Forgiveness revoked

[BobRyan]

I believe those scriptures are being used out of contest and inaccurately.

But you do not post anything to show that your confidently held preference has a basis in fact in these texts being quoted verbatim



Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


1 Cor 9
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
...
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

The point remains.

 

[JLB777]

You are wise to study to show your self approved. Only you can answer for what you believe. When you pass away and you have that come to Jesus meeting with the real deal we aren't going to be able to blame anything on anyone else

Agreed.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You don't know what Methodists believe. Maybe a certain group on top believe something, but that doesn't mean the rest of us do. As for me, I've never heard of "forgiveness revoked."

Just curious seeing as you are a United Methodist and I was raised SDA, but now just started going to a UM church, are you saying most Methodists believe in OSAS? That is what Bob is getting at I think.

 

[dreadnought]

Just curious seeing as you are a United Methodist and I was raised SDA, but now just started going to a UM church, are you saying most Methodists believe in OSAS? That is what Bob is getting at I think.

My point is that different Methodists believe different things. A blanket statement that "Methodists believe this" or "Methodists believe that" is inaccurate.

 

[HatGuy]

If the loss of salvation is possible, it appears it is always due to apostasy (deliberately refusing to have faith in Jesus), not because of sin.

The parable in Matthew 18 has to do with forgiveness, a gospel theme. I'd say the point is to notice that the wicked servant never really accepted his forgiveness, but just sought to take advantage of the master's kindness.

 

[1stcenturylady]

My point is that different Methodists believe different things. A blanket statement that "Methodists believe this" or "Methodists believe that" is inaccurate.

Yes. There are some Methodists that are leaning toward a more politically correct theology.

 

[dreadnought]

Yes. There are some Methodists that are leaning toward a more politically correct theology.

I don't think the Methodists are the only ones guilty of that.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I don't think the Methodists are the only ones guilty of that.

No they are not, that is for sure. I know our congregation is thinking of leaving the UM denomination because of it though. They are NOT politically correct. LOL How is yours doing? Any gay pastors? I don't know of any, except in other denominations like Presbyterian, and others. Of course, Catholics have many.

 

[BobRyan]

My point is that different Methodists believe different things. A blanket statement that "Methodists believe this" or "Methodists believe that" is inaccurate.

Methodist have a published statement of beliefs? .. or each congregation makes up its own set of beliefs?

 

[BobRyan]

The parable in Matthew 18 has to do with forgiveness, a gospel theme. I'd say the point is to notice that the wicked servant never really accepted his forgiveness, but just sought to take advantage of the master's kindness.

We could certainly imagine a Matthew 18 scenario that fit the narrative you propose

"And so the servant was not forgiven and then having never been forgiven he refused to forgive others as well. His master then came to him and said ' oh now I see. You were never actually forgiven yourself so you had no basis to forgive others. Well that is pretty much what I would have expected given that you yourself never experienced forgiveness to start with"

 

[1stcenturylady]

Methodist have a published statement of beliefs? .. or each congregation makes up its own set of beliefs?

Bob, I'm curious. Have you ever heard of any SDA congregation speaking in tongues?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I'm curious. Have you ever heard of any SDA congregation speaking in tongues?

I have heard of incidents where SDAs claim to have either seen or experienced the real gift of tongue (real foreign language) and also the real gift of interpretation (suddenly understanding a language you never learned) ... but I have not heard of an SDA congregation practicing what amounts to the fake tongues phenomena that we see so common today. I also know of reports of a single person (an SDA) here or there that was claiming to have the modern-questionable form of it. Pretty rare but I have come across it.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I have heard of incidents where SDAs claim to have either seen or experienced the real gift of tongue (real foreign language) and also the real gift of interpretation (suddenly understanding a language you never learned) ... but I have not heard of an SDA congregation practicing what amounts to the fake tongues phenomena that we see so common today. I also know of reports of a single person (an SDA) here or there that was claiming to have the modern-questionable form of it. Pretty rare but I have come across it.

Thanks. What about receiving a word of wisdom, or word of knowledge, or prophecy? Has anyone heard God's voice in this way?

 

[Noxot]

We can imagine ways to have a Matthew 18 text read "the servant owed a great debt - insisted he could pay back his own debt, refused the king's offer to forgive the debt and in that same spirit also refused to forgive others their debt to him. The king then came to him and said - ' just as you never actually received forgiveness for your own debt - so you also chose not to forgive others their debt owed to you' "

We could certainly imagine such a parable conforming to the suggestion you have given in your post above.

That is why I think it is instructive to see the details in what we have in real life in the actual text... by comparison.

and everything builds up on itself. understanding the bible is like the miracle of the breaking of bread and fish, it keeps multiplying and things both new and old come out of it.

I thought it was obvious that forgiveness comes with a requirement. once we stop forgiving our debtors it appears that we don't have much of a right to demand forgiveness.

Matthew 6:12 ESV
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

there are so many verses that speak of the process and requirements for forgiveness which I have already said is a spirit aka our spirit being conformed to the Holy Spirit, which is the reign of God that the entire chapter of matt 18 is talking about.

money and debt have a lot in common.

Spoiler: Acts 8:18-23

Acts 8:18-23 (YLT)
And Simon, having beheld that through the laying on of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Spirit is given, brought before them money, saying, `Give also to me this authority, that on whomsoever I may lay the hands, he may receive the Holy Spirit.'

And Peter said unto him, `Thy silver with thee--may it be to destruction! because the gift of God thou didst think to possess through money; thou hast neither part nor lot in this thing, for thy heart is not right before God; reform, therefore, from this thy wickedness, and beseech God, if then the purpose of thy heart may be forgiven thee, for in the gall of bitterness, and bond of unrighteousness, I perceive thee being.'

here is some context which would help us to understand the parable in the second half of the chapter. please remember that Jesus is describing what the reign of God is like, he is literally describing spiritual reality.

Spoiler: matt 18:1-22

Matt 18:1-22 (YLT)
At that hour came the disciples near to Jesus, saying, `Who, now, is greater in the reign of the heavens?' And Jesus having called near a child, did set him in the midst of them, and said, `Verily I say to you, if ye may not be turned and become as the children, ye may not enter into the reign of the heavens;

whoever then may humble himself as this child, he is the greater in the reign of the heavens. `And he who may receive one such child in my name, doth receive me, and whoever may cause to stumble one of those little ones who are believing in me, it is better for him that a weighty millstone may be hanged upon his neck, and he may be sunk in the depth of the sea.

`Woe to the world from the stumbling-blocks! for there is a necessity for the stumbling-blocks to come, but woe to that man through whom the stumbling-block doth come!

`And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during. `And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.

`Beware! --ye may not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their messengers in the heavens do always behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens, for the Son of Man did come to save the lost.

`What think ye? if a man may have an hundred sheep, and there may go astray one of them, doth he not--having left the ninety-nine, having gone on the mountains--seek that which is gone astray? and if it may come to pass that he doth find it, verily I say to you, that he doth rejoice over it more than over the ninety-nine that have not gone astray; so it is not will in presence of your Father who is in the heavens, that one of these little ones may perish.

`And if thy brother may sin against thee, go and show him his fault between thee and him alone, if he may hear thee, thou didst gain thy brother; and if he may not hear, take with thee yet one or two, that by the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may stand. `And if he may not hear them, say it to the assembly, and if also the assembly he may not hear, let him be to thee as the heathen man and the tax-gatherer.

`Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens. `Again, I say to you, that, if two of you may agree on the earth concerning anything, whatever they may ask--it shall be done to them from my Father who is in the heavens, for where there are two or three gathered together--to my name, there am I in the midst of them.'

Then Peter having come near to him, said, `Sir, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him--till seven times?' Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.

then after he said all that the rest of the chapter was the parable we are concerned with. notice at the end how he mentions "heart" which is another way of saying "spirit".

Spoiler: matt 18:23-35

Matt 18:23-35 (YLT)
`Because of this was the reign of the heavens likened to a man, a king, who did will to take reckoning with his servants, and he having begun to take account, there was brought near to him one debtor of a myriad of talents, and he having nothing to pay, his lord did command him to be sold, and his wife, and the children, and all, whatever he had, and payment to be made.

The servant then, having fallen down, was bowing to him, saying, Sir, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all; and the lord of that servant having been moved with compassion did release him, and the debt he forgave him.

`And, that servant having come forth, found one of his fellow-servants who was owing him an hundred denaries, and having laid hold, he took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that which thou owest. His fellow-servant then, having fallen down at his feet, was calling on him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all;

and he would not, but having gone away, he cast him into prison, till he might pay that which was owing. `And his fellow-servants having seen the things that were done, were grieved exceedingly, and having come, shewed fully to their lord all the things that were done; then having called him,

his lord saith to him, Evil servant! all that debt I did forgive thee, seeing thou didst call upon me, did it not behove also thee to have dealt kindly with thy fellow-servant, as I also dealt kindly with thee? `And having been wroth, his lord delivered him to the inquisitors, till he might pay all that was owing to him;

so also my heavenly Father will do to you, if ye may not forgive each one his brother from your hearts their trespasses.'

and we have to keep in mind the other verses in the bible to get a total context of the spirit that God is. for instance micah and daniel shows the process of how forgiveness works and the effects of both when we rebel and when we stop rebelling and are forgiven, which is something repeated in the bible so much that it would seem obvious as to what is salvation and what is condemnation.

Mic 7:18-20 (YLT)
Who is a God like Thee? taking away iniquity, And passing by the transgression of the remnant of His inheritance, He hath not retained for ever His anger, Because He--He delighteth in kindness. He doth turn back, He pitieth us, He doth subdue our iniquities, And Thou castest into the depths of the sea all their sins. Thou givest truth to Jacob, kindness to Abraham, That thou hast sworn to our fathers, from the days of antiquity!

Spoiler: Dan 9:9-23

Dan 9:9-23 (YLT)
`To the Lord our God are the mercies and the forgivenesses, for we have rebelled against Him, and have not hearkened to the voice of Jehovah our God, to walk in His laws, that He hath set before us by the hand of His servants the prophets; and all Israel have transgressed Thy law, to turn aside so as not to hearken to Thy voice; and poured on us is the execration, and the oath, that is written in the law of Moses, servant of God, because we have sinned against Him.

`And He confirmeth His words that He hath spoken against us, and against our judges who have judged us, to bring in upon us great evil, in that it hath not been done under the whole heavens as it hath been done in Jerusalem, as it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil hath come upon us, and we have not appeased the face of Jehovah our God to turn back from our iniquities, and to act wisely in Thy truth.

And Jehovah doth watch for the evil, and bringeth it upon us, for righteous is Jehovah our God concerning all His works that He hath done, and we have not hearkened to His voice. And now, O Lord our God, who hast brought forth Thy people from the land of Egypt by a strong hand, and dost make for Thee a name as at this day, we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

`O Lord, according to all Thy righteous acts, let turn back, I pray Thee, Thine anger and Thy fury from Thy city Jerusalem, Thy holy mount, for by our sins, and by the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Thy people are for a reproach to all our neighbours;

and now, hearken, O our God, unto the prayer of Thy servant, and unto his supplication, and cause Thy face to shine on Thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. `Incline, O my God, Thine ear, and hear, open Thine eyes and see our desolations, and the city on which Thy name is called; for not for our righteous acts are we causing our supplications to fall before Thee, but for Thy mercies that are many.

O lord, hear, O Lord, forgive; O Lord, attend and do; do not delay, for Thine own sake, O my God, for Thy name is called on Thy city, and on Thy people.' And while I am speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin, and the sin of my people Israel, and causing my supplication to fall before Jehovah my God, for the holy mount of my God,

yea, while I am speaking in prayer, then that one Gabriel, whom I had seen in vision at the commencement, being caused to fly swiftly, is coming unto me at the time of the evening present. And he giveth understanding, and speaketh with me, and saith, `O Daniel, now I have come forth to cause thee to consider understanding wisely; at the commencement of thy supplications hath the word come forth, and I have come to declare it , for thou art greatly desired, and understand thou concerning the matter, and consider concerning the appearance.

the effects of having your conversation in heaven is that angels become your neighbors and thus also they get offended when you are forgiven and then you act in the exact opposite manner, which is why they tell the Lord in the parable about the evil servants behavior. also Jesus made mention that mistreating his children offends his angels who are set over them.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Key question - Christ says "My Father will also do the same to IF..."

1. IF - what? IF you are not forgiven by God??
2. What is "the same"? -- removing your forgiveness?

and everything builds up on itself. understanding the bible is like the miracle of the breaking of bread and fish, it keeps multiplying

The farther from the text your POV requires that you go - the more it is clear that the text itself does not fit the narrative that you offer.

I thought it was obvious that forgiveness comes with a requirement. once we stop forgiving our debtors it appears that we don't have much of a right to demand forgiveness.

Matthew 6:12 ESV
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

True but that gets you back to the same "forgiveness revoked" problem when you say "once we stop"
You are admitting to the same thing in Matthew 6 as we see in Matthew 18. Continuing along just fine - until at some future point a failure shows up.

 

[GraceBro]

Methodist and Adventists and perhaps even some Catholics believe this Bible teaching about "forgiveness revoked" -- what do you think of it?

The only way to have "forgiveness revoked" would mean that God is still holding our sins against us. And the scripture is clear that "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them (2 Corinthians 5:19)." Therefore, if He is not counting our sins against us, there is no sin that would cause Him to "revoke" forgiveness." If sin was still an issue it means that the death of Jesus Christ was insufficient and we don't want to go down that road.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks. What about receiving a word of wisdom, or word of knowledge, or prophecy? Has anyone heard God's voice in this way?

Are you asking if Adventists ever heard of Ellen White, of William Foy, Hazen Foss, Loughborough ...?

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


1 Cor 9
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
...
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

The only way to have "forgiveness revoked" would mean that God is still holding our sins against us. And the scripture is clear that "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them (2 Corinthians 5:19)." Therefore, if He is not counting our sins against us, there is no sin that would cause Him to "revoke" forgiveness." .

You argue as if "a point of law" would prohibit the scriptures above - from existing. In fact it is the inference you are pouring into 'Not counting people's sins against them" that presents the only contradiction to the texts quoted above.

 

[GraceBro]

You argue as if "a point of law" would prohibit the scriptures above - from existing. In fact it is the inference you are pouring into 'Not counting people's sins against them" that presents the only contradiction to the texts quoted above.

No, I recognize those scriptures. I just seem them differently. I believe the passages from Romans and 1 Corinthians are referring to salvation and the passage from Matthew is the Old Covenant; before the cross. Regardless, one still has to address the passage I posted as well as many others. Is God counting our sins or not? I say He is not.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


1 Cor 9
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
...
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached the gospel to others, I myself should become disqualified from it.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

No, I recognize those scriptures. I just seem them differently.

Do you "see" the same details highlighted in red - that we see?

the passage from Matthew is the Old Covenant; before the cross. .

Do you see Matthew 18 as a forgiveness revoked teaching that was in place under the old covenant for saints "fully forgiven" but then experiencing "forgiveness revoked" after some future turning away from the right course of action?

"You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave"

Jesus says to them 'My Father will do the same to each of you IF you do not..."

Is this the way the pre-cross system worked according to your POV?