Foreknown

[FutureAndAHope]

There are many opinions on the foreknowledge of God. I will list the ones I know, if you know of others let me know. After reading this cast your vote.


God does not know the future, due to free will in man, but He can control it.

This idea is supported by scriptures like:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."


This scripture shows that God was taken aback by how evil man was, and He wished He had not created man. This would suggest that God does not foreknow the future in the sense of knowing all that will happen. Although God may be a planner. It may seem hard to imagine the world having free choice and God being able to know the future, but I am a computer programmer by trade and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation or game, the computer can essentially know within a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, which simplifies computation. For God to know every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories.



God has given man free will, to choose salvation, but even within that framework knows the future

This is an idea that although man has genuine free will God can still know the future. This idea on the surface seems to be supported by people like Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies he clearly states that man has free will, yet also mentions God foreknowing the future. How this would work is beyond human reasoning. Maybe the idea of a time travelling element to God, that to God creation has ended, the judgment has come, but He can travel back through time, and inject His foreknowledge.


Man given Freewill

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Foreknowledge

Book IV.

…Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”


Chap. XXIX. — Refutation of the Arguments of the Marcionites, Who Attempted to Show That God Was the Author of Sin, Because He Blinded Pharaoh and His Servants.

2. If, therefore, in the present time also, God, knowing the number of those who will not believe, since He foreknows all things, has given them over to unbelief, and turned away His face from men of this stamp, leaving them in the darkness which they have themselves chosen for themselves


Note the second quote may not be a solid supporter of the view Iranaeus believed in a kind of foreknowledge because it says “If, therefore, in the present time also”, which may suggest God is looking at the hearts of present-day men, and knows which ones will not be saved due to the state of their heart. He “foreknows” how they will turn out, hence He knows the number.



God knows the future because He “fully controls it”, man has no control over salvation

This is an idea that God knows the future because He has essentially written a story that creation follows. In this scenario man has no control over salvation, only those God has foreplanned can be saved.

 

[bling]

Lots of things are predestined by God since that is what He will do and sometimes when He will do it.

If God’s omnipresence includes not only man’s present time, but also man’s past and man’s future time, then God is outside of time.

God expressing himself anthropomorphically to humans, since God would use our understanding of time in communicating with us. We know the results of God’s miracles but not how the miracle was done. God would not have to talk about the relativity of time or his existence outside of our time and would keep it simple and with excellent communication, talk about time from a human perspective. Time in heaven might also have their own time separate from man’s time.

If you know today historically a free will choice, I made yesterday, that choice cannot be changed, since history cannot be changed even by God (it happened). The fact you historically know a free will choice does not mean it was not a free will choice.

If God is outside of human time then God at the end of time knows perfectly historically (history cannot be changed) every autonomous free will choice man and/or satan made at any and all times. God at the end of time would be able to send that information to Himself at the beginning of time before there was a known universe.

If God at the end of time knows what Adam and Eve did in the Garden, He can provide that to Himself before Adam and Eve were created, so God knows exactly what Adam and Eve are “going to do”, since they have “already done it” (God is in both places at the same “human” time).

It is difficult to think about what it is like to be outside of time and existing throughout time.

My theory would have this:

• God perfectly knows all human future from some beginning point or before time began.
• God knows all possible scenarios for the future that would result from His actions and man’s autonomous free will choices.
• God has predestined in detail most of what man will experience, but this predestined set up scenario by God is to assure every mature adult has a truly independent autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His pure charity as charity, which is the individual’s choice.
• God predestining the scenarios of man to make this free will choice would be limited to the point an individual could still chose to accept and not harden his/her heart to the point there is nothing more God could do to help that individual.
• God knows perfectly from the beginning of time what choice every mature adult or spiritual being made throughout history from God’s presence throughout time, but God did not make the choice for the person or spiritual being.
• God predestined “before” anything was decided to be made that those humans who accepted His charity He would save.

Issues:

• There is no scripture suggesting: God choice of a person’s life scenarios is the determining factor in who is saved and lost.
• There is nothing that proves God exists today in the future, past and present (that God is not limited by time).
• The idea of God setting up very specific scenarios so each mature adult will only choose one predetermined choice to accept or reject God’s charity, means the choice is not a free will choice made by the individual, but only gives the appearance of being a free will choice since due to the scenario God setup the person cannot chose to do something other than what God has set him up to choose. The deciding factor on the choice is God’s chosen scenario and not man’s free will choice, so that is not a free will choice .
• God setting up scenarios for each mature adult to accept or reject His charity in the form of forgiveness, allows the person to truly have a Godly type Love since we are taught by Christ: “… he that is forgiven much Loves much…” So being forgiven (which includes accepting that forgiveness) of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically result in an unbelievable huge Love. The person has to make a truly free will choice to humbly accept God’s forgiveness and that will allow the Love to be truly his Love which will result in him Loving God.
• With other theories, God chose not to set it up for all humans to choose to accept His charity and be saved, so those lost would be God’s fault. This is not like God and Christ at all.
• While under my theory; God is doing (setting it up) to provide the very best opportunity for each lost mature adult to be saved if they are willing. The person who rejects God’s charity is not wanting Godly type love and does not like Godly type Love, so they would be unhappy in heaven where there is only Godly type Love. God wants them to go to heaven, but not if it will make them unhappy, so He allows them to choose, but it is not in the form of choosing between heaven and hell, but between His Love (charity) or not His Love (Not charity).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Lots of things are predestined by God since that is what He will do and sometimes when He will do it.

If God’s omnipresence includes not only man’s present time, but also man’s past and man’s future time, then God is outside of time.

God expressing himself anthropomorphically to humans, since God would use our understanding of time in communicating with us. We know the results of God’s miracles but not how the miracle was done. God would not have to talk about the relativity of time or his existence outside of our time and would keep it simple and with excellent communication, talk about time from a human perspective. Time in heaven might also have their own time separate from man’s time.

If you know today historically a free will choice, I made yesterday, that choice cannot be changed, since history cannot be changed even by God (it happened). The fact you historically know a free will choice does not mean it was not a free will choice.

If God is outside of human time then God at the end of time knows perfectly historically (history cannot be changed) every autonomous free will choice man and/or satan made at any and all times. God at the end of time would be able to send that information to Himself at the beginning of time before there was a known universe.

If God at the end of time knows what Adam and Eve did in the Garden, He can provide that to Himself before Adam and Eve were created, so God knows exactly what Adam and Eve are “going to do”, since they have “already done it” (God is in both places at the same “human” time).

It is difficult to think about what it is like to be outside of time and existing throughout time.

My theory would have this:

• God perfectly knows all human future from some beginning point or before time began.
• God knows all possible scenarios for the future that would result from His actions and man’s autonomous free will choices.
• God has predestined in detail most of what man will experience, but this predestined set up scenario by God is to assure every mature adult has a truly independent autonomous free will choice to accept or reject His pure charity as charity, which is the individual’s choice.
• God predestining the scenarios of man to make this free will choice would be limited to the point an individual could still chose to accept and not harden his/her heart to the point there is nothing more God could do to help that individual.
• God knows perfectly from the beginning of time what choice every mature adult or spiritual being made throughout history from God’s presence throughout time, but God did not make the choice for the person or spiritual being.
• God predestined “before” anything was decided to be made that those humans who accepted His charity He would save.

Issues:

• There is no scripture suggesting: God choice of a person’s life scenarios is the determining factor in who is saved and lost.
• There is nothing that proves God exists today in the future, past and present (that God is not limited by time).
• The idea of God setting up very specific scenarios so each mature adult will only choose one predetermined choice to accept or reject God’s charity, means the choice is not a free will choice made by the individual, but only gives the appearance of being a free will choice since due to the scenario God setup the person cannot chose to do something other than what God has set him up to choose. The deciding factor on the choice is God’s chosen scenario and not man’s free will choice, so that is not a free will choice .
• God setting up scenarios for each mature adult to accept or reject His charity in the form of forgiveness, allows the person to truly have a Godly type Love since we are taught by Christ: “… he that is forgiven much Loves much…” So being forgiven (which includes accepting that forgiveness) of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically result in an unbelievable huge Love. The person has to make a truly free will choice to humbly accept God’s forgiveness and that will allow the Love to be truly his Love which will result in him Loving God.
• With other theories, God chose not to set it up for all humans to choose to accept His charity and be saved, so those lost would be God’s fault. This is not like God and Christ at all.
• While under my theory; God is doing (setting it up) to provide the very best opportunity for each lost mature adult to be saved if they are willing. The person who rejects God’s charity is not wanting Godly type love and does not like Godly type Love, so they would be unhappy in heaven where there is only Godly type Love. God wants them to go to heaven, but not if it will make them unhappy, so He allows them to choose, but it is not in the form of choosing between heaven and hell, but between His Love (charity) or not His Love (Not charity).

Thanks for your reply, interesting read.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I have been giving this a little thought. I now think that 1. God does not know the future, due to free will in man, but He can control it. is the most likely scenario. I say this due to the following scriptures:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

Gen 18:20-21 And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

When forming a doctrine we need firstly to look to scripture. The above two scriptures show God does not have foreknowledge in the sense of knowing the future.

The first scripture shows God was sorry for making man, due to how man turned out. This deflates argument 3) God knows the future because He “fully controls it”, man has no control over salvation if God controlled everything He would not be surprised at the level of man's sins, He would know it already, for He planned it.

The Second scripture fights the idea that God 2) God has given man free will, to choose salvation, but even within that framework knows the future because God did not "know" how bad Sodom was, He needed to go down and look. If He was all-powerful, in terms of foreknowledge the trip was redundant, for He would have already known.

As for how God has foreknowledge, i.e. can prophecy future events, He writes man's stories, allowing for free will. As God is not the author of sin, so does not write in sins, but writes in such a way that He can work even man's sins around for good. This story is not linear but has some things that are fixed. As I stated:

It may seem hard to imagine the world having free choice and God being able to know the future, but I am a computer programmer by trade and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation or game, the computer can essentially know within a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, which simplifies computation. For God to know every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories.

 

[Josheb]

Very poor options. So poor I judge the poll fatally flawed, and either egregiously biased or severely lacking in all the doctrinal possibilities. For example, where is the option asserting God's eternal existence outside of time and space and humanity's solely internal existence inside creation? (time and space are created components of creation) Discussion of divine knowledge and foreknowledge ignoring the eternal and limiting options solely to the temporal is inherently flawed from the outset.

 

[bling]

Very poor options. So poor I judge the poll fatally flawed, and either egregiously biased or severely lacking in all the doctrinal possibilities. For example, where is the option asserting God's eternal existence outside of time and space and humanity's solely internal existence inside creation? (time and space are created components of creation) Discussion of divine knowledge and foreknowledge ignoring the eternal and limiting options solely to the temporal is inherently flawed from the outset.

Good, but look at my post 2.

 

[Josheb]

Good, but look at my post 2.

I've bookmarked this and will peruse it when I have time. The op, however, is incomplete and, like an engine missing its manifold or camshaft, therefore incorrect.