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Forgiveness revoked

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by BobRyan, Mar 23, 2018.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Methodist and Adventists and perhaps even some Catholics believe this Bible teaching about "forgiveness revoked" -- what do you think of it?


    Matt 18
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    Romans 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


    1 Cor 9

    18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
    ...
    26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.
     
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  2. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    You don't know what Methodists believe. Maybe a certain group on top believe something, but that doesn't mean the rest of us do. As for me, I've never heard of "forgiveness revoked."
     
  3. Unofficial Reverand Alex

    Unofficial Reverand Alex Let your deep desires heal the world's hungers Supporter

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    Falling from grace is a real thing. King Solomon comes to mind; the Bible describes his marriages with women from every nation he dealt with leading him away from God, and leading him to die with a hardened heart. Jesus & Paul mention all over the New Testament, and God sometimes mentions in the Old Testament, that we will be judged by our actions. (2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 16:27, Ephesians 6:8, Job 34:11, and elsewhere).

    Also good to keep in mind James 2:14-16:

    14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

    20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

    25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    1. You have heard of once saved always saved.
    2. You have heard of free will
    3. You have heard of losing one's salvation for turning to a life of sin
    4. And my assumption is that at least one or two Methodists have read Matthew 18
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    So then you would have no degree of heart burn at all - reading Matthew 18 and Romans 11 and accepting what it teaches...apparently.
     
  6. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    1. I have heard of once saved, always saved. John 3:16 teaches us that we are saved if we believe in Jesus. I would suggest being saved isn't the same as going to heaven.
    2. Yes, I have heard of free will.
    3. Yes, I have heard people say that one loses their salvation if they turn to sin. I would direct you to go back to my response for number 1.
    4. Yes, I have read Matthew 18 several times.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Then these texts are probably not giving you any heartburn.

     
  8. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

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    Actually, I didn't read them. I stopped after you told me what Methodists believe.
     
  9. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus is using a parable which is really an analogy about a spiritual truth but like all analogies it can be taken too far and the parable could be misused to support justification by works.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Well they were Bible texts.. and you say you are Methodist ... so then you have your priorities of course... and you have free will to choose that.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    And that would be a mistake. But a key detail in the actual text (for those that doe things like read Bible texts as they come up in discussion :) ) is that Jesus turns to those listening and says "So will My Father do to each one of you if you do not ..." -- what was the "so shall" referring to in that case - because Jesus is then speaking to them - outside of the Parable.
     
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  12. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm not sure what your point is. The Bible says alot of things, are we going to make this point the theological locus to get the camel's nose of legalism into the tent? I hope not.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Matt 18
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    But a key detail in the actual text (for those that doe things like read Bible texts as they come up in discussion :) ) is that Jesus turns to those listening and says "So will My Father do to each one of you if you do not ..." -- what was the "so shall" referring to in that case - because Jesus is then speaking to them - outside of the Parable.

    Jesus Himself makes the application - it cannot be 'evil' to ask the question - "what application does the text say Jesus makes?". It is a very direct point of applying the lesson rather than first worrying about what traditions it might inconvenience before allowing ourselves to discuss it.

    We all agree that salvation is by grace through faith - but that does not mean we "need" to ignore the teaching of Christ.. the details in the text.. as if to argue "His teaching is going to negate our interpretation of the Gospel so details must be avoided".
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    Given that we all agree "by grace are you saved through faith".. Eph

    Back to the Bible teaching about "forgiveness revoked" -- and the "Camel's nose" getting under a tent.

    What do the details indicate in these texts? Where is the author pointing the reader?


    Matt 18
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    Romans 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


    1 Cor 9

    18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
    ...
    26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.
     
  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, if we take Jesus literaly, it is possible to repay the debt even after being thrown in jail. This isn't analogous necessarily to losing ones salvation.

    I just see the parable in simpler terms, its about the value of forgiveness, by using a parable as an analogy.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    The first step is to admit that being put in jail to pay the debt is fully "forgiveness revoked" -- paying your own debt of sin -- what you claim the debt of sin is - might be the next topic.

    As for the wicked having "never paid their debt" -- That would be an interesting discussion - however that is irrelevant to the first point which is the whole topic of going from fully forgiven "all that debt" - to having to pay it yourself. which is by definition "forgiveness revoked"
     
  17. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I'm sure you know that historically the Christian Church has always taught that one can lose their place in the kingdom. And can also gain it back with genuine repentance, change of heart.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    True - loss of salvation and repentance to regain it.
     
  19. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    One can shipwreck their faith and turn away from the Lord toward apostasy, that doesn't mean God has revoked His forgiveness. That forgiveness is universal and for all by the death and resurrection of the Son of God who gave His life for all unconditionally. We apprehend that forgiveness through faith, given to us by God as pure gift through His Word and Sacraments; if we despise His gifts, reject His mercy, and go our own way then we cast ourselves away from Him; that doesn't mean God's forgiveness is conditional. In the parable of the Prodigal Son the good father at no point forsook his son, mercy and forgiveness were always there, boundlessly from the father's good and loving heart--it was not the father who abandoned his son, it was the son who abandoned his father--the son spent his time in the pig slop by his own volition, choosing to remain apart from the good and loving father.

    So it is with our good and gracious God, there is no end or limit to His unyielding love and compassion which He has for us, He forgives not from anything worthy we have done, but by His own grace, on Christ's account alone which is for us as pure and unmerited gift. The only reason we are on the outside, with the pigs and the muck, is because we choose to be.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  20. W2L

    W2L Well-Known Member

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    No matter how bad i screw up, i cannot cast off my hope in the Lord. I look forward to leaving this world and entering heaven above.
     
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