Forgiveness revoked

[GraceBro]

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


1 Cor 9
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
...
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”



Do you "see" the same details highlighted in red - that we see?



Do you see Matthew 18 as a forgiveness revoked teaching that was in place under the old covenant for saints "fully forgiven" but then experiencing "forgiveness revoked" after some future turning away from the right course of action?

"You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave"

Jesus says to them 'My Father will do the same to each of you IF you do not..."

Is this the way the pre-cross system worked according to your POV?

Yes, I can read. Nobody in the Old Covenant was "fully forgiven." They had a sacrificial system that would only cover (atone for) their sins temporarily until the next sacrifice was performed. The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin (Hebrews 10:4). Matthew 18 and the entirety of the Gospels is under the Old Covenant. Jesus amplified the conditional forgiveness of the Old Covenant in order to bury the people under the Law. He did this so they would realize the only way to enter the Kingdom of God is through the grace and mercy of God. But after His death on the cross, we have forgiveness as an inheritance and it is not based on any conditions we have to meet in the flesh. My forgiveness from God is no longer based on me having to forgive others. Under the New Covenant, after the Cross, I am forgiven of all my sins. I don't forgive others to be forgiven by God, I forgive others because I have already been forgiven by God. I believe Jesus when He said, "it is finished (John 19:30)." God is not judging me on the basis of sin and death but on the basis of a new life in Christ. God judged the world. The verdict was guilty. The penalty was death. Jesus took that penalty on my behalf. There is no sin left for Him to die for. Now, raised from the dead, He indwells me because of my faith in Him. Because of the cross there is no sin that will cause His life to leave me because of the eternal redemtion of the cross (Hebrews 9:12). That is why the life I have is an eternal life; one that will carry me through the rest of this life and on into eternity after I die. I am forgiven, in Christ. I am alive to God, in Christ. It is finished!

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit ..." 1 Peter 3:18

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross." Colossians 2:13-14

"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace ..." Ephesians 1:7

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." Ephesians 4:32

"... so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." Hebrews 9:28

"Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary." Hebrews 10:17-18

"I am writing to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name." 1 John 2:12

"Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself." Hebrews 7:27

"Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God ... " Hebrews 10:11-12

"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1 John 2:1-2

I am convinced that I am forgiven of my sins, past, present, and future and that God will not revoke His forgiveness from me. When I do sin, I don't perform a sacrifice that God won't accept and does not require of me, rather, I thank Him for the forgiveness He has already provided for me and then I "come boldly to the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16)" to obtain mercy and find grace in my time of need. If you disagree, then pray for me and I will pray for you. But, this will be my last post on the subject. Grace and Peace to you.

 

[Noxot]

True but that gets you back to the same "forgiveness revoked" problem when you say "once we stop"
You are admitting to the same thing in Matthew 6 as we see in Matthew 18. Continuing along just fine - until at some future point a failure shows up.

tbh I don't even know what you are trying to stand for. do you think forgiveness can be revoked or not? what is forgiveness?

for me salvation or forgiveness depends on our will/desire/consent for God to be able to save us and so forgiveness of ourselves in some way depends on us. if God forgives me but I don't forgive other people then i'm not made in Gods image and so there is a separation between me and God.

God is forgiveness and if I don't want him then I have nothing to do with him. so I would be left with the part of myself that is no longer wishing to be connected to God and therefore my relationship with God depends on both me and God.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Key question - Christ says "My Father will also do the same to IF..."

1. IF - what? IF you are not forgiven by God??
2. What is "the same"? -- removing your forgiveness?

and everything builds up on itself. understanding the bible is like the miracle of the breaking of bread and fish, it keeps multiplying

The farther from the text your POV requires that you go - the more it is clear that the text itself does not fit the narrative that you offer.

I thought it was obvious that forgiveness comes with a requirement. once we stop forgiving our debtors it appears that we don't have much of a right to demand forgiveness.

Matthew 6:12 ESV
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

True but that gets you back to the same "forgiveness revoked" problem when you say "once we stop"
You are admitting to the same thing in Matthew 6 as we see in Matthew 18. Continuing along just fine - until at some future point a failure shows up.

tbh I don't even know what you are trying to stand for. do you think forgiveness can be revoked or not?

Matthew 18
35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

What is "the same" that Jesus' teaching refers to?

Answer:
his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me..
moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed

what is forgiveness?

With a little effort it can be redefined to flatly contradict Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 on forgiveness revoked. Then all we would need to do - is ignore the details in the text.

God is forgiveness and if I don't want him then I have nothing to do with him. so I would be left with the part of myself that is no longer wishing to be connected to God and therefore my relationship with God depends on both me and God.

Making such a choice as you propose in that scenario -- appears to be similar to what that servant chose - and as Christ points out -- the same 'forgiveness revoked' result - would be applied

My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

No, I recognize those scriptures. I just seem them differently.

Do you "see" the same details highlighted in red - that we see?

the passage from Matthew is the Old Covenant; before the cross. .

Do you see Matthew 18 as a forgiveness revoked teaching that was in place under the old covenant for saints "fully forgiven" but then experiencing "forgiveness revoked" after some future turning away from the right course of action?

"You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave"

Jesus says to them 'My Father will do the same to each of you IF you do not..."

Is this the way the pre-cross system worked according to your POV?

Yes, I can read. Nobody in the Old Covenant was "fully forgiven."

Jesus said ""You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt"

You seem to argue this could not possibly be true... correct?

Because Jesus then adds

moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Matthew 18 and the entirety of the Gospels is under the Old Covenant. Jesus amplified the conditional forgiveness of the Old Covenant in order to bury the people under the Law.

So then you do agree that Jesus is pointing to the clear teaching of "forgiveness revoked" in Matthew 18 and showing how it worked. Only you argue that when Peter asks 'how many times shall my brother sin against me - and I be required to forgive him" that Jesus' answer was of the form "well whatever you do - don't think of this next illustration because this is just describing a hopeless scenario".. which oddly enough - (in your narrative) Christ forgets to mention.

In fact using your "not fully forgiven" argument -- Jesus forgets to add "so my father will NOT do to each one of you -- because in fact you have NOT been fully forgiven and so are NOT being asked to forgive others -- just as in fact you have NOT been forgiven"

Fortunately we have the opposite of that in Matthew 18 and in Matthew 17 se have Moses and Elijah - fully forgiven.. standing with Christ in glory... before the cross. And we have Jesus saying to the man who was lowered down through the roof "your sins are forgiven"

And you do agree that Matthew is writing about this years AFTER the cross.

And you do agree that in the end of Matthew's book he tells us the mission and directive he was given by Christ just before Christ left the Earth.

Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

So now here is Matthew - in chapter 18 -- carrying out that mission.

This is the easy part.

He did this so they would realize the only way to enter the Kingdom of God is through the grace and mercy of God. But after His death on the cross, we have forgiveness

So then in your view either Jesus was saying "this is an example of what you don't want"

Or else Matthew writing years after the cross meant to insert "here is a teaching we certainly would not want to promote now that the cross is in the past"

==========================

Not just Matthew writing after the cross--

But so also Paul.

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


1 Cor 9
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
...
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

 

[Noxot]

Matthew 18
35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

What is "the same" that Jesus' teaching refers to?

Answer:
his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me..
moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed

the same spirit.

Jas 2:13-20 (YLT)
for the judgment without kindness is to him not having done kindness, and exult doth kindness over judgment. What is the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him?

and if a brother or sister may be naked, and may be destitute of the daily food, and any one of you may say to them, `Depart ye in peace, be warmed, and be filled,' and may not give to them the things needful for the body, what is the profit?

so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.

But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith:

thou--thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder! And dost thou wish to know, O vain man, that the faith apart from the works is dead?

 

[dreadnought]

No they are not, that is for sure. I know our congregation is thinking of leaving the UM denomination because of it though. They are NOT politically correct. LOL How is yours doing? Any gay pastors? I don't know of any, except in other denominations like Presbyterian, and others. Of course, Catholics have many.

We have a lesbian bishop. We are about to have a new pastor - the majority of the pastors here in the California-Nevada Conference are politically correct, last I knew - I'm scared to death we're going to get one of those.

The problem with leaving the UM Church is that they own the building. Where are you going to meet?

 

[dreadnought]

Methodist have a published statement of beliefs? .. or each congregation makes up its own set of beliefs?

We have a Book of Discipline that might detail the beliefs of some of the leaders. But people believe what they believe. No one is going to stand at the pulpit and tell us what to believe. Does someone tell you what to believe?

 

[1stcenturylady]

We have a lesbian bishop. We are about to have a new pastor - the majority of the pastors here in the California-Nevada Conference are politically correct, last I knew - I'm scared to death we're going to get one of those.

The problem with leaving the UM Church is that they own the building. Where are you going to meet?

We are not in a good location in the first place. Good time to move.

 

[dreadnought]

We are not in a good location in the first place. Good time to move.

I wish the best for you.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I wish the best for you.

What are you going to do, personally.

 

[HatGuy]

We could certainly imagine a Matthew 18 scenario that fit the narrative you propose

"And so the servant was not forgiven and then having never been forgiven he refused to forgive others as well. His master then came to him and said ' oh now I see. You were never actually forgiven yourself so you had no basis to forgive others. Well that is pretty much what I would have expected given that you yourself never experienced forgiveness to start with"

It seems to me that the point of the original narrative is to show how the wicked servant despised the Master's forgiveness.

Now if you despise God's forgiveness then you obviously don't believe the gospel. You are still liable for your debt.

The point appears to be made to show Peter that if you cannot forgive others "seventy times seven" then you show by your actions that you despise God's forgiveness. You are not living in the Kingdom. You do not believe the gospel.

To stretch the parable to say that God revokes forgiveness for any number of things, and as a general principle, is taking it too far. At best you can only say that forgiveness is revoked for failing to forgive others. But you could not claim forgiveness is ever revoked for something other than that. You'd be creating a general principle when there is none , and going against many other scriptures.

 

[dreadnought]

What are you going to do, personally.

I don't know yet. Our current pastor is politically correct and we had several battles. I finally sent an email to him, and a carbon copy to the choir (we both sing in the choir), stating I was cutting my church giving in half until he agreed to abide by Leviticus 18:22. He never agreed (though he hasn't brought it up from the pulpit since), and I continue to give half.

 

[BobRyan]

It seems to me that the point of the original narrative is to show how the wicked servant despised the Master's forgiveness.

A point carefully deleted from the actual text?

Now if you despise God's forgiveness then you obviously don't believe the gospel. You are still liable for your debt.

In which case "I forgave you all that debt" would not even remotely apply

It could be re-imagined into 'I offered to forgive you all that debt"

But the text never argues that the "never actually forgiven... are obligated to forgive others"

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Key question - Christ says "My Father will also do the same to IF..."

1. IF - what? IF you are not forgiven by God??
2. What is "the same"? -- removing your forgiveness?

and everything builds up on itself. understanding the bible is like the miracle of the breaking of bread and fish, it keeps multiplying

The farther from the text your POV requires that you go - the more it is clear that the text itself does not fit the narrative that you offer.

I thought it was obvious that forgiveness comes with a requirement. once we stop forgiving our debtors it appears that we don't have much of a right to demand forgiveness.

Matthew 6:12 ESV
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

True but that gets you back to the same "forgiveness revoked" problem when you say "once we stop"
You are admitting to the same thing in Matthew 6 as we see in Matthew 18. Continuing along just fine - until at some future point a failure shows up.

tbh I don't even know what you are trying to stand for. do you think forgiveness can be revoked or not?

Matthew 18
35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

What is "the same" that Jesus' teaching refers to?

Answer:
his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me..
moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed

what is forgiveness?

With a little effort it can be redefined to flatly contradict Christ's teaching in Matthew 18 on forgiveness revoked. Then all we would need to do - is ignore the details in the text.

God is forgiveness and if I don't want him then I have nothing to do with him. so I would be left with the part of myself that is no longer wishing to be connected to God and therefore my relationship with God depends on both me and God.

Making such a choice as you propose in that scenario -- appears to be similar to what that servant chose - and as Christ points out -- the same 'forgiveness revoked' result - would be applied

My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

the same spirit.

As what?

This?

Answer:
his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me..
moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed

 

[BobRyan]

We have a Book of Discipline that might detail the beliefs of some of the leaders. But people believe what they believe. No one is going to stand at the pulpit and tell us what to believe. Does someone tell you what to believe?

No one tells me what to believe except the Holy Spirit - but the entire world church of SDAs send representatives to vote and approve any updates to the stated set of doctrines. Thus it is easy to tell what is - or is not official SDA doctrine voted on by the entire world church.

Thus "believe whatever you wish.. say whatever you wish.. and call it SDA" is not part of our denomination. A bit too helter-skelter for us.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I don't know yet. Our current pastor is politically correct and we had several battles. I finally sent an email to him, and a carbon copy to the choir (we both sing in the choir), stating I was cutting my church giving in half until he agreed to abide by Leviticus 18:22. He never agreed (though he hasn't brought it up from the pulpit since), and I continue to give half.

Our little UM is Spirit-filled. All the gifts of the Spirit. How about yours? Is this common? It is why I felt comfortable going there as I am too.

 

[HatGuy]

A point carefully deleted from the actual text?

In which case "I forgave you all that debt" would not even remotely apply

It could be re-imagined into 'I offered to forgive you all that debt"

But the text never argues that the "never actually forgiven... are obligated to forgive others"

Well, let's attempt to unpack this in asking you a question.

Jesus specifically says to Peter that we must forgive "seventy times seven", which culturally indicated that you never stop forgiving.

However, the king in this parable did stop forgiving, right?

If the king represents God in this parable, does this mean there is a limit to God's forgiveness? You seem to be arguing that the answer is 'yes'. But why would Jesus say, "You must never stop forgiving," and then tell a parable that shows that God does stop forgiving?

 

[BobRyan]

Well, let's attempt to unpack this in asking you a question.

Jesus specifically says to Peter that we must forgive "seventy times seven", which culturally indicated that you never stop forgiving.

However, the king in this parable did stop forgiving, right?

Not only did He stop forgiving - he went so far as to "revoke forgiveness" already given.

And then went farther than that "handed the servant over to the torturers".

(Of course the king had not been forgiven - anything at all)

Amazingly large warning against the idea of not forgiving others since we have been fully forgiven.

If the king represents God in this parable, does this mean there is a limit to God's forgiveness?

Jesus says - it means God will do exactly what was done to the servant in the parable.

You seem to be arguing that the answer is 'yes'. But why would Jesus say, "You must never stop forgiving," and then tell a parable that shows that God does stop forgiving?

Because the "God stops forgiving" aspect is the huge danger that the servant faces if he does not forgive (according to Christ Himself) -- and is the very part of the illustration Christ then applies explicitly to his fully forgiven followers.

No dire ending.. nothing to be warned about.

BTW God is not like the evil servant.
1. He has not been forgiven anything and never needed it.
2. He is the judge of all
3. He can toss people into hell.. and says he will do it.
4. He is the one that sets up the conditions for how things work

Very "unlike" the servant in that parable

 

[dreadnought]

No one tells me what to believe except the Holy Spirit - but the entire world church of SDAs send representatives to vote and approve any updates to the stated set of doctrines. Thus it is easy to tell what is - or is not official SDA doctrine voted on by the entire world church.

Thus "believe whatever you wish.. say whatever you wish.. and call it SDA" is not part of our denomination. A bit too helter-skelter for us.

I am pleased that no one tells you what to believe but the Holy Spirit.

 

[dreadnought]

Our little UM is Spirit-filled. All the gifts of the Spirit. How about yours? Is this common? It is why I felt comfortable going there as I am too.

Our church is filled with imperfect people. I try to obey the Lord and set an example for others. Sometimes I fail.