Forgiveness revoked

[fhansen]

One can shipwreck their faith and turn away from the Lord toward apostasy, that doesn't mean God has revoked His forgiveness. That forgiveness is universal and for all by the death and resurrection of the Son of God who gave His life for all unconditionally. We apprehend that forgiveness through faith, given to us by God as pure gift through His Word and Sacraments; if we despise His gifts, reject His mercy, and go our own way then we cast ourselves away from Him; that doesn't mean God's forgiveness is conditional. In the parable of the Prodigal Son the good father at no point forsook his son, mercy and forgiveness were always there, boundlessly from the father's good and loving heart--it was not the father who abandoned his son, it was the son who abandoned his father--the son spent his time in the pig slop by his own volition, choosing to remain apart from the good and loving father.

So it is with our good and gracious God, there is no end or limit to His unyielding love and compassion which He has for us, He forgives not from anything worthy we have done, but by His own grace, on Christ's account alone which is for us as pure and unmerited gift. The only reason we are on the outside, with the pigs and the muck, is because we choose to be.

-CryptoLutheran

And yet this simply means that, while God's forgiveness may be universal, we may or may not care, we may or may not accept it, or after once accepting it, may reject it again.

 

[dreadnought]

Well they were Bible texts.. and you say you are Methodist ... so then you have your priorities of course... and you have free will to choose that.

I've read the Bible. As far as forgiveness goes, I believe the Lord forgives us when we repent of our sin.

 

[ViaCrucis]

And yet this simply means that, while God's forgiveness may be universal, we may or may not care, we may or may not accept it, or after once accepting it, may reject it again.

The Lutheran in me would quibble, but generally--yes. We are the sole architects of our own damnation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Noxot]

being in a spirit of unforgiveness means that you can't accept the spirit of Gods forgiveness because you reject God in favor of the evil spirits. when you are full of evil spirits your vision of God is very crude and you will perceive God in the same spirits that you believe is the right mode of being.

God can't forgive someone who rejects his spirit because forgiveness implies being with God in his kingdom/the Holy Spirit. and if we accept evil spirits God and his people don't like them because they are horrible and so you will live in hell with other ones of your ilk and you will see a shadow of God who will torment you because you reject the spirit of truth and goodness in favor of a spirit of falsity and evil.

God is the truth and that means when you reject him that you become what truth is not - a lie.

so salvation is a condition of being. what we are is what we are, plain and simple.

Spoiler: isa 55

Isa 55:1-3 (YLT)
Ho, every thirsty one, come ye to the waters, And he who hath no money, Come ye, buy and eat, yea, come, buy Without money and without price, wine and milk. Why do ye weigh money for that which is not bread? And your labour for that which is not for satiety? Hearken diligently unto me, and eat good, And your soul doth delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me, Hear, and your soul doth live, And I make for you a covenant age-during, The kind acts of David--that are stedfast.

Isa 55:4-7 (YLT)
Lo, a witness to peoples I have given him, A leader and commander to peoples. Lo, a nation thou knowest not, thou callest, And a nation who know thee not unto thee do run, For the sake of Jehovah thy God, And for the Holy One of Israel, Because He hath beautified thee. Seek ye Jehovah, while He is found, Call ye Him, while He is near, Forsake doth the wicked his way, And the man of iniquity his thoughts, And he returneth to Jehovah, and He pitieth him, And unto our God for He multiplieth to pardon.

Isa 55:8-11 (YLT)
For not My thoughts are your thoughts, Nor your ways My ways, --an affirmation of Jehovah, For high have the heavens been above the earth, So high have been My ways above your ways, And My thoughts above your thoughts. For, as come down doth the shower, And the snow from the heavens, And thither returneth not, But hath watered the earth, And hath caused it to yield, and to spring up, And hath given seed to the sower, and bread to the eater, So is My word that goeth out of My mouth, It turneth not back unto Me empty, But hath done that which I desired, And prosperously effected that for which I sent it.

Isa 55:12-13 (YLT)
For with joy ye go forth, And with peace ye are brought in, The mountains and the hills Break forth before you with singing, And all trees of the field clap the hand. Instead of the thorn come up doth fir, Instead of the brier come up doth myrtle, And it hath been to Jehovah for a name, For a sign age-during--it is not cut off!

 

[fhansen]

Matt 6:15 is perhaps even more clear:
"But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

 

[PaulCyp1]

This isn't about forgiveness revoked. It is about forgiveness rejected. Yes, if we repent and receive forgiveness, but then turn away, reject God's grace, and live a life even worse that that for which we were forgiven, we will pay the consequences.

 

[fhansen]

This isn't about forgiveness revoked. It is about forgiveness rejected. Yes, if we repent and receive forgiveness, but then turn away, reject God's grace, and live a life even worse that that for which we were forgiven, we will pay the consequences.

True enough. God's forgiveness is rendered inneffecive for me so to speak if I reject it.

 

[Jesus_is_our_Lord]

Methodist and Adventists and perhaps even some Catholics believe this Bible teaching about "forgiveness revoked" -- what do you think of it?


Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


1 Cor 9
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
...
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

In my church, I've been taught since I became a Christian, that "once saved, always saved". However, when I read the Bible myself, I find some passages that seem to indicate that this is not so and that God being sovereign can truly revoke your saved status before Him because of some grave acts you commit. So I'm not sure. I think that no matter where you stand in this matter dogmatically, from practical standpoint it's clear that every follower of Christ is called to always remain in the true faith and righteous walk.

 

[BobRyan]

Methodist and Adventists and perhaps even some Catholics believe this Bible teaching about "forgiveness revoked" -- what do you think of it?


Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


1 Cor 9
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
...
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

In my church, I've been taught since I became a Christian, that "once saved, always saved". However, when I read the Bible myself, I find some passages that seem to indicate that this is not so and that God being sovereign can truly revoke your saved status before Him because of some grave acts you commit.

This is precisely the problem that the "protesting Catholics" came across in the Protestant Reformation - and it is why the decided for 'sola scriptura' testing of all tradition, doctrine and practice.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

This isn't about forgiveness revoked. It is about forgiveness rejected.

The example Christ gives in Matthew 18 is not of the form 'the servant rejected the offer of forgiveness and insisted on continuing to pay back the full debt that he owed the king'.

Rather the teaching of Christ is based firmly on "having first experienced full pardon" and the fact that one who has already experienced it first hand - is then obligation to "go and do likewise" to his fellow servant.

The entire basis for the obligation to "go and do likewise" is that the servant had already experienced that forgiveness.

It is not of the form "And then the servant thought better of the debt forgiven and began to try and pay back the debt on his own".

What is more Christ said "So shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive others" He does not say "if you decide to start paying back your own debt of sin".

Those "details" in the text prevent all efforts to turn it on some other point.

Matt 6:15 is perhaps even more clear:
"But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

True - it refers to the "daily prayer" - the "Lords Prayer" in the daily life of the saints and points to that being revoked if at some point the one praying turns from the path of forgiving others.

 

[BobRyan]

being in a spirit of unforgiveness means that you can't accept the spirit of Gods forgiveness because you reject God in favor of the evil spirits.

We can imagine ways to have a Matthew 18 text read "the servant owed a great debt - insisted he could pay back his own debt, refused the king's offer to forgive the debt and in that same spirit also refused to forgive others their debt to him. The king then came to him and said - ' just as you never actually received forgiveness for your own debt - so you also chose not to forgive others their debt owed to you' "

We could certainly imagine such a parable conforming to the suggestion you have given in your post above.

That is why I think it is instructive to see the details in what we have in real life in the actual text... by comparison.

 

[BobRyan]

I've read the Bible. As far as forgiveness goes, I believe the Lord forgives us when we repent of our sin.

Indeed He does.

In the Matthew 18 case the servant is declared to have received full forgiveness. But the servant appears to "assume" that once received - there was no possibility of anything that he might do in the future having the bad result of that old forgiven debt returned to him.

So Christ concludes with "so shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive each one his brother from the heart"

No matter how well we behaved "yesterday" or the fullness of forgiveness received - if tomorrow we turn from that path and choose a spirit of unforgiveness toward others - Christ says "So shall My Father do to each one of you - if you do not ..."

But as you point out - even then.. should we "repent" and turn from that downward path of unforgiveness to others we may be forgiven.

Romans 11
“Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[dreadnought]

Indeed He does.

In the Matthew 18 case the servant is declared to have received full forgiveness. But the servant appears to "assume" that once received - there was no possibility of anything that he might do in the future having the bad result of that old forgiven debt returned to him.

So Christ concludes with "so shall My Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive each one his brother from the heart"

But it wouldn't matter, would it? As long as he refrains from sin, he'll do just fine. If he returns to sin, he'll have to deal with the consequences of those new sins.

 

[BobRyan]

But it wouldn't matter, would it? As long as he refrains from sin, he'll do just fine. If he returns to sin, he'll have to deal with the consequences of those new sins.

in the Matthew 18 parable is it not merely a matter of the "new sins" but the guilt and penalty of all the old sins are returned -- In hell the lost sinner will not pay for "the last two sins" but "all of them".

Ezek 18 makes the same point as Matthew 18 and says that all the good life lived before that last final fatal decision - is remembered no more ... they are as if they never knew God.

In Matthew 7 Christ says the judgment is of the form "depart from Me - I never knew you"

 

[dreadnought]

in the Matthew 18 parable is it not merely a matter of the "new sins" but the guilt and penalty of all the old sins are returned -- In hell the lost sinner will not pay for "the last two sins" but "all of them".

Ezek 18 makes the same point as Matthew 18 and says that all the good life lived before that last final fatal decision - is remembered no more ... they are as if they never knew God.

In Matthew 7 Christ says the judgment is of the form "depart from Me - I never knew you"

Either way you are going to suffer.

 

[JLB777]

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

But a key detail in the actual text (for those that doe things like read Bible texts as they come up in discussion ) is that Jesus turns to those listening and says "So will My Father do to each one of you if you do not ..." -- what was the "so shall" referring to in that case - because Jesus is then speaking to them - outside of the Parable.



Jesus Himself makes the application - it cannot be 'evil' to ask the question - "what application does the text say Jesus makes?". It is a very direct point of applying the lesson rather than first worrying about what traditions it might inconvenience before allowing ourselves to discuss it.

We all agree that salvation is by grace through faith - but that does not mean we "need" to ignore the teaching of Christ.. the details in the text.. as if to argue "His teaching is going to negate our interpretation of the Gospel so details must be avoided".

Well said Bob.

OSAS is heresy.

Matthew 18 alone proves this.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

In my church, I've been taught since I became a Christian, that "once saved, always saved". However, when I read the Bible myself, I find some passages that seem to indicate that this is not so and that God being sovereign can truly revoke your saved status before Him because of some grave acts you commit. So I'm not sure. I think that no matter where you stand in this matter dogmatically, from practical standpoint it's clear that every follower of Christ is called to always remain in the true faith and righteous walk.

Amen. Keep reading and believing the Bible.


JLB

 

[beautiful Angel]

Methodist and Adventists and perhaps even some Catholics believe this Bible teaching about "forgiveness revoked" -- what do you think of it?


Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


1 Cor 9
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
...
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

No. I do not believe this forgiveness revoked. Heavenly Father offers forgiveness to everyone that will honestly humbly receive it. He doesn't take it back. I believe those scriptures are being used out of contest and inaccurately.

 

[beautiful Angel]

Amen. Keep reading and believing the Bible.


JLB

You are wise to study to show your self approved. Only you can answer for what you believe. When you pass away and you have that come to Jesus meeting with the real deal we aren't going to be able to blame anything on anyone else

 

[BobRyan]

Methodist and Adventists and perhaps even some Catholics believe this Bible teaching about "forgiveness revoked" -- what do you think of it?


Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Christ said "so shall My Father will also do the SAME to you if each of you does not ..."

He says "will also do The SAME" -- shall we believe Him??

No. I do not believe this forgiveness revoked.

You have free will - and can reject whatever you prefer

Heavenly Father offers forgiveness to everyone that will honestly humbly receive it. He doesn't take it back.

And by contrast - Jesus said ...

", handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Each of us has free will - each must choose the one we will believe

You are wise to study to show your self approved.

Good advice. Scripture is better than preference