Founders: Family Tree within WOF and examining Who Founded WOF in all expressions?

[now faith]

Saying one doesn't see "color" in teaching God's Word is true on some levels but not on others. For it's akin to saying "I'm color blind" when it comes to recognizing where others have differing experiences due to their backgrounds/ethnicities - it's like saying you don't see a tiger with its stripes. With God's Word, contexualization is what I am talking about and others such as Fredrick Price made the messages in the Faith Movement of relevance to Black communities and the issues they were dealing with - Hagin, however, did not introduce his message to Black communities.

I disagree on Hagin,his message was not limited.

I disagree on Fredrick Price,his message is not proprietary in context to Blacks.

You asked for our opinion on who we believe are Founders,then move the premise to segregation.

One man I listen to Preach often is Bishop Dale Bonner.

Oddly he preaches with the name WORD OF FAITH in bold letters behind the pulpit.

That would be my reason for considering him WOF.

I consider him to have the gift of prophetic utterance as well also being highly intelligent,and well versed in God's Word.

Word of Faith is a movement,that has no other constraints out side of God's Word.

We are Blessed to be part of this unique yet diverse theology.

Unless WOF becomes a denomination with dogma and doctrine,it will remain a ideology consisting of Faith in God.

The founder of WOF is God's Word,to be a part of it all we need do is believe God's Word.

One thing I find common among WOF Teachers and Preachers is the usage of the Bible in their sermons rather than how they feel about it.

And most certainly with the exception of its forum WOF Preachers do not dwell on the criticism of other beliefs in the Body.

Yes it is positive confession,because there can be nothing negative in what God has done.

Galatians: 3. 26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This passage is not conditional up on how poor or rich you are or where you live.


James: 2. 1. My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3. And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4. Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? 5. Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I disagree on Hagin,his message was not limited.

I disagree on Fredrick Price,his message is not proprietary in context to Blacks. You asked for our opinion on who we believe are Founders,then move the premise to segregation.

Nonetheless, Price - not Hagin - was the one who was noted and has been consistently noted to be the man who introduced WOF to African-Americans overall since he studied it from Hagin and spoke in ways which made WOF relevant to the situations Blacks went through. It's easier to understand if being black yourself/seeing the issue of language with how things are conveyed...and Hagin's message was not universal, otherwise everyone would have known about it at the time.

There is no avoiding the reality of cultural differences, which is the reason why Hagin was called out by Fredrick Price when it came to the Dake Study Bible that was utilized and noting why so many in the African-American movement did NOT find it easy to work with others in white communities advocating mindsets that were counter to the Word - as shared before already:

One of the great reasons that the movement exploded so successfully (IMHO) was their ability to walk in love towards one another and help/promote one another in spite of some doctrinal differences because they didn't honor just the doctrine, but rather the anointing/office they held. Now some of these men were part of the doctrinal roots of WOF, while others were part of the charismatic roots of WOF

...with WOF, what's interesting is that the Charismatic side of things is also tied with the MULTI-CULTURAL side of things as well - seeing that many have pointed out that the roots of true faith are also centered in racial diversity....just like the early Church. I'm reminded again of the work of Fred Price and where disagreements occurred between him and Hagin.

Hagin, who Price supports, had a book called "What to do when Faith Seems Weak and Victory Lost." The book was based on a sermon outline that Dake had in his book "God's Plan for Man" titled "Ten Things to Do When Faith Seems Weak and Victory Lost." Hagin gave Dake full credit for the outline in the intro of the book. Hagin and others have used Dake's teachings extensively......and some of this goes back to the issue of how WOF was developed from the practice of studying other sources. Hagin preached a number of sermons from other sources...with an example being Kenyon's sermons which were trascribed later. It was a normal practice of that time, no different than what happens with many today in Reformed theology when they're constantly regurgitating Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, John Piper, RC Sproul, etc. Most today did not come to their Calvinistic conclusions by simply studying Scripture....as they were influenced by men and they preached what they preached, many times word for word.

There are no quotes by Dake calling himself WoF, though other examples of him being connected with WOF would be seen in how the autobiography of Dake that was written by Leon Bible has a forward in it by Marylin Hickey where she talks about the times that Dake came to preach at their church. Hickey is WoF...and thus, with Dake preaching in her church, there's some connection with Dake and the WoF. Add to the fact that Dake Bible Sales company sells books by many Word Faith teachers as well...and so because of all of that, the WOF welcome Dake to the WoF family.

Most WoF use his material...and I remember when Fred Price stepped down from Rhema Bible School due to what he percieved to racisim being promoted within his work. Dr. Fred Price boycotted it and made an entire series against Dake which accuses him of racism. During the late nineties, Dr. Fredrick K. C. Price gave a three year study entitled “Racism in the pentecostal Church” (more found here) where he cited the Dake’s Bible and exposed many racial slurs Mr. Dake included in his Bible. Fredrick Price also made a book on the issue entitled Race, Religion & Racism: Perverting the Gospel to subjugate a people -.

In the Dakes Bible, there's one part containing the statements he said under "30 reasons for segregation of races." in page 159 of the New Testament....and of course, some of what he noted is understandable. For seventy-five years ago, when Finis Dake was alive, racism was much more accepted (tolerated) than it is today. . And Dake wrote his KJV with notes in 1954, as well as being born and raised in Georgia.

Moreover, most whites in the early part of the 1900s were racist by our current standards....and some still have aspects of that in their vocabularly. I recall being in one church fellowhship where another elderly white lady was talking to me about Jesus---and though she was noting how much the Word says we should love each other, I was shocked to see how she still called blacks the "N" Word and thought nothing of it (i.e. "God loves all who come to him in faith...and I think !#^* are some of the sweetest people ever"). All I could do was smile and nod at her comment, seeing that I was one of the few black people at the fellowship---and I thought that as much as she had changed, there were still many things that'd be difficult to change when growing up in a certain era. Dake was probably no different.


Concerning the notes, older versions from 1987 and on to the late 90's has the 30 items in question. They are notes for Acts 17:26. However, the 1997 Computer version of Dakes does not have these notes since they have been replaced with a "toned down" version. For the sake of informational perposes, I decided to place it up here (as I saved them from back in the day)[/HTML]:

Dake Charts »Front Matter »Summary of Acts

Acts 17:26

a[one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth]


Separation in Scripture

This verse says God made "all nations of men" from "one blood"; it also speaks of "the bounds of their habitation." In spite of a common ancestry, from Adam first and later Noah, it was God's will for man to scatter over the earth, to "be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 1:28; Genesis 8:17; Genesis 9:1). Man's failure to obey caused God to confuse his language (Genesis 11:1-9) and to physically separate the nations by dividing the earth into continents (Genesis 10:25). Both physically and spiritually, separation has been a consistent theme for God's people:

1. Separation for Messiah's line:

(1) Before and after Noah's flood, fallen angels (sons of God in § Genesis 6:1-4, notes) married human women and had giant offspring. This was done to corrupt the human race and prevent the birth of the Messiah, the Seed of the woman prophesied in Genesis 3:15.

(2) Destruction of the corrupt human race was the reason for the flood in Noah's day. See note, § Genesis 6.

(3) God preserved Noah because he and his family were the only pure Adamites left. See note, § Genesis 6:9.

(4) Satan continually tried to prevent Messiah's birth by corrupting Israel through intermarriage with Canaanites whose race included giant offspring. One reason for Israel's separation as a nation was to preserve their purity for the birth of the Messiah. See note, § Genesis 24:3.


2. Separation in Israel:

(1) Abraham forbade Eliezer to take a Canaanite wife for Isaac (Genesis 24:1-4). God was pleased and He directed whom to get (Genesis 24:7-67).

(2) Isaac forbade Jacob to take a Canaanite wife (Genesis 27:46-28:7).

(3) Abraham sent the sons of his concubines and his second wife far away from Isaac so their descendants would not mix (Genesis 25:1-6).

(4) Esau's disobedience deeply grieved his parents (Genesis 25:28; Genesis 26:34-35; Genesis 27:46; Genesis 28:8-9).

(5) Two branches of Isaac remain separate forever (Genesis 36; Genesis 46:8-26).

(6) Ishmael's and Isaac's descendants remain separate forever (Genesis 25:12-23; 1 Chron. 1:29).

(7) God forbade Israel to intermarry (Exodus 34:12-16; Deut. 7:3-6).

(8) Intermarriage caused disunity among God's people (Numbers 12).

(9) Enemies remained in the land as a penalty for this (Joshua 23:12-13).

(10) Intermarriage caused a curse on Israel (Judges 3:6-7; Numbers 25:1-8).

(11) This was Solomon's sin (1 Kings 11).

(12) It was a sin of Jews returning from Babylon (Ezra 9; Ezra 10; Neh. 13).

(13) God told Israel to be separated (Leviticus 20:24; Numbers 23:9; 1 Kings 8:53).

(14) Jews are recognized as a separate people in all ages because of God's choice (Matthew 10:6; John 1:11).

(15) Separation between Jews and all other nations is to remain in eternity (Isaiah 2:2-4; Ezekiel 37; Ezekiel 47:13-48:35; Zech. 14:16-21; Matthew 19:28; Luke 1:32-33; Rev. 7:1-8; Rev. 14:1-5).

(16) Certain people in Israel were not to worship with others (Deut. 23:1-3; Ezra 10:8; Neh. 9:2; Neh. 10:28; Neh. 13:3).


3. Miscellaneous separation:

(1) An ox and an *** could not be worked together (Deut. 22:10).

(2) Stock was forbidden to be bred with other kinds (Leviticus 19:19).

(3) Sowing mixed seed in the same field was unlawful (Leviticus 19:19).

(4) Different seeds were forbidden to be planted in vineyards (Deut. 22:9).

(5) Wearing garments of mixed fabrics forbidden (Deut. 22:11; Leviticus 19:19).

4. Christian separation: Christians to be separate from certain people at times (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Cor. 5:9-13; 1 Cor. 6:15; 2 Cor. 6:14-18; 2 Thes. 3:6,14; 1 Tim. 6:5; 2 Tim. 3:5).__________________

​

Minus the fact that much of the interpretation of these verses in terms of racist/ethnocentric views is wrong and needs to be addressed on the principal of the matter, it makes sense for Price to do as he did since Fred Price was a graduate of Rhema Bible School and a world famous WORD of FAITH teacher....and as other Charismatic and Pentecostal ministers ignored the racist remarks in Dakes Bible for over 50 years, something needed to be said....just as it was with other camps who had the same issue, such as John Weslely denouncing other great preachers like Jonathan Edwards for actively supporting the institution of slavery---despite Edwards being a remarkable theologian and renouned for his "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and helping start the Great Awakening Revival

Price's "Race, Religion & Racism, Vol. 1: A Bold Encounter With Division in the Church" went into great depth discussing the historic lies propagated in the church that Blacks were inherently inferior and therefore needed to be segregated from Whites, particularly from white women..and he also went into great depth showing how authors such as Charles Carroll and Bible scholars Cyrus Ingerson Scofield and Finis Jennings Dake used the Bible to justify separation/segregation. I appreciated what Brother Price noted when it comes to the reality that neither color or ethnicity matter with God. ...and ESPECICALLY in regards to marriage, I appreciated how Price sought to show that Gods only prohibition regarding marriage is whether a believer is joined with someone who is not a believer. Dake Family Publishing agreed to allow Dr. Leon Bible to rewrite Dake’s and remove the racial slurs that were in review. However, the newer Dake’s Bible that others have seen do not mention the revision (As I'm aware)

With Price and his series on racism, it had many far reaching ramifications---as he noted comments by others regarding interracial dating and marriage as being wrong, such as those he pointed out made by Kenneth Hagin, Jr., the son of his own mentor. And as Price made clear, Sunday mornings are still the most segregated time in America...and historic problems such as slavery and segregation could never have existed without the consent of the Church--nor is it possible for seperation in churches/differing ethnic groups to continue today without the Church saying its okay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8_JrwOc_ow&index=43&list=PLwozmomzNyZJA2hXr7T88gNroXDci0Jmk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ze3xfUazyY

Dr. Frederick K C Price - Race, Religion & Racism - Race (4-5-98) - YouTube

Price didn't stop being WOF because he critiqued Hagin. It was necessary..

Again, I know the context I was speaking from - and segregation was never SEPARATE from the issue of foundations. Segregation also includes cultural differneces not being acknowledged or realized, which is why Price was so influential in opening the doors for others to see what even Hagin did not seen or teach on. And growing up in the Faith Movement, it was not hard to see - nor something that can easily be ignored

 

[Gxg (G²)]

One man I listen to Preach often is Bishop Dale Bonner.

Oddly he preaches with the name WORD OF FAITH in bold letters behind the pulpit.

That would be my reason for considering him WOF.

I consider him to have the gift of prophetic utterance as well also being highly intelligent,and well versed in God's Word.

I'm aware of Dale Bonner - very intriguing individual and I am glad for his passion for Christ.

Word of Faith is a movement,that has no other constraints out side of God's Word.

Nonetheless, the movement itself (which is based in seeking to study the Word) still does so within a certain system of interpretation on the Word - much of it in line with other movements that preceded it, such as the Higher Life movement and Faith Cure movement and others (which all sought to focus on God's Word). Other camps within Christendom have various views on the issue that are indeed interesting to witness when it comes to the subject of God's Word - although the Scriptures themselves did not come out of nowhere and that's something (for me) that makes a big difference - more in Solo versus Sola Scriptura: What?s the Diff?

We are Blessed to be part of this unique yet diverse theology.

Unless WOF becomes a denomination with dogma and doctrine,it will remain a ideology consisting of Faith in God.

Without being a demonination, it can still be denominational-esque in the way that differing camps exist within it even as there is no central dogma on the issue - as having Faith in God is central but the expressions have differed on how that looks...including other branches that flow from that/intersected with it. As said before, in example, many reference founders within the WOF movement who spoke on the issue of FAITH in God being the ideology to follow - yet even other groups evolved from others that people called the founders of WOF referenced. Others referenced Smith Wigglesworth in the same way Hagin and others did - and those groups grew into movements such as Bethel (with Kris Vallotton ) or IHOP( International House of Prayer) and other groups - as they alongside WOF all evolved out of the Latter Rain movement that began with Seymour and others. Even with other groups such as Assemblies of God, Lester Summural and Gordan Lindsay used to be well-fitted in that world until the work around their activities/doctrines which were not approved by the AOG led to them being kicked out to begin life on their own/start doing what they did....but their AOG Roots could never be ignored as impacting their theology on some level...but Faith in God as an ideology was very much central for them in the same way others in the WOF MOvement today say.

The founder of WOF is God's Word,to be a part of it all we need do is believe God's Word.

Certainly, if gong from that standard, God's Word unites all from many differing backgrounds (including those outside of the WOF movement if they are not aware of it) since others can be WOF due to their faith in what God has said even though they did not grow up within the Modern Day Faith Movement or have any experience with others.

One thing I find common among WOF Teachers and Preachers is the usage of the Bible in their sermons rather than how they feel about it.

And most certainly with the exception of its forum WOF Preachers do not dwell on the criticism of other beliefs in the Body.

Yes it is positive confession,because there can be nothing negative in what God has done.

Galatians: 3. 26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This passage is not conditional up on how poor or rich you are or where you live.


James: 2. 1. My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3. And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4. Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? 5. Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

More than understand...

 

[victoryword]

Moreover, most whites in the early part of the 1900s were racist by our current standards....and some still have aspects of that in their vocabularly. I recall being in one church fellowhship where another elderly white lady was talking to me about Jesus---and though she was noting how much the Word says we should love each other, I was shocked to see how she still called blacks the "N" Word and thought nothing of it (i.e. "God loves all who come to him in faith...and I think !#^* are some of the sweetest people ever"). All I could do was smile and nod at her comment, seeing that I was one of the few black people at the fellowship---and I thought that as much as she had changed, there were still many things that'd be difficult to change when growing up in a certain era. Dake was probably no different.

Gxg

You are to be commended for this. As a Black man I have had similar experiences with some White Christians and I have allowed myself to never take offense but walk in love. But yes, the shock you get when someone (unintentionally) refers to you as a "negro" (or worse) does test the love walk in a serious way.

 

[hhodgson]

Gxg (G2)

Wow Gabe... (before I start, I can't seem to quote you with my Quote button and also the Post Reply. The response field is always blank. I know there is a way for I've seen others quote your posts seemingly without this problem. Can you advise?

This is one of (very few) threads that I will archive. At this point the only reference I used is the video of the (13) minute segment by Dr. Price on the three year study entitled "Racism in the pentecostal Church." That segment by itself was an enormous eye-opener. As Dr. Price went through the study... The majority of the knowledge in the report (if, not all) wasn't told to either of us. I would recommend all viewers to really read (not skim) through your posts in this thread (not just for WoF history), but be knowledgeable of the African American Christian impact on the early church in general. I can't think of a better place to start then right here. I would start with the same video segment of Dr. Price. A very, very informative (13) minutes as a starting foundation of the rest in your posts. This is found here.

I made an earlier comment in (Post 12) that my head was already spinning up to that point in this thread from all the references, videos and such. I myself am guilty of "some" skimming of my own in a few posts in earlier threads. My reason for archiving this thread is because of the (33) or so references you gave including (8) videos up to this point of this thread. There are several other references you also gave that were not highlighted but can be googled. When I say "archive" in this case... I don't mean (as I have done others)... "a place to store away" as defined by a dictionary. All of it should be read as time permits.

To be clear... I don't have any issues about all the references. I say, "bring them on." We as the Church of Jesus Christ need to know...

Good stuff Gxg...
​

 

[hhodgson]

Gxg

You are to be commended for this. As a Black man I have had similar experiences with some White Christians and I have allowed myself to never take offense but walk in love. But yes, the shock you get when someone (unintentionally) refers to you as a "negro" (or worse) does test the love walk in a serious way.

Right on Troy...
​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gxg (G2)

Wow Gabe... (before I start, I can't seem to quote you with my Quote button and also the Post Reply. The response field is always blank. I know there is a way for I've seen others quote your posts seemingly without this problem. Can you advise?
​

Not certain as to why that is the case in your computer - although I do know that every computer is different and I've had what you experienced occur before. I generally tend to simply copy & paste the answers others give if I cannot post them via quote button - and then I let them know what's going on.

On a side note, who told you my name was Gabe? I was curious - as the only person I've told that to before is AMB - although as my full name is Gabriel (and I generally don't call myself "Gabe"), it always surprises me whenever it comes up.

This is one of (very few) threads that I will archive. At this point the only reference I used is the video of the (13) minute segment by Dr. Price on the three year study entitled "Racism in the pentecostal Church." That segment by itself was an enormous eye-opener. As Dr. Price went through the study... The majority of the knowledge in the report (if, not all) wasn't told to either of us. I would recommend all viewers to really read (not skim) through your posts in this thread (not just for WoF history), but be knowledgeable of the African American Christian impact on the early church in general. I can't think of a better place to start then right here. I would start with the same video segment of Dr. Price. A very, very informative (13) minutes as a starting foundation of the rest in your posts. This is found here.

I made an earlier comment in (Post 12) that my head was already spinning up to that point in this thread from all the references, videos and such. I myself am guilty of "some" skimming of my own in a few posts in earlier threads. My reason for archiving this thread is because of the (33) or so references you gave including (8) videos up to this point of this thread. There are several other references you also gave that were not highlighted but can be googled. When I say "archive" in this case... I don't mean (as I have done others)... "a place to store away" as defined by a dictionary. All of it should be read as time permits.

To be clear... I don't have any issues about all the references. I say, "bring them on." We as the Church of Jesus Christ need to know...

Good stuff Gxg...​

[/INDENT]

Many thanks for sharing as you did - and glad to know that the history itself blessed you and has been of benefit. I do hope that it helps to add another dimension to the issue of culture and the way it always impacts faith in its expressions. If wanting to know on the African aspect of things when it comes to impact, you could go to #39 for starters - and there is also the dynamic of seeing social factors surrounding the climate of faith movements developing ....one thread dedicated to that being Confederate States of America: What Would've Happened if the South Won the Civil War. for one example

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gxg

You are to be commended for this. As a Black man I have had similar experiences with some White Christians and I have allowed myself to never take offense but walk in love. But yes, the shock you get when someone (unintentionally) refers to you as a "negro" (or worse) does test the love walk in a serious way.

Trust me, Troy, when I say that it was very difficult to hold myself back - in the same way that I find it difficult whenever I've encountered other believers speaking on the way Christ should be glorified and yet acting as if aspects of their system are not really a negative because they ignore multi-cultural realities.

But it happens. I always trip out whenever people in the Charismatic and Pentecostal movement celebrate others who were seen as founders - and yet ignore where they had racism present and never acknowledged that God hated mistreatment of others on that basis. Charles Parham (who was the one giving Seymour his initial ministry opportunities) always comes to mind since WOF would not be here without his work - and yet it is unfortunate that the man was a member of the KKK. For references, one can go here or here:

• Charles F. Parham and His Role in the Development of the Pentecostal Movement: A Re-Evaluation.

• Across the Lines: Charles Parham?s Contribution to the Inter-Racial Character of Early Pentecostalism, by Eddie Hyatt : The Pneuma Review

 

[now faith]

Nonetheless, Price - not Hagin - was the one who was noted and has been consistently noted to be the man who introduced WOF to African-Americans overall since he studied it from Hagin and spoke in ways which made WOF relevant to the situations Blacks went through. It's easier to understand if being black yourself/seeing the issue of language with how things are conveyed...and Hagin's message was not universal, otherwise everyone would have known about it at the time.

There is no avoiding the reality of cultural differences, which is the reason why Hagin was called out by Fredrick Price when it came to the Dake Study Bible that was utilized and noting why so many in the African-American movement did NOT find it easy to work with others in white communities advocating mindsets that were counter to the Word - as shared before already:

​

Again, I know the context I was speaking from - and segregation was never SEPARATE from the issue of foundations. Segregation also includes cultural differneces not being acknowledged or realized, which is why Price was so influential in opening the doors for others to see what even Hagin did not seen or teach on. And growing up in the Faith Movement, it was not hard to see - nor something that can easily be ignored

I disagree,with Price in the videos you have provided,racism is not proprietary to Blacks,the Church is not a stage to present social issues.

Based on his ideology the Roman Catholic Church practiced racism on far more people and color was not the reason as well.
By his definition racism is a means that others seek to control the achievment and economic status of others outside their of there creed.

Since the beginning,racism has flourished no matter the color of a man.
How do you think the Samaritans felt about the Jews?

Price is a gifted man of God,a gifted teacher,and is Word of Faith.

As far as social reform he is lacking.
Not one time did he mention the plight of any other races who have endured great injustice.
if you think Blacks were treated unfairly try being Native American.

But as always someone presumes to know what cultural back ground another has as if they do not relate to injustice.

This entire topic is ridiculous,by tossing the race card in it detracts from the point of the thread.
or was race the point of the thread?
Do we need the advice of Al Sharpton to explain who Word of Faith founders are?

I will stand on Paul's teaching about the Body of Christ I posted already,for the rest it is a ugly straw man.

 

[now faith]

Gxg

You are to be commended for this. As a Black man I have had similar experiences with some White Christians and I have allowed myself to never take offense but walk in love. But yes, the shock you get when someone (unintentionally) refers to you as a "negro" (or worse) does test the love walk in a serious way.[/

Galatians: 4. 6. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. - Bible Offline

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I disagree,with Price in the videos you have provided, racism is not proprietary to Blacks,the Church is not a stage to present social issues.

Claiming racism as proprietary to Blacks (in reaction to what Price said) is NOT listening to what Price actually said when it came to noting how racism specifically impacts Blacks in the context they live in. There's racial impacts in all settings (a basic example being how the Irish were mistreated by the English/placed in slave trade just as Blacks) - but in regards to Blacks, the audience is spoken to in regards to where racism impacts them.

That said, Seeing that the Church dealt with social issues (be it slave vs. master relationships per Ephesians 5-6 or Colossians 3:19-23 or Philemon - or with issues of racial reconcilliation per Acts 6 when certain groups of Jews were being overlooked due to their ethnic background and Stephen/others were chosen to handle it - or Christ with the Samaritans per John 4 and Luke 10:25-39..etc.), it really doesn't line up with the Word to claim otherwise and it's not even how early believers in the Church handled things.

Dealing with multicultural realities was a part of what scripture spoke on often - Acts 10:28 with addressing the Jewish/Gentile Divide and Luke 9:51-56 in the Jewish/Samaritan Divide

Believers in Christ have never been called to avoid social issues - it's why issues such as slavery/apartheid were taken seriously...why others who were starving in the streets were seen as people God called us to take care of and so many other issues. And if that was the case, then those within the Faith Movement itself would be hypocritical for speaking on social issues such as impoverishment/economic struggles with poverty in the same way Hagin and others did. It actually goes against what other founders who influenced WOF leaders/founders did - especially others such as William Seymour, if actually taking seriously the work he did .

Price said what needed to be said when it came to noting what the Word of God said on how we're to relate to all people - with others not wanting the Word being some of the most aggressive when he called out others for advocating things like interracial-dating being a sin (as was the case in the Dake Bible and others from the 19th century). For reference:

• Rude Awakening on Racism Gave Minister New Mission - Los Angeles Times

• He's Still Not Afraid to Confront

• Racism and Racist Lies Part 3 - Kenneth E. Hagin, Jr. Racist Sermon 10/01 by Bible Truth by Benny | Religion Podcasts

• Paying the Price

As said explictly:

The Rev. Fred Price, pastor of the predominantly black Crenshaw Christian Center in Los Angeles, has severed long-standing ties to a leading white Pentecostal ministry in Oklahoma over the issue of interracial dating and marriage.

During a series of sermons on racism that were broadcast last winter on his nationally syndicated TV program, Price played excerpts from a taped sermon by a minister who said that young white Christians should not date people of other races.

Price did not identify the speaker on the tape, but next month's issue of Charisma magazine, a Pentecostal monthly published in Lake Mary, Fla., identifies the minister as the Rev. Kenneth Hagin Jr. of Tulsa, Okla.

....Price received the tape in question about six years ago, but did not decide to break with Hagin until recently. According to Charisma, Price wrote to Hagin Sr. about his son's statements but did not get a satisfactory response. After another letter met with no response, Price told his 16,000-member church and his television audience that he was forced to break his fellowship with the minister, whom he still declined to name publicly.

"Principle means more to me than friendship," Price said.

​

Sorry - but as long as people in the Faith Movement (or anywhere else) say and do things that go counter to the Word of God when it comes to how he has called others to be, it will be noted just as others did .....such as William Seymour.

That said, if actually dealing with what others within WOF have said, one would actually have to deal with what Price said on the issue - and for that matter what others within the Faith Movement have also spoken about it when actually dealing with how the Faith Message has been applied in differing ways to address people in scenarios which other cultures may not have to deal with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzDYzfAOkSA

And even other founders within WOF such as Lester Sumrall dealt with the subject in-depth with accuracy and precision in regards to the Scriptures:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsI366eaEGs&list=PL20E3FE9332079091

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdjJl_5Q_hA&list=PL20E3FE9332079091&index=2

Based on his ideology the Roman Catholic Church practiced racism on far more people and color was not the reason as well.

Seeing that the RCC is not the only place where practiced racism occurred (as it has also happened within the Protestant world as well - even though there were PLENTY within both the Catholic Church and the Protestant world that resisted it actively/devoutly as God commanded), it needs to be noted that color was NEVER an issue that was avoided. That's a basic historical fact that needs to be addressed if wanting to go down that path - but on the issue, as said before, racism itself is not something limited to one group within the Body of Christ.

For the sake of reference, on places this has been covered before:

• Major theological differences of Reformation & Evangelicalism?

Some of this has been discussed before elsewhere - as seen here:

It's hard to help many realize how African Protestantism was mediated through Protestant missionaries in the context of Colonialism (with African Protestantism being its own branch in multiple levels) - meaning that of course the main/dominant leaders that get brought up as the "Founders" tend to be those who are European\......

The same, of course, goes for Catholics seeing how it seems not many want to talk on the extensive ways they did the SAME things as the Protestants they try to group together when it comes to minorities having a DIFFERENT view of history in how they weren't considered. This comes to mind specifically with dynamics such as Liberation Theology - and how often I've seen it where Black Catholics have long noted that they always had a radically different understanding of Catholic Theology than other Catholics when it came to seeing solidarity with other Blacks who were Protestants...while other Catholics that were NOT Black seemed to be the main ones arguing on why Protestants and Catholics were not to work together whatsoever - and the same thing goes for Hispanics as well when it comes to Hispanic/Latino Hispanic Catholics seeing solidarity with those who are non-Catholic in the struggles they went through .....Liberation Theology uniting both groups together.
. ....

For anyone interested..

Some of this is based in what was discussed earlier in another thread dealing with historical groups in the Radical Reformation and the Reformation - seeing which modern groups would qualify for today (as discussed here and here and here).

Some good books I've read on the issue that you'd probably would find it good to invest in are African Reformation: African Initiated Christianity (By Allan Anderson - who considers the developments of African Initiated Christianity to be JUST as monumental as the Protestant Reformation) - as well as Music in the Life of the African Church ( By Roberta Rose King)......Towards Liturgies that Reconcile: Race and Ritual Among African-American and European-American Protestants by William Scott Haldeman... or Reshaping Protestantism in a Global Context - Page 52 ​

For a good review on the issue, one may wish to consider going online and looking up an article under the name of "The Dunamis Word - What Does 21st Century Holiness Look Like?" . The article is made by a man named Pastor Harvey Burnett. He's a wonderful man of God whom I've always loved talking with. For he's one whom I used to blog with years ago on another site....and he's also very knowledgable of many of the backgrounds concerning the Black Church as well as Church History in general.

..I shared this with another recently as it concerns the history behind the Black Church - as history of the Black Church (more shared on it in #229 - as well as the history of blacks in the OT/NT in #14 /#16 ) - is a multifaceted reality and not something that's in any way monolithic....especially when considering the dynamic of intercultural connections and splicing of cultures:

• God In America: The Black Church | PBS
• Summary of The History of the Negro Church
• African American Church History - Christian Timelines
• Black Churches, Black Theology and American History - PBS
• Africans in America| Part 3 | Narrative: The Black Church - PBS
• Black Christianity Before the Civil War: Christian History Timeline ...

To me, I always find it amazing when going back and considering the extensive amount of ways that the slaves, in their example, were so in line with the Spirit of how things were done in the Early Church /Ancient Faith.....and what the prophets of the OT/NT preached on when it came to suffering for the Lord/righteousness and looking unto Him for deliverance. The book An Unbroken Circle: Linking Ancient African Christianity to the African-American Experience (more here) is one of the best historical reads present (if not the best) which helps to break that down - by Fr Moses Berry ( curator of the Ozarks Afro-American Heritage Museum and rector of Theotokos “Unexpected Joy” Orthodox Church in Ask Grove, Missouri).

​

Upon its publication in 1997, An Unbroken Circle: Linking Ancient African Christianity to the African-American Experience, broke new ground in Orthodox writing. And many people have found this book to be an invaluable resource, both for personal growth and for Orthodox outreach as well as general understanding of the ways the Body of Christ came together....

​

But outside of seeing the ways that Blacks were connected to Eastern Christianity, within American culture it often seemed that Black churches had a very distinct categorization from other groups when it came to the ways they lived out their own faith.

Why I Sing Amazing Grace: The African-American Worship ExperIENCE

The History of The Black Church - The Beginning

​

 

[now faith]

We are going backwards,not ahead when we set ourselves apart from the Body of Christ.
Prices comment on whites being afraid of Blacks and his comment that whites,do not want blacks to have success because of Blacks having tremendous talent..
I am done if others want to build social barriers go right ahead.

Trying to justify a them against us point of view,is putting lipstick on a pig it is still ugly.

As far as Churches being involved in social issues? Fine just keep them out of the pulpit.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Since the beginning,racism has flourished no matter the color of a man.How do you think the Samaritans felt about the Jews?
.

Respectfully (and to be frank), None of this really deals with the issue of racism as it concerns addressing it wherever it shows up - for just as Christ dealt with it in HIS day when it came to racial problems against Samaritans (or Gentiles) with regards to the Jews, it was the case that other generations had the same battle and dealt with it in the same manner Jesus did.

Jesus didn't go in ignorant of Samaritan culture/demanding Samaritans live like the Jews - or claiming that all Gentiles HAD to be like Jews when speaking to Peter in Acts 10-11 - or act as if the Gentiles had the right to demand that Jews cease being Jewish in their lifestyles. Christ and His disciples knew how they were called to address racial realities...

Some of this was already covered more in-depth elsewhere - as seen in Creflo Dollar Adpots White Baby...and thoughts on Black Familes Adopting White Kids. As I've shared elsewhere on that subject, In a multi-cultural church, the goal is have every tribe and tongue and nation all together worshipping the Lord---and reaching all groups around them if it's within their power...and I'm glad to have been apart of that growing up. At the church I grew up in, known as Liberty Church of Marietta, under Pastor John Ficthner (who was saved in Faith Movement and who helped the church become a Charismatic/Evangelical Church with many in the Faith Movement present - from Joseph Garlington to Marilyn Hickey coming soon for one of the church conferences). The pastor and elders literally had to FIGHT FOR BEING MULTI-CULTURAL (and this from a WHITE PASTOR whose congregation was predominately white and HALF LEFT when he started preaching about practicing racial reconcilliation rather than merely theorizing/preaching about it. It truly blessed my mother and I since we had never seen a church truly like that to that degree back in the late 90's. The series we first heard from him was "Racial Reconcilliation":

R

• acial Reconcilliation 1
• Racial Reconcilliation 2
• Racial Reconcilliation 3
• Racial Reconcilliation 4
• Racial Reconcilliation 5
• Racial Reconcilliation 6

Price is a gifted man of God,a gifted teacher,and is Word of Faith.

As far as social reform he is lacking.
Not one time did he mention the plight of any other races

Seeing (again - if paying attention) that he was dealing specifically with the audience he had (African-American) and how racism impacted them, there was no need to speak on all forms of racism and every way racism manifested for every ethnic group. There have been other sermons on that - and his focus was on the DAKES Study Bible which has been used throughout the Faith Movement and Pentecostal world and yet advocates for segregation....

That was the context - and unless one thinks tolerating segregation is a good demonstration of social reform, it would not be logical to act as if Price was off in tackling it as others have. But besides that, one has to actually hear ALL of Prices's sermons when it comes to racial reconcilliation and see the people he works with (both WHITE, Black, Hispanic, etc.) over the years to even begin making sweeping claims on everything he has done.

Context makes a world of difference.

if you think Blacks were treated unfairly try being Native American.

Pause - in light of where it seems rather clearly you're speaking before actually dealing with what is said - as I already have Native American in me (as my Grandmother was Black-Foot Indian) - so to try going there assuming someone speaking on where WOF Founders addressed racial concerns for Blacks is automatically unaware or disconnected from the struggles of other ethnic groups is beyond warranted....and no one is ignorant on the racial problems facing Native Americans, as I've spoken on often before when it comes to the plight of Native Americans (including African-American Indian). For some basic places:

• To my First Nations brothers and sisters

• 
  [*]Racism, Bigotry and the Like

• Eskimo Eradication: Why is the U.S aiding the destruction/starvation of the Inuit?

The same thing goes for Hispanic culture as well (which I've spoken on before being that I am also Afro-Latino from my mom's side and have witnessed racism in the Latino world) and a myriad of others...
- more shared here, including whites since my great-grandfather (on my mom's side) is White (as his father was Scotish ) and my Uncle is a Black Hispanic - and my closest friends are both black and white (more shared here, here, here and here).

IMHO it really does nothing with regards to OP in reacting claiming that speaking about racism toward Blacks (as other founders in WOF did) somehow means one doesn't speak on racism toward other groups.

The OP topic is WOF founders and the issues they spoke on which are prominent within WOF - stating why they shared them and what led them to do so. It is not a thread dedicated to discussing why others don't like Black people speaking on racism - or reacting with any argument claiming that to speak on it means others don't recognize where racism has not impacted other groups ...so please stay on topic if honoring the thread.

And again, it should be remembered that it's off when someone presumes to know what cultural back ground another has as if they do not relate to injustice.

This entire topic is ridiculous, by tossing the race card in it detracts from the point of the thread.or was race the point of the thread?
Do we need the advice of Al Sharpton to explain who Word of Faith founders are?

Seeing that the topic - per the OP - was on WOF Founders and the issues they spoke on, it is a bit ridiculous to speak PAST that (against the OP) because of what appears to be a problem with anyone talking on issues pertaining to racial reconcilliation.

Moreover, as the point of the thread was discussing others who were founders in the WOF world and seeing what they discussed, it's inconsequential for one to think race is somehow "throw in" when the truth of the matter was that it was never disconnected from the beginning. claiming - for what was noted was how Price contexualized the Faith Message for the Black Community & addressing the 19th century mindsets which Hagin wouldn't touch when it came to quoting from/advocating the Dake Bible (despite its advocacy for segregation of ethnic groups and promoting views of the time that demeaned Blacks)..and your response to my comment was "I do not see any color in teaching of God's Word". For it does not matter whether or not one sees color since the fact of the matter (in this thread, at least) is that the Word of God was not quiet about the subject - and Dr. Price was very focused on addressing the issue of racial inequalities as well as ignoring the specific struggles of differing ethnic groups instead of ignoring them as many did at the time with color-blind racism....something people in the secular world have also called out as well. For reference:

• I'm not Racist, I'm Colorblind! | SociologyInFocus

• Color Blindness, Political Correctness, or Racial Reconciliation: Christian Ethics and Race

• Colorblind Racism, Colorblind Theology And Church Practices
  [*]

• “Color-blinded-ness” is Racism - Red Letter Christians

And Color Blind: The Rise of Post-Racial Politics & The Retreat from Racial Equity - Tim Wise

With that all said, No offense - but the comments you offered thus far actually didn't deal with what WOF founders even said and thus it took away from the purposes of the thread, which others addressed earlier. Speaking on Al Sharpton - as if he is the symbol of anyone addressing racial issues - is a needless reaction and a rather pointless one since that same argument has been brought up if someone addresses any issue pertaining to racism (including Native Americans ). It is a bit odd if one assumes the only people dealing with issues pertaining to ethnic concerns is Sharpton - as that's far from what happens in the real world - but if that is what you're going to bring up since even others against his stances/policies still address the issue of racial reconcilliation/cultural differences and knowing how to handle that, it really doesn't deal with the topic or the subject and there's no need for it here.

And thus, I request you to please cease not dealing with the issue in the OP - for it seems (from your comments) that discussing anything pertaining to issues of culture/ethnic differences (even if someone says "I didn't like how I was mistreated when someone made this stereotype about me here" or "It really hurt me to see my friend mistreated because of his skin tone", etc.), IMHO, is something you don't like - but I could be off.

I will stand on Paul's teaching about the Body of Christ I posted already,for the rest it is a ugly straw man.

Avoiding racial issues is NOT what Paul was about - nor Christ or the other Apostles. For what the Apostles taught was that that, regardless of one's background, the Lord, "made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:9) - and the Lord evealed this to the church through Peter who said, "in truth I perceive that God shows no partiality." (Acts 10:34 & 1 Peter 1:17), while Paul taught the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles and said "for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Romans 1:16). The Lord also noted plainly that He would make disciples of all nations - out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation" (Revelation 5:9).

Also, the Apostles acknowledged the ways that prejudices against specific groups impacted ministry and took that into account. As noted best elsewhere (for an excerpt):

Paul’s letter to the Galatians, his first, was written during this time period, and meets the issue head-on. Paul, the Hebrew of Hebrews, had known from the day of his conversion that he was called to be the apostle to the Gentiles. Rather than studying theology under the tutelage of the apostles in Jerusalem, he developed his own in Arabia. We see Paul practicing this contextualized theology in the book of Acts. Examine the way in which he speaks in a Jewish synagogue in Acts 13:13-43 and you will see a Jew communicating to Jews in very Jewish ways and referring to Jewish sources. Look at his approach in Acts 17:22-34 and we see a Jew consciously changing the content and style of his message to fit this polytheistic Greek audience. Here Paul uses a pagan altar as a bridge to their understanding of the gospel! Now he quotes not from the Old Testament but from a Gentile poet with whom the audience was familiar. In fact, Paul and other New Testament writers did not hesitate to quote from pagan sources. “There are at least 133 references or quotations in the New Testament taken from Jewish and Greek nonbiblical literature” (Accad 1997:26).

Paul writes about the messenger of the gospel in I Cor. 9:19-23:

Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

​

Moreover, if going by the scriptures, Jesus himself dealt with racial issues when it came to the Syro-Phoenician Woman in Matthew 15
.

Nonetheless, with that said, please stay on topic if being in the thread - and please cease with the claims that the author of the OP is not focused on it. I know the context of the OP (as I made it) and the focus was and is on WOF Founders in what they said. If that is something you do not wish to really address, that is fine - but the place for going opposite of that is not within this thread.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We are going backwards,not ahead when we set ourselves apart from the Body of Christ.

As said in the OP, if being in the thread, simply making claims against something is NOT allowed - one has to give reference/evidence. Anyone can claim "You're against Christ" - but that doesn't deal with the Scriptures, nor is it any different whenever others had people say of any in the Faith Movement "You guys don't love Jesus" if they addressed an issue - as if throwing out an accusation substantiates anything...

As said before, speaking on the issue of racial reconcilliaiton in the same way the Apostles and CHRIST did is what the Body of Christ was also commissioned to do - and it's what also happens on the Mission field. Seen it, lived it and thankful for God's Work based in the Body of Christ.

Prices comment on whites being afraid of Blacks and his comment that whites,do not want blacks to have success because of Blacks having tremendous talent..
I am done if others want to build social barriers go right ahead.
Trying to justify a them against us point of view,is putting lipstick on a pig it is still ugly.

Context, as said before - seeing that Price was speaking on Whites who choose to NOT deal with history as the Scriptures revealed it when it comes to the African and Middle Eastern context of the scriptures and the ways the scriptures were used to oppress Blacks as it was for centuries. That is a historical fact that will never go away - and plenty of whites within the Faith Movement have long noted the same thing - thus, it is a reaction and not really showing where one actually dealt with what Price either said fully ....or what others in the Faith Movement have stated rather directly on the issue in agreement (regardless of ethnicity). Price was more than correct when speaking on whites who claimed Blacks were not prominent in the Bible and Jesus was automatically within the framework of a white individual.

And as Price already noted before, the history is rather plain when it comes to why it is important to address the subject and not run from it -
It wasn't that long ago when we not only had Jim Crow rampant - but men with burning crosses and claiming Christ doing mob killings in the name of Christ. In regards to the very real and present theological stances of the KKK and where they and other whites did lynchings after church services, it was tied deeply to not seeing blacks as equal to whites and believing God divinely established the system of white supremacy. Lynch advocates were quite often religious, specifically Christian. Moreover, their brand of faith placed whites at the top of a racial hierarchy with blacks at the bottom.
More has been discussed on the issue in the excellent work entitled The Color of Christ: The Son of God and the Saga of Race in America - Edward J. Blum, Paul Harvey - Google Books

The Color of Christ and the Politics of Race in Twentieth-Century America - YouTube.

The religious imagery and theology backing the KKK was not a small issue (more discussed in discussed here or here in Sunday Lynchings: The Church’s Role in Our Nation’s Legacy of Racism : Convergence Church Oakland: A church seeking and serving the greater area of Oakland, CA and Practicing What They Preach? Lynching and Religion in the American South, 1890 – 1929 in The Color of Christ: The Son of God & the Saga of Race in America - Edward J. Blum, Paul Harvey - Google Books and Book Review: The Cross and the Lynching Tree by James H. Cone | The Jesus Question other places). It is highly unfortunate to witness how between 1919 and 1939, according to Robert Moats Miller, white people in the United States “hung, shot, burned, gouged, flogged, drowned, impaled, dismembered, garroted, and blowtorched” to to death more than 500 black people in lynchings (from the The Protestant Churches and Lynching, 1919-1939, The Journal of Negro History, pp. 118-131)

​

And yet we do not assume that all Christians advocating such attrocities represented Christians all over the world of course. Those doing so (who were white) made false claims about Christ - and trying to ignore the damage that came from that and how often people did those things while simultnaeously claiming to stand on God's Word (as there were KKK Members who claimed to love the Bible and yet did not want Blacks to be successful or to think highly of being black) - that is a problem in the Body of Christ. As said before, I always trip out whenever people in the Charismatic and Pentecostal movement celebrate others who were seen as founders - and yet ignore where they had racism present and never acknowledged that God hated mistreatment of others on that basis. Charles Parham (who was the one giving Seymour his initial ministry opportunities) always comes to mind since WOF would not be here without his work - and yet it is unfortunate that the man was a member of the KKK. For references, one can go here or here:

• Charles F. Parham and His Role in the Development of the Pentecostal Movement: A Re-Evaluation.

• Across the Lines: Charles Parham?s Contribution to the Inter-Racial Character of Early Pentecostalism, by Eddie Hyatt : The Pneuma Review

Finnis Dakes was right in that camp - and that influenced the writing of the Dakes Bible, which again was born out of a racially limited mindset even though others (such as Hagin) sought to use it in the Faith movement - and people like Price called it out when seeing the history of things and going by what the Word said. We cannot ignore what occurred in the 19th century and acting as if it had no impact on the 20th century with theology and presentations - for it did - and with the KKK, it actually influenced many in the Body of Christ but was never called out.

So thus again, it is a false argument claiming "Us against Them" since both Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, Native Americans and many others have pointed out the reality of where White supremacy has caused a lot of problems - with that not representing all whites and it being pointless for anyone to react in doing that if the issue of racism comes up.

As far as Churches being involved in social issues? Fine just keep them out of the pulpit.

Not according to what Christ did and St.Paul in speaking on the issues of their day - from abuse of slaves/slavery to sexual immoraltiy and a number of issues. And some of this was dealt with before in older discussion - as said here:

Only God knows just how many of the American people are "true" Christians... Didn't God tell Abraham, he would not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for the sake of 10 righteous people..? and get this, Abraham was only "one" saint doing the asking..! He may have been the only righteous one also... Various polls are saying that the gay community in America, numbers around 2 to 4 percent of the entire population of our country... Do a google search and check it out... Look at how "they" have impacted our nation through politics, judges, schools, colleges, Hollywood, and yes..! even some of our clergy...

If the gay community can impact our nation with their "few," then we as Christians can also have even a bigger impact on our nation, with our "more" than just a "few"...

The Lord can work with others no matter how small they may be...and as it's HIS Power at work in us, that's what we need to focus on. The same thing happened biblically in scripture when seeing the ways Christ transformed entire communities by causing them to take action....... there are ways to change others that go beyond what politics often involve or say are the options for change (i.e. choose this cannidate, vote for this, etc).

IMHO, Paul had the same issue when it came to subversion. The early believers lived in an era where slavery was allowed in the Empire and often abusive...and Paul could have said that he didn't think slavery should exist. But he went for the heart of the issue by saying that both slaves/masters needed to learn to love one another and serve each other faithfully. Although he said a slave should seek his or her freedom if they had the chance (I Corinthians 7), he set it up to where believers could be subversive to the worldly systems of the day by living in such a way that people on the outside would marvel at how believers do things.....and thus, they'd effectively convict/change the hearts of others.

Some of it has a pragmatic aspect to it as well, seeing how you can't just write openly that you're against certain things since your mail/letters are investigated and inspected...and in many ways, if the empire supported/thrived on an industry you saw as corrupt, to speak against it could be deadly. Thus, wisdom would dictate to write in such a way as to get your message out without coming out too strongly on it so that people who understood you/had your heart would see where you're coming from.

What Paul did actively was a form of social resistance to bad authorities who advocated differently than what he believed...and that's similar to Christ. In a world dominated by Roman rule, Jesus proclaimed an alternative way to live. Instead of living in fear and trusting Rome for their daily bread, Jesus encouraged his followers to live into God’s reign on earth as it is in heaven and trust in God’s provision. He called those living in luxury at the expense of others to give it back to the poor. He encouraged his followers to expose Rome’s oppression through creative acts of nonviolent resistance (such as turning the other cheek or going the extra mile).... Some quotes from others in Church History, as it relates to how Christians conquered Rome through Acts of Love:

“The Brotherly love (of these Roman Christians) expressed itself, above all in the most self-sacrificing beneficence to the poor and sick, to widows and orphans, to strangers and prisoners. Their current phrase was: ‘in thy brother thou hast seen the Lord Himself.” (~Phillip Schaff, “History of the Christian Church Vol.II” ~ ..also inHISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH* & Full text of “The early Christians in Rome”).

“It is incredible to see the ardor with which the people of that religion help each other in their wants. They spare nothing. Their first legislator (i.e. Jesus) has to put it into their heads that they are all brethren.” (~Lucian–ardent persecutor of Christians)

“It is to our shame that we leave our own without support while the Galileans nourish not only their own but even our poor.” (~Julian the Apostate–a Persecutor of Christians..in Julian the Apostate, Against the Gallileans: remains of the 3 books …& History of the Christian Church, Volume III: Nicene and Post-Nicene …)

“It was the CHristians who rescued exposed babies from the garbage dumps, who welcomed the outcasts of society, who ministered to victims of sickness, even during times of plague that no one else would touch.” (~Spickard & Cragg, A Global History of Christians).

Change in unique ways...

There's nothing remotely in scripture on the subject saying believers should not be involved in Social issues since Paul already noted in Titus 3 that we should be ready for "EVERY good work" - specifically saying "to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone" (Titus 3)

But again, if actually dealing with the founders of WOF, one needs to stay on topic please and address them in what they said. William Seymour addressed the issues, Price did, Lester Sumrrall did as well..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I disagree,with Price in the videos you have provided, racism is not proprietary to Blacks,the Church is not a stage to present social issues.

Concerning WOF Founders/leaders, I'm very thankful for others speaking on it such as [URL="http://www.documentarytv.org/confessions-of-a-stiff-necked-godly-backslider-pastor-jack-hayford-video_3dbe3cfe1.html"]Jack Hayford (amazing man of God and one whom Paul and Jan Crouch, influential in spreading the message of the Faith Movement since many Word of Faith preachers broadcasted their services and campaigns via the largest Christian-based television network in the world and that network was owned by Faith adherents, Paul and Jan Crouch, who considered him to be their personal pastor ..and one who was instrumental in showing what it meant to walk by faith - especially in books I was blessed to read from him such as How to Live Through a Bad Day: Seven Powerful Insights From Christ's Words on the Cross and New Spirit-Filled Life Bible: ). He has spoken actively on the issue when it comes to how things developed[/URL] in the Faith Movement and larger Pentecostal movement when it comes to racism and indifference to the ways it impacts Black communities in specific ways - even noting it in his book Sharpening Your Leading Edge: Moving from Methods to Mindset

 

[Gxg (G²)]

At this point the only reference I used is the video of the (13) minute segment by Dr. Price on the three year study entitled "Racism in the pentecostal Church." That segment by itself was an enormous eye-opener. As Dr. Price went through the study... The majority of the knowledge in the report (if, not all) wasn't told to either of us. I would recommend all viewers to really read (not skim) through your posts in this thread (not just for WoF history), but be knowledgeable of the African American Christian impact on the early church in general. I can't think of a better place to start then right here. I would start with the same video segment of Dr. Price. A very, very informative (13) minutes as a starting foundation of the rest in your posts. This is found here.

​

A lot of things Price spoke on were echoed by several other leaders in the WOF World when I was growing up in it - and for where we were coming from, it was an elephant in the room I was glad to see addressed. But much of this goes directly back to how we understand the formations of things. For more, one can investigate The Black Roots and White Racism of Early Pentecostalism and The Spirit Poured Out on All Flesh: Pentecostalism and the Possiblity of Global Theology.

 

[victoryword]

Only white Christians?
What about Hispanic,have they offended you as well?

I tell all of you here your going down the wrong road with this.

These post are beginning to resemble what is being done in America today.

There is a deception against Blacks and Whites being manifested,violence is increasing,and the devil is in it all.

I am neither Black nor White or could I care less I am Christian,so when you cry about in justice think about what Christ had to endure for you after all they spit on him too and much more.

Normally I would not dignify this type of post with a response much less read it past the first sentence, but for the sake of clarification I will respond this once. First, no Hispanic person has ever called me the "N" word or attempted to make me feel that I was inferior to them due to the color of my skin. I have had that happen numerous times with whites in and outside of the church. My post, however, was not a blanket accusation on whites since I have numerous people who I count as dear friends who just happen to be white.

The point of my post to Gxg was to commend him for allowing himself to walk in love. Jesus has enabled us to forgive those who have demeaned us this way due to our skin color. You took this and TWISTED it into something unintended as seems to be the norm with your posting style.

Now I enjoy discussion but I really don't have time for ignorance. If you want to talk then stop being so combative. I you cannot then don't read anything I post.

 

[now faith]

The point of my post to Gxg was to commend him for allowing himself to walk in love. Jesus
Now I enjoy discussion but I really don't have time for ignorance. If you want to talk then stop being so combative. I you cannot then don't read anything I post.

Truthfully by letting everyone know you have been called the [N word by whites].

But you still have White friends,your Egocentrism is showing.

Why would I say such a thing?

Your ad hominem attacks on my intelligence shows your real intentions in posting.

So you don't have to worry about my ignorance nor bother to lower you standards by reading my comments.

This is the second time you have refered to me as ignorant,I am pointing this out to you in hopes that you will engage your cognitive thought process before you engage your ego.

 

[victoryword]

Gxg,

Thanks for your posts and the info. I apologize if I have allowed myself to get distracted into the usual immaturity, ignorance and foolishness that is sometimes displayed on the forums. Anyway, some very interesting stuff. Some of it I have been aware of but you have also given some new info. Thanks. Blessings to you.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Gxg,

Thanks for your posts and the info.....some very interesting stuff. Some of it I have been aware of but you have also given some new info. Thanks. Blessings to you.

Cool to know - although on the issue, I am curious as to what it was that you felt was new info to process through when contrasting with what you had already been aware of. Additionally, if there are any resources on the subject of the OP which you have not shared yet, would you mind either sharing them here or pointing me to them on PM, I would greatly appreciate it

I apologize if I have allowed myself to get distracted into the usual immaturity, ignorance and foolishness that is sometimes displayed on the forums.

It is not a problem if we fail since we always have moments we fail into wrong attitudes - even if we're seeking to address things which may seem off to us. Regardless of how something starts, what matters is how it finishes and I would pray that even in disagreement or misunderstanding (as was the case with the comment you said to me that was reacted to without understanding), there would be ability to not respond in actions that don't support Christ - and thus, the best thing would be to simply ignore it/not give any comments that would increase reacting.

Romans 12:17
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

1 Peter 4:9
Show hospitality to one another without grumbling.

James 5:9 ESV
Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

I would prefer you and now faith not get into any kind of intense debate if it cannot be done without going into the realm of fighting - as the OP, as you realize, is what is to be in focus and all that matters is the history.