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mlqurgw

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Philip dT said:
But I can still choose to reject your gift.
You are missing the point. Let me see if I can make it more clear. Lets say you are dead and I have the ability to give you life, you are blind and I have the ability to give you sight. As long as you have no knowledge of your death or of your blindness you don't belive you need the gift. But if I am able to make you see your need by giving you life and sight you will not reject it. That is what God does for chosen sinners. We all are walking around in death and blindness and like it because we have no knowledge of life and sight. We think we are living and seeing. But God comes and gives life and sight and we see what we were and what we have ben given and would never go back to what we were. Until we have been given life we don't know what life is and don't desire it. Until we have been given sight we don't know what it is to see and don't want it. But oh how we love it and desire it once we have it. God causes us to desire it by giving it to us. It is something He does for us and in us that we cannot and will not do for ourselves.
 
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Philip dT

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You are missing the point. Let me see if I can make it more clear. Lets say you are dead and I have the ability to give you life, you are blind and I have the ability to give you sight. As long as you have no knowledge of your death or of your blindness you don't belive you need the gift. But if I am able to make you see your need by giving you life and sight you will not reject it. That is what God does for chosen sinners. We all are walking around in death and blindness and like it because we have no knowledge of life and sight. We think we are living and seeing. But God comes and gives life and sight and we see what we were and what we have ben given and would never go back to what we were. Until we have been given life we don't know what life is and don't desire it. Until we have been given sight we don't know what it is to see and don't want it. But oh how we love it and desire it once we have it. God causes us to desire it by giving it to us. It is something He does for us and in us that we cannot and will not do for ourselves
You seem to be missing the point. If we are spiritually dead, we are not physically dead. We still have a will, the ability to choose and a conscience.
 
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mlqurgw

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Philip dT said:
You seem to be missing the point. If we are spiritually dead, we are not physically dead. We still have a will, the ability to choose and a conscience.
Yes we have a will. It is the weakest part of us. We can do nothing by simply willing. I am amused that man takes the weakest part and elevates it to make eternity to hinge on it. Our will is in bondage to our nature. Our nature is sin. It is like a caged lion, it can walk about within it's cage and roar but thats all it can do. If it were let out of it's cage it would rip and tear and devour. No I have not missed the point. I did wilingly choose Christ, just as all others who are saved. But I could not and would not until God gave me life and sight to see that I needed Him. That is the sense in which we say He makes us willing. God does not drag a man to Christ against his will but, by the Spirit, convinces us of sin because we believe not on Christ, of righteousness in the death of Christ as our substitute and representative and justification by the imputed righteousness of our Lord, and judgment because our sin has been judged in Christ. ( John 16:8-11 )

Jer 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

 
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Philip dT

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Our will is in bondage to our nature.
This is not correct.
To understand the human nature, it is necessary to consider Adam’s position towards it, and the influence that sin had on the human nature as a whole. Adam’s sin caused sin to reign in this world. Sin reigned by one man’s offence (Rom 5:17). This was the result of the curse of God in Gen 3:17. Everybody died in Adam corporately (1 Co 15:22). In the same way, everyone who is resurrected to eternal life is resurrected in Christ corporately (see for example the interesting parallel between 1 Co 15:22 and Col 2:11-15). It has everything to do with the condition in the flesh or the human nature (sarx). Since Adam's sin, man’s nature is corrupt (cf. the parallel with Adam’s discovery of his nakedness: Gen 3:7). On the question if there is a correlation between the human will and nature, the interpretation of Rom 7 is decisive:

The well-known saying of Paul:“I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do,” is often used to express a general struggle in a believer’s live. But exegesis of the inherent structure of Rom 7 shows that Paul describes the condition of the man in the flesh (the unconverted man) (see Ridderbos:1966). There are textual markers that point that out. Verse 5, that says: “when we were in the flesh” stands in contrast to verse 6: “But now we have been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held.” He makes a clear distinction between the two conditions or ways of existence. From verse 9 to verse 25, Paul elaborates on the condition of the old man. In the whole portion his thrust stays the same. Verse 9 says: “I was alive without the law once.” In verse 14, he speaks about the condition as carnal and sold under sin (that means that he has not been redeemed by the blood of Christ). The same is true of verse 18: “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing.” The Spirit of God obviously does not live in him yet. In verse 24 he says: “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” This is a cry for salvation. The “body of this death” is in this context the wretched and unsaved condition that longs for deliverance. In verse 25b he refers to the condition that he has just described. “So then… I myself serve.” Verse 25b says the same as verse 18, only in other words.

Some interpret verse 25b as the condition of the new man, as it follows chronologically after the sigh for deliverance (verse 24), and understand verse 18 also as the condition of the new man (for verse 25b and 18 corresponds). This cannot be maintained, for Rom 8 removes any possible ambiguity. Here is a definite turning point: “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” Now the condition of the new man is being discussed in contrast to Rom 7, where the condition of the old man has just been discussed. Rom 8:9 says for example: “You are not in the flesh.” It stands in contrast to Rom 7:14 that says: “…I am carnal…” and verse 18 that says: “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing.”

In this light then (the fact that Rom 7:9-25 is about the old man), the relation between will and nature is clarified.

In 7:18 Paul says that to will (to do good) is present with him, but he cannot perform it. In verse 25b, which is a summary of the old man, he talks about his mind (parallel with verse 18-19: that is his will) that serves the Law of God, but with his sinful nature, he serves the law of sin. Paul therefore explains the condition of the old man as a condition where the will to do good is present, but the ability to perform it, is not present (because of the sinful nature that still prevails). In this way, he distinguishes clearly between will and nature.

The implication of this is two-fold:

1. The human nature can be measured in a polar way (good versus bad or saved versus unsaved). The human nature is the determining factor to man’s destination. Someone that is and stays in the sinful nature, will be lost, but someone of whom the sinful nature has been removed, (Col 2:11), is saved and has eternal life.

2. The will is on a different level than the human nature. It has to do with his choice, but it does not categorise man regarding his destination. The same will (that wants to do good) is both present with the saved and unsaved. One can only look at the modern conscience to conserve nature, to eat right, or to maintain world piece. In fact, Rom 2:14-15 shows that the Gentiles who have no Law, they do the things of the Law naturally, for their conscience also bear witness, and the thoughts between one another accuse or even excuse one another.



...
 
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Philip dT

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As Rom 7:25b points out (that correlates with 7:18-19), the human mind (nous) is closely connected to his will (qelw) (cf. Rom 2:14-15). The ability that man has in his corrupt condition to distinguish between good and evil (Gen 2:9,17; 3:5) is on the level of the will and mind, but it does not make man good as far as his being or nature is concerned.
 
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cygnusx1

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Philip dT said:
Absolutely, what about people who murder their families?

I fail to see the connection ........... I was using illustrations of Love

"can you choose to love your children ?

Can you choose to hate your Mother ?"



are you saying those who love their families can choose to slay them ?
 
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Philip dT

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I fail to see the connection ........... I was using illustrations of Love

"
can you choose to love your children ?

Can you choose to hate your Mother ?"



are you saying those who love their families can choose to slay them ?
Why would not all people love their families?
 
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cygnusx1

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Philip dT said:
Why would not all people love their families?

WOW!

I have no idea why .

you can research it , and search for probable cause , but I don't think you will find it .

all I am saying is IF a person truly loves someone they will not choose to kill them (exceptions in scripture are always for a higher love , love of God)

If the will is that free , watch out your friends might decide to do away with you!

Now that is a clear invitation to paranoia.
 
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mlqurgw

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Philip dT said:
This is not correct.
To understand the human nature, it is necessary to consider Adam’s position towards it, and the influence that sin had on the human nature as a whole. Adam’s sin caused sin to reign in this world. Sin reigned by one man’s offence (Rom 5:17). This was the result of the curse of God in Gen 3:17. Everybody died in Adam corporately (1 Co 15:22). In the same way, everyone who is resurrected to eternal life is resurrected in Christ corporately (see for example the interesting parallel between 1 Co 15:22 and Col 2:11-15). It has everything to do with the condition in the flesh or the human nature (sarx). Since Adam's sin, man’s nature is corrupt (cf. the parallel with Adam’s discovery of his nakedness: Gen 3:7). On the question if there is a correlation between the human will and nature, the interpretation of Rom 7 is decisive:

The well-known saying of Paul:“I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do,” is often used to express a general struggle in a believer’s live. But exegesis of the inherent structure of Rom 7 shows that Paul describes the condition of the man in the flesh (the unconverted man) (see Ridderbos:1966). There are textual markers that point that out. Verse 5, that says: “when we were in the flesh” stands in contrast to verse 6: “But now we have been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held.” He makes a clear distinction between the two conditions or ways of existence. From verse 9 to verse 25, Paul elaborates on the condition of the old man. In the whole portion his thrust stays the same. Verse 9 says: “I was alive without the law once.” In verse 14, he speaks about the condition as carnal and sold under sin (that means that he has not been redeemed by the blood of Christ). The same is true of verse 18: “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing.” The Spirit of God obviously does not live in him yet. In verse 24 he says: “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” This is a cry for salvation. The “body of this death” is in this context the wretched and unsaved condition that longs for deliverance. In verse 25b he refers to the condition that he has just described. “So then… I myself serve.” Verse 25b says the same as verse 18, only in other words.

Some interpret verse 25b as the condition of the new man, as it follows chronologically after the sigh for deliverance (verse 24), and understand verse 18 also as the condition of the new man (for verse 25b and 18 corresponds). This cannot be maintained, for Rom 8 removes any possible ambiguity. Here is a definite turning point: “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” Now the condition of the new man is being discussed in contrast to Rom 7, where the condition of the old man has just been discussed. Rom 8:9 says for example: “You are not in the flesh.” It stands in contrast to Rom 7:14 that says: “…I am carnal…” and verse 18 that says: “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing.”

In this light then (the fact that Rom 7:9-25 is about the old man), the relation between will and nature is clarified.

In 7:18 Paul says that to will (to do good) is present with him, but he cannot perform it. In verse 25b, which is a summary of the old man, he talks about his mind (parallel with verse 18-19: that is his will) that serves the Law of God, but with his sinful nature, he serves the law of sin. Paul therefore explains the condition of the old man as a condition where the will to do good is present, but the ability to perform it, is not present (because of the sinful nature that still prevails). In this way, he distinguishes clearly between will and nature.

The implication of this is two-fold:

1. The human nature can be measured in a polar way (good versus bad or saved versus unsaved). The human nature is the determining factor to man’s destination. Someone that is and stays in the sinful nature, will be lost, but someone of whom the sinful nature has been removed, (Col 2:11), is saved and has eternal life.

2. The will is on a different level than the human nature. It has to do with his choice, but it does not categorise man regarding his destination. The same will (that wants to do good) is both present with the saved and unsaved. One can only look at the modern conscience to conserve nature, to eat right, or to maintain world piece. In fact, Rom 2:14-15 shows that the Gentiles who have no Law, they do the things of the Law naturally, for their conscience also bear witness, and the thoughts between one another accuse or even excuse one another.



...
Of course I disagree with your interpretation of Rom. 7. I hope to get to a detailed response very soon but I have something else to do at the moment. If you would allow me some time.
 
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Philip dT

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WOW!

I have no idea why .


you can research it , and search for probable cause , but I don't think you will find it .

all I am saying is IF a person truly loves someone they will not choose to kill them (exceptions in scripture are always for a higher love , love of God)

If the will is that free , watch out your friends might decide to do away with you!

Now that is a clear invitation to paranoia.
The answer is simple. Love is a choice!
 
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Philip dT

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So you can choose to love or hate the one's you love ?
Yes I can. If you meet a person, you choose to love and to continue to love that person. With time the love and trust relationship grow. But:

1) Fundamentally a commitment into a love relationship is a choice.
2) Even then, trust from both sides does not mean that nothing can go wrong.
3) People in love relationshops do not always FEEL lovingly towards the other person, but they choose to continue to commit and to trust.
 
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mlqurgw

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Philip dT said:
This is not correct.
To understand the human nature, it is necessary to consider Adam’s position towards it, and the influence that sin had on the human nature as a whole. Adam’s sin caused sin to reign in this world. Sin reigned by one man’s offence (Rom 5:17). This was the result of the curse of God in Gen 3:17. Everybody died in Adam corporately (1 Co 15:22). In the same way, everyone who is resurrected to eternal life is resurrected in Christ corporately (see for example the interesting parallel between 1 Co 15:22 and Col 2:11-15). It has everything to do with the condition in the flesh or the human nature (sarx). Since Adam's sin, man’s nature is corrupt (cf. the parallel with Adam’s discovery of his nakedness: Gen 3:7). On the question if there is a correlation between the human will and nature, the interpretation of Rom 7 is decisive:

The well-known saying of Paul:“I do not do the good that I desire; but the evil which I do not will, that I do,” is often used to express a general struggle in a believer’s live. But exegesis of the inherent structure of Rom 7 shows that Paul describes the condition of the man in the flesh (the unconverted man) (see Ridderbos:1966). There are textual markers that point that out. Verse 5, that says: “when we were in the flesh” stands in contrast to verse 6: “But now we have been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held.” He makes a clear distinction between the two conditions or ways of existence. From verse 9 to verse 25, Paul elaborates on the condition of the old man. In the whole portion his thrust stays the same. Verse 9 says: “I was alive without the law once.” In verse 14, he speaks about the condition as carnal and sold under sin (that means that he has not been redeemed by the blood of Christ). The same is true of verse 18: “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing.” The Spirit of God obviously does not live in him yet. In verse 24 he says: “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” This is a cry for salvation. The “body of this death” is in this context the wretched and unsaved condition that longs for deliverance. In verse 25b he refers to the condition that he has just described. “So then… I myself serve.” Verse 25b says the same as verse 18, only in other words.

Some interpret verse 25b as the condition of the new man, as it follows chronologically after the sigh for deliverance (verse 24), and understand verse 18 also as the condition of the new man (for verse 25b and 18 corresponds). This cannot be maintained, for Rom 8 removes any possible ambiguity. Here is a definite turning point: “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” Now the condition of the new man is being discussed in contrast to Rom 7, where the condition of the old man has just been discussed. Rom 8:9 says for example: “You are not in the flesh.” It stands in contrast to Rom 7:14 that says: “…I am carnal…” and verse 18 that says: “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing.”

In this light then (the fact that Rom 7:9-25 is about the old man), the relation between will and nature is clarified.

In 7:18 Paul says that to will (to do good) is present with him, but he cannot perform it. In verse 25b, which is a summary of the old man, he talks about his mind (parallel with verse 18-19: that is his will) that serves the Law of God, but with his sinful nature, he serves the law of sin. Paul therefore explains the condition of the old man as a condition where the will to do good is present, but the ability to perform it, is not present (because of the sinful nature that still prevails). In this way, he distinguishes clearly between will and nature.

The implication of this is two-fold:

1. The human nature can be measured in a polar way (good versus bad or saved versus unsaved). The human nature is the determining factor to man’s destination. Someone that is and stays in the sinful nature, will be lost, but someone of whom the sinful nature has been removed, (Col 2:11), is saved and has eternal life.

2. The will is on a different level than the human nature. It has to do with his choice, but it does not categorise man regarding his destination. The same will (that wants to do good) is both present with the saved and unsaved. One can only look at the modern conscience to conserve nature, to eat right, or to maintain world piece. In fact, Rom 2:14-15 shows that the Gentiles who have no Law, they do the things of the Law naturally, for their conscience also bear witness, and the thoughts between one another accuse or even excuse one another.



...
This is all I have time to do right now. It isn't a detailed response as I would like but I am off to Atlanta to visit my daughter who soon will give me my first grandchild.

Your efforts to seperate will and nature, while ingenious, are incorrect. The Apostle Paul, who had been a believer for at least twenty years when he wrote Romans, is writing about the two natures that exist in the believer. In context he is speaking about the believers and the law. We come to verse 9 and he tells us his experience. He was alive without the law once. He went about keeping the law but had no knowledge of the condemning aspect of it and thought he was alive. When the law came to him in the Spirit he died. Notice that he uses the past tense in this portion, " I was". Then we come to verse 14 where he uses the present tense, 'I am". He uses this tense through the rest of his narrative of his experience of grace. He deals with the same subject in Gal. 5:17. The flesh lusting against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. Believers do exist in this world as a people with 2 natures that influence the will. I believe the Scriptures are very cleart that our wills are as depraved as our natures. We simply cannot will to do something that is not in our nature to do. A dog barks because it is it's nature to do so. It cannot meow or chirp even if it wanted to. Our wills are bound, that is fenced in, by our nature. We simply cannot will ourselve to do something that is not in our nature.
 
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cygnusx1

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Philip dT said:
Yes I can. If you meet a person, you choose to love and to continue to love that person. With time the love and trust relationship grow. But:

1) Fundamentally a commitment into a love relationship is a choice.
2) Even then, trust from both sides does not mean that nothing can go wrong.
3) People in love relationshops do not always FEEL lovingly towards the other person, but they choose to continue to commit and to trust.

would you describe Love as a conscious choice ?

I mean when you see your firstborn son , do you say to yourself ..... "now look here Philip , I am going to have to make a choice about my love or hate for my son ....... , better make it love "

and do you make an ongoing conscious descision to love your son ?

I don't!
 
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holdon

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mlqurgw said:
A dog barks because it is it's nature to do so. It cannot meow or chirp even if it wanted to.

I have always be amazed about this argument.

Can you bark, meow, chirp when you want to?: yes you can. (imitate).

So, this shows that nature and will are different.

Even people with the Adamic nature are held responsible, knowing good and evil.
To say that they can't be held responsible because of a different nature (like: he could never bark), is subversive of Scripture.
 
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mlqurgw

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holdon said:
I have always be amazed about this argument.

Can you bark, meow, chirp when you want to?: yes you can. (imitate).

So, this shows that nature and will are different.

Even people with the Adamic nature are held responsible, knowing good and evil.
To say that they can't be held responsible because of a different nature (like: he could never bark), is subversive of Scripture.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
 
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Philip dT

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would you describe Love as a conscious choice ?

I mean when you see your firstborn son , do you say to yourself ..... "now look here Philip , I am going to have to make a choice about my love or hate for my son ....... , better make it love "


and do you make an ongoing conscious descision to love your son ?

I don't!


I have a daughter of five months old. And yes. Love is a choice. Everything in life is a choice. I can choose not to love her. Absolutely. And I choose to continue to love her. I commit to that.

Why do you think the devorce rate is so high in western society? I think it is because people do not understand love:

1) Either they think it is a feeling
2) They think it is predestined on them (regarding marriage). The famous hollywood saying: "It's my destiny." And then one day they do not see love happening. And then they think they were not "destined" (or "meant" for each other) in the first place.

Then they devorce.
 
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Philip dT

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This is all I have time to do right now. It isn't a detailed response as I would like but I am off to Atlanta to visit my daughter who soon will give me my first grandchild.

Your efforts to seperate will and nature, while ingenious, are incorrect. The Apostle Paul, who had been a believer for at least twenty years when he wrote Romans, is writing about the two natures that exist in the believer. In context he is speaking about the believers and the law. We come to verse 9 and he tells us his experience. He was alive without the law once. He went about keeping the law but had no knowledge of the condemning aspect of it and thought he was alive. When the law came to him in the Spirit he died. Notice that he uses the past tense in this portion, " I was". Then we come to verse 14 where he uses the present tense, 'I am". He uses this tense through the rest of his narrative of his experience of grace. He deals with the same subject in Gal. 5:17. The flesh lusting against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. Believers do exist in this world as a people with 2 natures that influence the will. I believe the Scriptures are very cleart that our wills are as depraved as our natures. We simply cannot will to do something that is not in our nature to do. A dog barks because it is it's nature to do so. It cannot meow or chirp even if it wanted to. Our wills are bound, that is fenced in, by our nature. We simply cannot will ourselve to do something that is not in our nature.

mlgurgw,

Two things:

1) Rom 8:9 says "you are not in the flesh but in the spirit." The people Paul is addressing - they are NOT in the flesh. Being in the flesh is being unborn and not being born again from spirit (Jh 3:5). Also see 1 Pt 1:23. So, Paul talks about TWO WAYS OF EXISTENCE:

a) Being unborn - living in the flesh - having a sinful nature. This determines your destination.
b) Being reborn - born from the Spirit - living in the Spirit - having a devine nature (2 Pet 1:4; Col 2:11-13). This determines your destination.

2) Rom 7 is talking about the old man. It is not the tense that is decisive, but the line of thought. The "I am carnal" and "I am sold under sin" (7:14) is talking about the sinful, unborn existence. Rom 8:2 says that the law of the spirit has set him free from the law of sin and death. Being reborn is NOT BEING in a state af being sold under sin any more!!!!

The two ways of existence has to do with the spiritual state of man - it is in the realm of the spirit. The renewing of the mind (Rom 12:2) and the conscious choice to live according to the spirit/Spirit is in the realm of the soul (will, mind, emotions).

Being altered/transformed in will does not change your destination. Only being transformed in the spirit by rebirth does. After rebirth, being transformed in will and mind helps you do live more in line with your newly creatred nature (2 Cor 5:17).

So, essentially, having a will to do good before rebirth or other way round (having a will to do bad after rebirth) does not say anything about your nature. Your identity as being either a child of satan or a child of God is determined by the substance of your nature (either carnal or spiritual).
 
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mlqurgw

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Philip dT said:
mlgurgw,

Two things:

1) Rom 8:9 says "you are not in the flesh but in the spirit." The people Paul is addressing - they are NOT in the flesh. Being in the flesh is being unborn and not being born again from spirit (Jh 3:5). Also see 1 Pt 1:23. So, Paul talks about TWO WAYS OF EXISTENCE:

a) Being unborn - living in the flesh - having a sinful nature. This determines your destination.
b) Being reborn - born from the Spirit - living in the Spirit - having a devine nature (2 Pet 1:4; Col 2:11-13). This determines your destination.


2) Rom 7 is talking about the old man. It is not the tense that is decisive, but the line of thought. The "I am carnal" and "I am sold under sin" (7:14) is talking about the sinful, unborn existence. Rom 8:2 says that the law of the spirit has set him free from the law of sin and death. Being reborn is NOT BEING in a state af being sold under sin any more!!!!

The two ways of existence has to do with the spiritual state of man - it is in the realm of the spirit. The renewing of the mind (Rom 12:2) and the conscious choice to live according to the spirit/Spirit is in the realm of the soul (will, mind, emotions).

Being altered/transformed in will does not change your destination. Only being transformed in the spirit by rebirth does. After rebirth, being transformed in will and mind helps you do live more in line with your newly creatred nature (2 Cor 5:17).

So, essentially, having a will to do good before rebirth or other way round (having a will to do bad after rebirth) does not say anything about your nature. Your identity as being either a child of satan or a child of God is determined by the substance of your nature (either carnal or spiritual).
Would you disagree that believers are a people of 2 natures then? I think I will better understand your position and how to respond if you answer this question. And I do again apologize for my tardiness in response. I have many things that require my attention and sometimes am unable to get back in a timely manner.
 
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