Free Choice

[Reformationist]

God reborns people on the basis of their faith. Faith IN ITSELF does not save you. God does.

Where does the faith come from? Why do some people have it and some don't?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Faith unto salvation is an ability to all people, it is not imparted as a means of salvation.

So if all people have the natural capacity to believe unto salvation, what causes some to do so and others to reject their inherent ability to believe?

If so, then faith was pointless, for God would then impart His own belief in Himself. Imparted faith is as if God believes in Himself through man - and God does not have to - He already does.

To that I will simply offer you with the words of St. Augustine:

"Give what Thou commandest, and command what Thou wilt."

Man has to believe. But faith and the will to believe is by no means a work and cannot be reckoned as synergism.

And do you believe that having faith in God and inclining one's will to God in obedience are things that man is inherently capable of? If so, why do some do so and others follow a different path?

If you mean synergism AFTER salvation, then I agree, but our choice to believe in order to be saved is not synergism.

So believing unto salvation is simply a choice man makes? Are non-believers simply being obstinate?

 

[Reformationist]

Yes.


No, that is a heterodox position. Calvinists and Arminians differ over whether or not a person can freely accept or reject God, Arminians have never said that we deserve to be saved in the first place. There is a difference.

So your position is that you deny man deserves salvation but you do submit that he offers up the necessary conditions for salvation?

God bless

 

[Scholar in training]

So your position is that you deny man deserves salvation but you do submit that he offers up the necessary conditions for salvation?

God bless

That sounds about right, yes.

 

[Reformationist]

That sounds about right, yes.

Do you believe this is something all people are capable of doing?

God bless

 

[Philip dT]

So believing unto salvation is simply a choice man makes? Are non-believers simply being obstinate?

Why do some people choose to go on holiday and others not?

 

[Scholar in training]

Do you believe this is something all people are capable of doing?

God bless

I suppose that all people are capable of reaching out to God when and if God calls to them.

 

[sojourner]

Philip dT.

If you mean synergism AFTER salvation, then I agree, but our choice to believe in order to be saved is not synergism.

After salvation it would do no good. One would have died and be in their eternal abode.
Our choice or exercising our will to either reject or accept the Gift of Christ's Work and everything that follows is our salvation. It is a synergistic communion with God. It is the whole purpose of man's creation.
The other other part you are confusing with man's acceptance is the work of Christ. That is the saving of mankind. Saving from the fall. Saving from the bondage to death and sin. Reversing the fall. It is called the redemption of mankind. All of Christ's work respective of redemption has nothing to do with man's will or acceptance. It is the work He accomplished and then gave the gift to all of mankind to choose to accept or reject.

 

[cygnusx1]

I suppose that all people are capable of reaching out to God when and if God calls to them.

it is no where near as simple as that .......... just go and spend a couple of Months reaching out to the Lost , here , on CF ....... go to general Apologetics and reach out in love to the lost with the greatest message of Love ever told , and then come back here and tell us what happened ........ http://www.christianforums.com/f13-general-apologetics.html

this advice and Challenge (often ignored) is for all those who think men are capable of seeking God , and desiring to be saved!

 

[Philip dT]

After salvation it would do no good. One would have died and be in their eternal abode.
Our choice or exercising our will to either reject or accept the Gift of Christ's Work and everything that follows is our salvation. It is a synergistic communion with God. It is the whole purpose of man's creation.
The other other part you are confusing with man's acceptance is the work of Christ. That is the saving of mankind. Saving from the fall. Saving from the bondage to death and sin. Reversing the fall. It is called the redemption of mankind. All of Christ's work respective of redemption has nothing to do with man's will or acceptance. It is the work He accomplished and then gave the gift to all of mankind to choose to accept or reject.

Exercising your will / to choose to be saved is not an "ergo" (work). It has to be there, and it is from man's side, but it is not a work. You seem not to understand what synergism means. A work together with God's work would be synergistic. But faith is not a work.

 

[cygnusx1]

Exercising your will / to choose to be saved is not an "ergo" (work). It has to be there, and it is from man's side, but it is not a work. You seem not to understand what synergism means. A work together with God's work would be synergistic. But faith is not a work.

it is a work , have you ever tried to believe something you struggle with ........

 

[Philip dT]

it is a work , have you ever tried to believe something you struggle with ........

No, it is not:

Rom 4:3-5 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

 

[LukeBritt]

Faith is not a work, but rather a gift and no one exercises a gift before they receive it, do they?

 

[Van]

Romans 5:2 teaches that our faith in Christ is our introduction to the grace in which we stand, our salvation.

 

[sojourner]

Philip dT,

Exercising your will / to choose to be saved is not an "ergo" (work). It has to be there, and it is from man's side, but it is not a work. You seem not to understand what synergism means. A work together with God's work would be synergistic. But faith is not a work.

Exercising ones will is a work. Faith is a gift which we receive, a small seed, in which each man can use. But to use it means to accept it and one works to increase that faith, to build upon it, to strengthen it, to mature it. We do that by works, works that were created for us. God gives us more faith as we work out our salvation. Faith is dead without the attending works. Grace would have nothing to work with, no increase in Grace unless one builds up that faith.
Salvation is faith in action. It is sharing in the divine Life of Christ. Theosis.
Faith, works, suffering, or synergy do not merit us anything or save us in themselves--they merely show our relationship with Christ and our life in Him to be real. Obedience IS our living faith. Living faith IS obedience. We don't believe hard enough, suffer enough, or do enough works to "get" heaven. It remains always a free gift, but our union with our salvation, Christ Himself, is shown by our deeds, as St. James states.

The primary task of the Christian is this progressive healing of his or her own soul from its Adamic birthright of separation and conflict and self assertion...

Belief, faith, works is an organic relationship, thus salvation. They work in concert with and through each other. One does not exist without the other. They acquire the abundant grace that God bestows on all of mankind. They assure that we receive the gift which is beyond anything man could do on his own.

The whole of the Pauline Corpus is a rousing urgency unto ACTIONS on the part of those to whom he is writing, that they should be DOING what is needed to be done, that they should live their salvation, and not lose it - It is unto the unseen warfare with fallen angels who are the princes of this world that we are called into battle, in a contest that requires us to put on the full armor of God, and faith, humility, chastity, vigilance, and obedience form the core of our weapons against these IN CHRIST... Outside of Him, all is vanity. The door to within Him is repentance, then baptism...

 

[Philip dT]

Exercising ones will is a work.

Willing something is not an accomplishment as yet. There has to be action in order for it to be a work. The will on its own is not an accomplishment. Rom 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

 

[cygnusx1]

No, it is not:

Rom 4:3-5 "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

that is a classic distinction to keep salvation by man's works a no go zone.

however , is an act of faith accompanied by any action ?

If it isn't then it is barren ............. even the demons believe that God is one and tremble.

also faith does involve the will , will = effort .............. "I believe , help thou mine unbelief"

and Peter struggled to believe he was walking on water ............ wouldn't YOU!

 

[Philip dT]

that is a classic distinction to keep salvation by man's works a no go zone.

however , is an act of faith accompanied by any action ?

If it isn't then it is barren ............. even the demons believe that God is one and tremble.

also faith does involve the will , will = effort .............. "I believe , help thou mine unbelief"

and Peter struggled to believe he was walking on water ............ wouldn't YOU!

There are different kinds of faith.
1) Faith unto salvation is barren - it is completely empty. It is not to take any action to save yourself but to acknowledge that you cannot save yourself and to accept God's complete work in Christ. Faith unto salvation is a willingness to be transformed. It has the component of entrust.
2) That is different from belief in something as truth (as the demons do).
3) Faith can also be a gift of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:9) wherin a person operate in order for God to perform His will on earth.
4) Faith is also a trust in God for his provision, for needs or for daily life - which is related to 1) but not exactly the same. This is the kind of faith where Peter was lacking.

 

[Van]

Our faith is our introduction to the grace we stand in, no one stands in grace, unless they first believe. There is no verse that says grace, irresistible grace is our introduction to the faith in which we stand. The concept is unbiblical.

Lets go over it one more time. Calvinists teach regeneration before faith. But regeneration means be born again, and no one is born again unless spiritually baptized into Christ's death. Therefore no OT saint was regenerated, yet they believed.

So the premise is demonstrated false. What we have is revealing grace, by what God has made and by His Word, and if we believe, if we put our faith in God and His Christ, then that is our introduction to saving grace.

 

[cygnusx1]

There are different kinds of faith.
1) Faith unto salvation is barren - it is completely empty. It is not to take any action to save yourself but to acknowledge that you cannot save yourself and to accept God's complete work in Christ. Faith unto salvation is a willingness to be transformed. It has the component of entrust.
2) That is different from belief in something as truth (as the demons do).
3) Faith can also be a gift of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:9) wherin a person operate in order for God to perform His will on earth.
4) Faith is also a trust in God for his provision, for needs or for daily life - which is related to 1) but not exactly the same. This is the kind of faith where Peter was lacking.

''Faith unto salvation is barren''

I don't agree with the premise here .......... the Sciptures talk about the "obedience of Faith " and "obeying the Gospel" .............

'easy believism' is a travesty of the true Gospel (hope ben is reading this) you cannot be saved unless you obey the Lord and repent .

The whole issue of the Lordship (in salvation) controversy showed this .
and men like Zane Hodges have such a distorted view of salvation.