in training]

God is behind faith because He sent it !

we belive through Grace NEVER unto grace!

We do not believe through grace, Cygnus. We believe through faith, but that is possible because of (by) grace.

 

[cygnusx1]

We do not believe through grace, Cygnus. We believe through faith, but that is possible because of (by) grace.

semantics sot ............. you have just contradicted yourself ...........

we believe through grace ........ do you not know it ???

Acts 18:27

When he had determined to pass over into Achaia, the brothers encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him. When he had come, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; (WEB)

And when he was minded to pass over into Achaia, the brethren encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him: and when he was come, he helped them much that had believed through grace; (ASV)

And when he had a desire to go over into Achaia, the brothers gave him help, and sent letters to the disciples requesting them to take him in among them: and when he had come, he gave much help to those who had faith through grace: (BBE)

And when he purposed to go into Achaia, the brethren wrote to the disciples engaging them to receive him, who, being come, contributed much to those who believed through grace. (DBY)

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: (KJV)

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he had come, helped them much who had believed through grace. (WBS)

Then, as he had made up his mind to cross over into Greece, the brethren wrote to the disciples in Corinth begging them to give him a kindly welcome. Upon his arrival he rendered valuable help to those who through grace had believed; (WEY)

and he being minded to go through into Achaia, the brethren wrote to the disciples, having exhorted them to receive him, who having come, did help them much who have believed through the grace, (YLT)

 

[Van]

Assertions without scriptural support is without merit. Faith is our introduction to the faith in which we stand. God is behind His revelation. This is scriptural. Our opportunity to believe in that revelation. This is scriptural. Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture. This is truth.

 

[cygnusx1]

Assertions without scriptural support is without merit. Faith is our introduction to the faith in which we stand. God is behind His revelation. This is scriptural. Our opportunity to believe in that revelation. This is scriptural. Calvinism is a mistaken view of scripture. This is truth.

the above post #46 is not assertions , and it is not without God's word ........... so what exactly are you playing at ... just scroll up , read and receive the good news .

We believe through Grace ... God's word says so !

end of a long and tiresome arguement.

 

[LukeBritt]

We have faith because it was given to us. Faith is a gift, not an act. This is Scripture. Call it what you want: Calvinism, Vanism, Brittism....

 

[cygnusx1]

We have faith because it was given to us. Faith is a gift, not an act. This is Scripture. Call it what you want: Calvinism, Vanism, Brittism....

Too true Luke , but some have dug themselves in that deep into the lie of man's sovereignty , that even though they see it in scripture , that we believe through Grace , they still cannot bow to God's Word ..........

|I am so Glad that Faith is a gift Luke , for there is no way I would have had trust in Christ , or any Love of God , or any salvation if it were not freely granted to me , such is the depth of my own natural depravity...

 

[Philip dT]

when scripture says that salvation isn't by works but by faith (upon the GROUNDS of Grace) , that is to leave man with absolutely NOTHING to cling onto to boast about .

Correct

but salvation is a work , it is the work of God , God is building a Church and He is setting the pace , and selecting the stones ......... they are in an aweful state to begin with , they have nothing (not even faith) to commend themselves to God.
Yet God who is so very Rich in Grace grants these corse stones a beauty a spleandour that is from Him and Through Him and unto Him.

Salvation is indeed a work of God, but that does not include man's faith. God's work of salvation is on the grounds of man's faith.

The work of salvation is also part of man's exercise and gift , he is commanded to work out this salvation (not work for it) by faith ....... and faith without works cannot save ..........

Faith without works which is dead, means that if you your faith does not bear fruit as a result of salvation then something is wrong in your life and needs to be corrected. It is not as if you loose your salvation the moment you do not show works and that you regain it the moment your life shows works... Then salvation would indeed be by works and not by faith. But if your faith continues not to bear fruit, then you might eventually end up losing your salvation (Heb 6:4-6). Why? Because man can resist God's grace and God's work in and through your life. Any person who experience salvation CANNOT keep on sinning (Rm 6:1-6) and CANNOT keep on resisting God in and through him. It has to be a natural outflow of salvation. If not, then he needs to repent and allow God to change him in that area. So "faith without works" does not say something about the nature of saving faith, but it says something about the life and the choices of a saved person. It says something of the "working out(wards)" of your salvation.

 

[cygnusx1]

Correct

Salvation is indeed a work of God, but that does not include man's faith. God's work of salvation is on the grounds of man's faith.

Of course the work of God includes Faith ............ Jesus said "this is the work of God , that you believe"


We believe through grace .............. we don't have faith to get into grace , that is the mistake of the Arminian .
Faith is a grant , a gift , we do not have it by Adam , we have it by Christ.
The natural man is a wretched unbeliever , the spiritual man is endowed with every spiritual blessing .
Faith is the "currency" of the sons of God . By faith we please God , the natural man cannot please God.

Faith without works which is dead, means that if you your faith does not bear fruit as a result of salvation then something is wrong in your life and needs to be corrected. It is not as if you loose your salvation the moment you do not show works and that you regain it the moment your life shows works... Then salvation would indeed be by works and not by faith.

what is interesting to me is how James starts off talking about faith without works ............ he makes such a statement .... "it cannot save you"
So James is certainly taking this subject very seriously and it is at the heart of Soteriology.
Now , I am not saying that works save any man , and I am not saying that God accepts our works without faith .
What I am saying is that works proceed from faith , and Faith proceeds from Grace ... in that order .
It is not works in and of themselves that save us anymore than it is faith in and of itself that saves us ........ it is Grace , Rich , unwarrented , unsought , Grace that was lavished upon us before this world began.

But if your faith continues not to bear fruit, then you might eventually end up losing your salvation (Heb 6:4-6).

there can be no loss of salvation , Christ's body is not maimed , it is whole.

Why? Because man can resist God's grace and God's work in and through your life.

Sadly Grace can be resisted and is resisted as regards 'common grace'.

But as regarding 'Saving Grace' ......... it is never resisted.

Any person who experience salvation CANNOT keep on sinning (Rm 6:1-6)

then how can they lose salvation then ?

and CANNOT keep on resisting God in and through him.

precisely , otherwise nothing would be certain , the whole Church could do what a third of the heavenly host did .......... fall away!

It has to be a natural outflow of salvation. If not, then he needs to repent and allow God to change him in that area. So "faith without works" does not say something about the nature of saving faith,

read James carefully , it indeed DOES say something about saving faith!

but it says something about the life and the choices of a saved person. It says something of the "working out(wards)" of your salvation.

James is not talking about sanctification , he is talking about salvation.

"can his faith (faith without works) save him"

 

[Philip dT]

then how can they lose salvation then ?

and

precisely , otherwise nothing would be certain , the whole Church could do what a third of the heavenly host did .......... fall away!

"CANNOT" not in the sence of "not able to" but in the sence of "not ought to."

Of course the work of God includes Faith ............ Jesus said "this is the work of God , that you believe"


We believe through grace .............. we don't have faith to get into grace , that is the mistake of the Arminian .
Faith is a grant , a gift , we do not have it by Adam , we have it by Christ.
The natural man is a wretched unbeliever , the spiritual man is endowed with every spiritual blessing .
Faith is the "currency" of the sons of God . By faith we please God , the natural man cannot please God.

Incorrect. Rom 5:2 says "Through Him we also have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice on the hope of the glory of God."

there can be no loss of salvation , Christ's body is not maimed , it is whole.

Grace can be resisted (Heb 6:4-6). God's Spirit can be quenched and resisted:
1Th 5:19 "Do not quench the Spirit."
Eph 4:30 "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption."
2 Ti 3:8 "But as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so these also resist the truth, men of corrupt mind, reprobate concerning the faith."

James is not talking about sanctification , he is talking about salvation.

James is talking of believing people that do not bear fruit. You have to read James in its context. The context is AFTER REBIRTH and AFTER saving faith. It is not unsaved people James are talking to, but people who already believed unto salvation. James is not defining salvation. James is showing that if your life does not show fruit / works that has to accompany faith, your salvation is in danger.

 

[cygnusx1]

and

you don't seem to have made up your mind whether Christians are secure in their salvation ..........

"CANNOT" not in the sence of "not able to" but in the sence of "not ought to."

see above ...

Incorrect. Rom 5:2 says "Through Him we also have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice on the hope of the glory of God."

Sure we have access by faith THROUGH HIM into this Grace in which we stand ......... do you know why we have access through faith in Jesus into this Grace ?
when do you suppose God poured out Grace upon us ?

I'll give you a clue ................... before Adam!

Grace can be resisted (Heb 6:4-6). God's Spirit can be quenched and resisted:
1Th 5:19 "Do not quench the Spirit."
Eph 4:30 "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption."
2 Ti 3:8 "But as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so these also resist the truth, men of corrupt mind, reprobate concerning the faith."

I didn't say grace couldn't be resisted ........... I said SAVING Grace couldn't .

James is talking of believing people that do not bear fruit. You have to read James in its context. The context is AFTER REBIRTH and AFTER saving faith. It is not unsaved people James are talking to, but people who already believed unto salvation. James is not defining salvation. James is showing that if your life does not show fruit / works that has to accompany faith, your salvation is in danger.

Salvation is NEVER in danger ................... James is making sure that the faith you have is genuine ....... if it isn't you cannot be saved ........ NOT saved then lost!

 

[Philip dT]

you don't seem to have made up your mind whether Christians are secure in their salvation ..........

No, OSAS is defenitely not biblical. But loosing salvation is to really turn your back completely on God and deny Him after salvation.

I didn't say grace couldn't be resisted ........... I said SAVING Grace couldn't .

Why the destinction? Why would there be a fundamental difference? Why would a person be capable of resisting God's grace after salvation by not before? Would you say one can resist God's grace after salvation just as long and as hard as you like, don't worry, God will still save you!?

 

[cygnusx1]

No, OSAS is defenitely not biblical. But loosing salvation is to really turn your back completely on God and deny Him after salvation.

So some of the church are already in hell !!!!
Therefore Christ has a mutilated body! ..................... I think not!

Why the destinction? Why would there be a fundamental difference? Why would a person be capable of resisting God's grace after salvation by not before? Would you say one can resist God's grace after salvation just as long and as hard as you like, don't worry, God will still save you!?

Because as regarding Election unto salvation there is no resisting God .......... "For who hath resisted His will " ...... ie, no-one has. See Romans 9

 

[Philip dT]

So some of the church are already in hell !!!!
Therefore Christ has a mutilated body! ..................... I think not!

Where do you get this bizarre idea from?

Because as regarding Election unto salvation there is no resisting God .......... "For who hath resisted His will " ...... ie, no-one has. See Romans 9

Rom 9 is not talking about individual election!
In Rom 9, the Israelites are unhappy that the gentiles can now also take part in the covenants (verse 4). This lies close to Paul’s heart that they feel like this, and he is troubled about it, because he is a born Israelite himself (9:2-3). He says that it is not as if the Word of God has failed (9:6), and he shows that those who are children of the promise, are counted as children of God 8). The term “children of the promise” is being explained in 4:16: “Therefore it is of faith so that it might be according to grace; for the promise to be made sure to all the seed, not only to that which is of the Law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.” Therefore, not all those of Israel are Israel, but those who are children of the promise (9:6-8). The Living Bible translates 9:8 with “those who believe the promise of salvation.” Therefore, only those who believe, are part of the promise, if you are an Israelite or not (also see Rom 9:28,32,33). It is therefore not about the election of certain individuals, but about the election of all who believe, Jew or non-Jew.

In Rom 9, it is about the intention of God (9:11). It is about those whom He calls (9:11). What is his intention? Whom does he call? In verse 24, Paul says that God calls of the Gentiles as well as the Jews. The Jews cannot understand that the Gentiles, who did not follow after righteousness, receive it now for free (only by faith: 9:30). They think it is unfair that God also allows Gentiles in his intention, and they even want to strife with God about it. Paul replies that God is sovereign in his actions. He may decide how He wants to save people. The intention of God is not of the one willing or of the one running, but of God’s mercy. Who is the man that wants to take God’s intention in question, how can Israel say to God: “why have you made me this way?” (9:20).

The question that is asked in Rom 9:19 is a question that Paul anticipates: "Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?" To paraphrase the question that Paul anticipates: Why does God find fault with the Jews after God has hardened their heats in order to bring salvation to the non-Jews also (verse 30) for no one could succeed in stopping God from performing his will / purpose anyway? Paul argues that this is actually a silly question, for God did not in fact blame them, for He ought to show His wrath and make His power known, but He did not, He endured with much long-suffering those who were to blame and who deserved hell in the first place (verse 22). By this, God actually did not add more blame, but made known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory (verse 23). This is a paraphrase for the gospel where His grace is shown. And to whom did God's grace came? People from all the nations – Jews included (verse 24). In the New Testament therefore, all people attain the righteousness by faith (verse 30).

The following then from Rom 9:19:

1.The question that Paul addresses is not a question that lies beneath God's working, but a question that he anticipates from his audience.

2.Paul shows that this question is actually inappropriate and that the opposite is true.

3.Paul does therefore not try to retain the idea that God still blames people after He has pre-elected them.

4.The blame on the Israelites was there before he chose to harden their hearts to the gospel. The hardening of their hearts was therefore not a change in their destination, but God used them, even though they were already going to hell, in his plan to bring salvation to all nations.

5.The hardening of hearts does not equal eternal damnation, but serves a higher purpose: namely to bring salvation to all nations.



Rom 9 is therefore about election as election that includes Gentiles. It is not about particular election. Election does not depend upon certain things that count in your favour (like being a physical descendent of Abraham), but upon something without merit, that is faith.

Try another verse...

 

[cygnusx1]

Where do you get this bizarre idea from?

you do realise that all Regenerate men are part of Christ's body .


Jesus doesn't lose any limbs (or lambs)

every soul truly saved is Justified from all sin!

 

[cygnusx1]

Rom 9 is not talking about individual election!
In Rom 9, the Israelites are unhappy that the gentiles can now also take part in the covenants (verse 4). This lies close to Paul’s heart that they feel like this, and he is troubled about it, because he is a born Israelite himself (9:2-3). He says that it is not as if the Word of God has failed (9:6), and he shows that those who are children of the promise, are counted as children of God 8). The term “children of the promise” is being explained in 4:16: “Therefore it is of faith so that it might be according to grace; for the promise to be made sure to all the seed, not only to that which is of the Law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.” Therefore, not all those of Israel are Israel, but those who are children of the promise (9:6-8). The Living Bible translates 9:8 with “those who believe the promise of salvation.” Therefore, only those who believe, are part of the promise, if you are an Israelite or not (also see Rom 9:28,32,33). It is therefore not about the election of certain individuals, but about the election of all who believe, Jew or non-Jew.

In Rom 9, it is about the intention of God (9:11). It is about those whom He calls (9:11). What is his intention? Whom does he call? In verse 24, Paul says that God calls of the Gentiles as well as the Jews. The Jews cannot understand that the Gentiles, who did not follow after righteousness, receive it now for free (only by faith: 9:30). They think it is unfair that God also allows Gentiles in his intention, and they even want to strife with God about it. Paul replies that God is sovereign in his actions. He may decide how He wants to save people. The intention of God is not of the one willing or of the one running, but of God’s mercy. Who is the man that wants to take God’s intention in question, how can Israel say to God: “why have you made me this way?” (9:20).

The question that is asked in Rom 9:19 is a question that Paul anticipates: "Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?" To paraphrase the question that Paul anticipates: Why does God find fault with the Jews after God has hardened their heats in order to bring salvation to the non-Jews also (verse 30) for no one could succeed in stopping God from performing his will / purpose anyway? Paul argues that this is actually a silly question, for God did not in fact blame them, for He ought to show His wrath and make His power known, but He did not, He endured with much long-suffering those who were to blame and who deserved hell in the first place (verse 22). By this, God actually did not add more blame, but made known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory (verse 23). This is a paraphrase for the gospel where His grace is shown. And to whom did God's grace came? People from all the nations – Jews included (verse 24). In the New Testament therefore, all people attain the righteousness by faith (verse 30).

The following then from Rom 9:19:

1.The question that Paul addresses is not a question that lies beneath God's working, but a question that he anticipates from his audience.

2.Paul shows that this question is actually inappropriate and that the opposite is true.

3.Paul does therefore not try to retain the idea that God still blames people after He has pre-elected them.

4.The blame on the Israelites was there before he chose to harden their hearts to the gospel. The hardening of their hearts was therefore not a change in their destination, but God used them, even though they were already going to hell, in his plan to bring salvation to all nations.

5.The hardening of hearts does not equal eternal damnation, but serves a higher purpose: namely to bring salvation to all nations.



Rom 9 is therefore about election as election that includes Gentiles. It is not about particular election. Election does not depend upon certain things that count in your favour (like being a physical descendent of Abraham), but upon something without merit, that is faith.

Try another verse...

Romans 9 is Paul laying out God's Soverign choice of individuals for mercy and for wrath. (Jacob , Esau , Pharoah etc)

the passage isn't primarily to do with Gentiles at all , but it is to do with God and Israel.... and God's MERCY !

The chapter (Romans 9) summed up ..........
How is it if the Jews are God's chosen people and they are deeply loved by God that they are not saved ???
The answer Paul gives is that God sees things completely different to the natural mind.
1st , God's word has not failed , on the contrary it has been fulfilled ...................
many assumed because the Jews rejected Jesus that God's Word including many predictions for the Jews has failed..........
after all the Jews as a nation a people had rejected Jesus.
Paul explains that in fact just the opposite of God's word 'failing' has occured!!!
God's word has been fulfilled to the letter.

Paul then explains using a number of illustrations that God chooses the individual for mercy ... "Jacob I loved"
then Paul does not hide the opposite truth , that God also chooses who He will harden ....... "Esau I hated" and "Pharoah I raised up .... to smash down !!!

Paul then insists God has a perfect right over all clay .........
'free-willers' deny this right , but Paul insists God not man is the potter and we are the clay ..... (man was made from clay)

God being every man's Creator has absolutely every right to do with each person as He sees fit .

But Paul sees a natural objection arise ..........

"but if this is the case , then who can resist God's will ?"

the idea is , how can God act like this , how can God decide the destiny of each creature , and each and every person?
It seems almost beyond belief that God would fashion a person for Glory or for destruction based upon His FREE WILL ....... because then how can He hold us responsible ?

Paul recognises the objections , but instead of denying God's absolute right over HIS creation and assuring the objector that man's free-will has primary focus in God's plan , Paul says that God's Free-will is paramount and man should not baulk at it , for baulking at it is sin and crazy .... who do you think you are , you are just a man , God made you not You God ..... so how do you have the stupidity and the audacity to reply against God!

Finally Paul shows that there is in fact two sides to God's plan .........
God loves Sovereignly (Jacob I loved but Esau I hated and that was before the children were born or had done anything good or bad)

yet ... the vessels of wrath (notice the plural , it isn't just Pharoah in view) fitted to destruction (by God , He is The Potter) have history !!!

It is not merely a question of fitting someone to destruction ..... there is a process involved.

The process is easily spotted by reading the account of Pharoah , yet furthermore this process involves much longsuffering from God over these vessels of wrath ......... God actualy is patient with them and He grants them many wonderful gifts , God does them good , God gives them many opportunities to repent , the only thing stopping them is their miserable sin loving and God hating desires.

and the reason God puts up with this pain , is in order to make known His wrath !

and the reason God has mercy is to make known the riches of His Glory.

Paul then adds that this Sovereign Salvation (for that is precisely what mercy is) is not just for the Jews but also for the Gentiles !

all of these things were predicted , including Israel's fall (and recovery) and the Gentiles being found when they DIDN'T seek God!

 

[Van]

Romans 9:6-33



God invades time and space as necessary to bring his predestined and partially foretold plan of salvation to fruition. Calvinists assert that these limited acts apply to everyone. Thus, Paul did not mean we are saved by grace through faith. Nope, what Paul really meant to say is that we are saved by preselection election through God’s monergistic (non-conditional) choice. As I have said, this is a false doctrine.

This passage clearly teaches that God is sovereign and our salvation does not depend on us (we cannot work our way to heaven). God said to Moses, I will have mercy on who I have mercy and compassion on who I have compassion. So salvation is the gift of God, He grants salvation. I think everybody agrees with this, it is just in the manner of how God grants salvation that people go their separate ways.

Turning now to verse 16, where Paul says it does not depend on the man that wills or the man that runs, we are not saved by placing our faith in God and His Christ, for our action would be "the man that wills" and we are not saved by repenting and doing works worthy of repentance, for that would be a works based redemption. I think everyone agrees with my understanding of the second part of the verse, but some (the Arminians) disagree with me on the first part.

Calvinists offer up Romans 9:16 as a lynchpin verse, demonstrating the truth of Calvinism. But, if interpreted contextually, the verse demonstrates that Calvinism is a false doctrine.

Premise 1 - not necessarily a view held by all Calvinists, but certainly the view offered up some Calvinist, is that God controls every thought and deed, and our reactions and responses to the circumstances presented in our lives are all predetermined by God, we make no choices, and our decisions and actions are an illusion. Sort of a Sci-Fi Matrix theology.

In such a world folks destined for destruction would not need to have their hearts hardened in order to bring forth to fruition God's plan of salvation for those that believe. Calvinists actually teach that everyone is "totally" depraved with "totally" meaning spiritual inability, no one is willing to received the gospel or seek the righteousness of God.

But lets consider Romans 9:16 in context. Romans 9:18 says two things: God has mercy upon whom He desires and He hardens whom He desires. Now to have mercy is to accept the person just as he is, a sinner, and save him in light of his condition. On the other hand, verse 18 says God alters some that He desires, He hardens their hearts such that they reject God and act adversely to God's will in order to impliment God's glorious purpose and plan. In summary, Calvinists say everybody is unable to seek God, but God alters some folks by irresistible grace, and everybody is hardened from the beginning of their lives such that none are willing to seek the righteousness of God. But Scripture actually says the opposite - God has mercy upon us without mention of prior enablement by irresistible grace, but instead God must intervene in the thoughts and motivations of some folks in order to bring about his purpose and plan such as Pharaoh and Esau, He hardened their hearts. Therefore their actions prior to hardening may not have been according to God’s purpose and plan – teaching independent thoughts and actions on the part of men.

Premise 2 – Calvinists teach that none are willing to seek God, yet Romans 9:16 says it does not depend “upon the man that wills” teaching that some men do seek God. Paul concludes chapter 9 of Romans by saying the Gentiles attained righteousness by faith but the Jews did not pursue righteousness by faith. Both groups were willing to pursue righteousness, but one group (Jews) trusted in the Law of Moses and the other group trusted in God and His Christ. The Jews pursuing the righteousness of God stumbled over the stumbling stone. The man that runs in verse 16 is the Jew who stubs his toe on the stumbling stone, he trusts in works of the Law. Paul says rather that trust in the Law of Moses, by which no man is justified, “if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved” (Romans 10:9). Note the “if you” indicating action by the individual seeking the righteousness of God through faith in God and His Christ.

Premise 3 – Calvinists teach unconditional election, God chose specific foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world, before we were conceived in iniquity, and before we demonstrated our depravity by thinking wicked thoughts and doing wicked deeds. In other words, before we were unjust sinners, needing mercy because we were facing the wrath of God due to His just punishment. Therefore this choice did not include mercy, the passing over of our sins, and having mercy upon us. Just the opposite of what Romans 9:18 teaches - for God has mercy upon whom He desires. Choosing folks who are sinners is merciful and compassionate and is consistent with scripture, picking folks as foreseen individuals without regard for their wretched condition is neither merciful nor compassionate. Therefore individual election occurs during our lifetime according to Romans 9:16, because the choice results in God having mercy upon us.

In summary, Romans 9:16 contextually considered teaches that Calvinism is a false doctrine.

Paul digresses a tad in verse 17 and 18 and restates that God is sovereign, and that He invades time and space at His choosing and influences events and people such that His predetermined outcome occurs. Again, this limited action is extrapolated by inference by Calvinists as indicating exhaustive control over everything, but such an extrapolation runs counter to many scriptures and is therefore bogus in my view.

In verse 19 Paul asks a very important question: If God shapes some events, why does God find fault with us who are affected by His influence? And who can resist His will? Lets take the second question first. Nobody can resist the will of God, if God does not allow the individual to resist His will. I think any other view is absurd. So the answer is that God has given us the ability to make choices, to pick what we think is best. And this ability to pick is the will of God. Paul rams this point home by saying who are you to argue with the way God made you, so that you can avoid the penalty for your misdeeds. This provision (God giving us the capacity to make autonomous choices) establishes the justice in God choosing only some of us as vessels of mercy, and while condemning all others including those who reject God and His Christ as vessels of wrath.


Understanding Romans 9:22-23


“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.” (Romans 9:22 NASB)

The phrase, “What if God” indicates what Paul is proposing differs from the perspective offered by his rhetorical questions, “Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?”

This new perspective has God withholding punishment, withholding making His power known. God will not withhold forever. He is coming again; He is going to judge and punish all those whose names are not written in the book of life. But what is the purpose of this interval, while God is withholding making known His power? Why is God enduring with much patience vessels (His human creation made of clay) of wrath prepared for destruction? We will get to the answer in the next verse, but lets consider these vessels of wrath. These are the folks God desires to punish because they are sinners and God is just. How were they prepared for destruction? The many were made sinners by being conceived in iniquity because of being “in Adam.” Now that we have an understanding of verse 22, lets turn to verse 23.

“And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory.”


So the answer to the question of why is God withholding His wrath from sinners prepared for destruction, is in order to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy. Now in order to be a vessel of mercy, one must be a sinner deserving just punishment. So the vessels of mercy are sinners, or in other words also vessels of wrath.

Now how did God prepare beforehand these vessels of mercy for glory? God chose His Redeemer and formulated according to His purpose the method of redemption. His plan was to have mercy upon believers in Christ. And this plan was prepared beforehand because when a sinner chooses to trust in God and His Christ, that brings glory to God (Ephesians 1:5-6, Revelation 16:9).

Bottom line, God is being patient in order to make known to sinners, through the gospel of Jesus Christ, the riches of His glory

Verse 22 again indicates God endures those who choose to reject God with much patience, the vessels of wrath, in order that He might make known via the Gospel, the riches of His glory, which is Jesus Christ, upon vessels of mercy. Now again this next phrase splits the Arminians and Calvinist, "...which He prepared beforehand for glory." Calvinists assert the reference is to foreseen specific individuals chosen before the foundation of the world was laid, i.e. before creation. On the other hand, I think Paul was referring to His plan of salvation which He prepared beforehand and which He brought to fruition. God prepared a mechanism for vessels of mercy to be saved beforehand, and He brought the predestined plan to fruition.

In verse 24, the idea that it was the plan that was prepared beforehand is reinforced because Paul says God called us, God implementing His plan, as foretold in Hosea. And here again we see God selecting Paul individually during His lifetime, but from the womb, as His apostle and then Paul being influenced on the road to Damascus such that Paul saw the light!

Paul sums it up in verses 30-33. The Gentiles did not pursue righteousness, even the righteousness that is by faith. And the Jews who were pursuing righteousness by the Law also failed because they also did not pursue righteousness by faith in God and His Christ.

Bottom line, Calvin stumbled over the stumbling block just as the Jews did, and pursued righteousness (a relationship with God and His Christ) not by faith, but by election. We are saved by grace through faith and not by faithless preselection election. God chooses us, while we are yet sinners (subsequent to our being conceived in iniquity) and baptizes us into the body of Christ based on God accepting our faith (if we believe in our hearts) so salvation is not by the man who wills, but by God's sovereign choice.