For Catholics - Who Is Saved?

[MamaZ]

what happens to those who have been in the CC but now do not believe it to be the only true church and have since moved to a different church?

 

[Rhamiel]

what happens to those who have been in the CC but now do not believe it to be the only true church and have since moved to a different church?

I do not know, it is not my place to judge
as mentioned before, and in other places, ignorance can lessen the penalty of sin, it is still sin, but since God judges the heart, the culpability might be lessened

 

[alphonsus12]

Thanks Sphinx777 for posting the relevant sections which I had failed to find. Based on reading this, I conclude that ignorance is probably bliss because those who are ignorant stand a much higher probability of attaining salvation than Protestants who, not being ignorant of the Catholic Church, cannot attain salvation.

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

I apologize in advance because this is going to be long, but that is just because I am going to be as exhaustive as possible to ensure that there is little to no confusion.

It seems we are communicating on different wavelengths, let me see if I can make this clearer; but first it is important to note that the Catechism is only a collection of Church teachings on various subjects, and it is not to be considered Scripture. It is not the final authority, and it is not universally exhaustive. The Church has more to say outside the Catechism however hard that is to believe seeing as it is a huge book . Therefore, I will be citing other areas of Church teaching as well.

In CCC 838 it says:
Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

So that means that all baptized Christians can be saved, as the Catholic Church considers them to be in some form of Communion with the Church. But what about unbaptized Christians? We will go to the section on of the Catechism dealing with Baptism.

In section on Baptism is quite extensive, however, in 1271 there is a quote stating
"it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." This is a quote from Vatican II's decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, so that is where we will go next.

At several points in this document non-Catholic Christians, are referred to as "separated brethren," recognizing them as our brothers and sisters in Christ. Further there is this paragraph:

"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."

The Holy Spirit has used non-Catholic Churches and communities as a means of salvation, meaning that people who belong to these organization have been saved! However what about the quote that you singled out?

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Lets break this down. The most important word in this selection I have bolded. So it is only if one knows that the Catholic Church was founded by God, and still refuse to follow Her teachings that they will not be saved. This does not mean that if they know that the Catholic Church teaches this doctrine they will not be saved, but rather they truly know (meaning they accept and believe) that Christ founded the Church and they know (again meaning they accept and believe believe) that what the Church teaches is true, but still reject the Catholic Church then they are not saved.

I know that last paragraph is a little convoluted, so if you need clarification, I would be more than happy to oblige!
Pax

 

[alphonsus12]

what happens to those who have been in the CC but now do not believe it to be the only true church and have since moved to a different church?

God is kind and merciful, and He judges on intent. I have known several Catholics, both lapsed and faithful who left the Church for genuine, and they are all wonderful Christians, and from what I know of them I would be surprised if they did not make it to heaven.

 

[MamaZ]

God is kind and merciful, and He judges on intent. I have known several Catholics, both lapsed and faithful who left the Church for genuine, and they are all wonderful Christians, and from what I know of them I would be surprised if they did not make it to heaven.

Well if one makes it to heaven it is not because of the church they attend but because of Christ, For when one is in Christ they are His body.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I apologize in advance because this is going to be long, but that is just because I am going to be as exhaustive as possible to ensure that there is little to no confusion.

I greatly appreciate the time and effort you have provided in order to help clarify the situation.

It seems we are communicating on different wavelengths, let me see if I can make this clearer; but first it is important to note that the Catechism is only a collection of Church teachings on various subjects, and it is not to be considered Scripture. It is not the final authority, and it is not universally exhaustive. The Church has more to say outside the Catechism however hard that is to believe seeing as it is a huge book . Therefore, I will be citing other areas of Church teaching as well.

One of the difficulties I encounter in the Catholic Church is the variable emphases placed upon teachings. I am not speaking merely of the Church but also of its priests and laity. Thus, for example, some will maintain that the Bible is the absolute truth against which all other teachings are judged. Other will say that Tradition and the teachings of the Magisterium are of equal weight. Still others will say that only infalliable, ex-cathedra statements by the Pope (of which there have been so very few) are dogmatically true. What, then, is the final authority?

In CCC 838 it says:
Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."

So that means that all baptized Christians can be saved, as the Catholic Church considers them to be in some form of Communion with the Church. But what about unbaptized Christians? We will go to the section on of the Catechism dealing with Baptism.

In section on Baptism is quite extensive, however, in 1271 there is a quote stating
"it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." This is a quote from Vatican II's decree on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio, so that is where we will go next.

Just a quick interjection: How is an infant "justified by faith in baptism?" It seems to me that infants are incapable of having faith in anything, much less faith in their baptism.

At several points in this document non-Catholic Christians, are referred to as "separated brethren," recognizing them as our brothers and sisters in Christ. Further there is this paragraph:

"It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church."

The Holy Spirit has used non-Catholic Churches and communities as a means of salvation, meaning that people who belong to these organization have been saved! However what about the quote that you singled out?

How do we know that any Protestant has been saved? I am unaware of any Catholic saint that has been declared such from any church other than the Catholic church. It seems to me that if Protestants have been saved, according to the Catholic church, there would be some form of evidence that they are in heaven, unless salvation means something else.

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Lets break this down. The most important word in this selection I have bolded. So it is only if one knows that the Catholic Church was founded by God, and still refuse to follow Her teachings that they will not be saved. This does not mean that if they know that the Catholic Church teaches this doctrine they will not be saved, but rather they truly know (meaning they accept and believe) that Christ founded the Church and they know (again meaning they accept and believe believe) that what the Church teaches is true, but still reject the Catholic Church then they are not saved.

I know that last paragraph is a little convoluted, so if you need clarification, I would be more than happy to oblige!
Pax

The problem lies in the interpretation of the statement. There is no doubt whatsoever that every individual acts in accordance with his actual faith and not merely some intellecutal acknowledgement. As the old adage goes, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Thus, if a person actually believes something they will act accordingly. If they do not do so, we can say that they really never believed it in the first place (which is a basic argument for those who believe in the eternal security of the Christian).

The result is that one can say that those who have left the Catholic Church, of which there have been a multitude in recent years, really weren't Catholics in the first place and didn't really know Catholicism. Therefore, they really aren't necessarily lost.

In my personal view, all who know and trust Christ for their salvation will be saved and will perservere to the end. Those who don't never knew Him nor He them. You can transfer this understanding simply to say that all who know and trust Christ's Church for their salvation will be saved according to the Church and will perservere in the Church to the end. Those who don't never really knew the Church nor were they really members thereof.

That pretty much strips that statement in the Catechism from having any real application to anyone.

 

[papist1]

The problem lies in the interpretation of the statement. There is no doubt whatsoever that every individual acts in accordance with his actual faith and not merely some intellecutal acknowledgement. As the old adage goes, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Thus, if a person actually believes something they will act accordingly. If they do not do so, we can say that they really never believed it in the first place (which is a basic argument for those who believe in the eternal security of the Christian).

The result is that one can say that those who have left the Catholic Church, of which there have been a multitude in recent years, really weren't Catholics in the first place and didn't really know Catholicism. Therefore, they really aren't necessarily lost.

In my personal view, all who know and trust Christ for their salvation will be saved and will perservere to the end. Those who don't never knew Him nor He them. You can transfer this understanding simply to say that all who know and trust Christ's Church for their salvation will be saved according to the Church and will perservere in the Church to the end. Those who don't never really knew the Church nor were they really members thereof.

That pretty much strips that statement in the Catechism from having any real application to anyone.

Not at all. Jesus has but one Body. One flock and one shepherd, commanded to remain one, and to avoid divisions and dissenters.

This church is not in any way seperate from christ, as he is the one who instituted it upon cephas(rock) and safeguards it from erroneous teaching on faith and morals. In order to be saved you must be IN christ and His Body, the church, either explicitly, or implicitly. There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

peace, papist

 

[MamaZ]

Wow the church was not founded upon the back of Peter but on the blood of Christ..

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not at all. Jesus has but one Body. One flock and one shepherd, commanded to remain one, and to avoid divisions and dissenters.

This church is not in any way seperate from christ, as he is the one who instituted it upon cephas(rock) and safeguards it from erroneous teaching on faith and morals. In order to be saved you must be IN christ and His Body, the church, either explicitly, or implicitly. There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ.

peace, papist

Then, how do you know that the Catholic Church is that one Body and not some other Body? According to what you have said here, there can be no salvation outside of the CC and, therefore, Protestants, who are not part of the CC, are lost. Am I correct in understanding you to conflate Christ and the CC, which you believe to be His Body (the Church)?

Can one be in Jesus Christ and not in the CC?

 

[Rhamiel]

there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church

that means according to Catholic theology, every Protestant who is saved is joined in some mystical way to the Catholic Church, it is like the Protestant idea of the Invisible Chruch, but insted of being all connected to an invisible Church, Protestant Christians make up like an Invisible wing of the the Catholic Church
that is why we do not re-baptise Protestants when they convert, they are all ready part of the Body of Christ, if we did not really think this we would re-baptise you, but Catholics will NEVER re-baptise a person with a trinitarian water baptism

 

[alphonsus12]

Wow the church was not founded upon the back of Peter but on the blood of Christ..

Hrmmm... again it seems we are differing because of the different ways Catholics and Protestants read the Bible. Each group tends to emphasize different passages in their Biblical vocabularly.
Catholic:
Matthew 16:18
18And I tell you that you are Peter (in the Aramaic spoken by Jesus this would be Cephas), and on this rock (again cephas) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

When a Catholic talks about the Church being founded upon Peter, we are specifically referencing this passage. We are not saying that Peter is greater than Christ, as this is false and blasphemous, but rather we are simply referencing a passage in Holy Scripture, where Christ makes a statement about His Church. The blood of Christ is what redeems us and draws us to Christ himself, and thus together as a Church, but again, when Catholics make a statement as such, they are merely quoting our Lord.

 

[alphonsus12]

Then, how do you know that the Catholic Church is that one Body and not some other Body? According to what you have said here, there can be no salvation outside of the CC and, therefore, Protestants, who are not part of the CC, are lost. Am I correct in understanding you to conflate Christ and the CC, which you believe to be His Body (the Church)?

Can one be in Jesus Christ and not in the CC?

In addition to what Rhamiel has already said, we know that the Catholic Church is the one Body, as the Catholic Church is the onyl Church who can trace its origins through history back to the apostles. The Catholic Church's teachings and understanding of the Bible can be seen in the writings of the first and second century Christians.

 

[bbbbbbb]

there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church

that means according to Catholic theology, every Protestant who is saved is joined in some mystical way to the Catholic Church, it is like the Protestant idea of the Invisible Chruch, but insted of being all connected to an invisible Church, Protestant Christians make up like an Invisible wing of the the Catholic Church
that is why we do not re-baptise Protestants when they convert, they are all ready part of the Body of Christ, if we did not really think this we would re-baptise you, but Catholics will NEVER re-baptise a person with a trinitarian water baptism

Here things start getting quite gray for me. The Catholic church is visible and invisible. One can be saved whether or not he is a member of the (visible) church and cannot be saved unless he is a member of the (invisible) church. This is really close to Protestant theology. Although there are Protestant denominations that claim exclusivity in salvation to their members only, most Protestants today firmly hold to a view of an invisible church. That is my own position. Moreover, I do not hold to the necessity of water baptism for salvation in the light of the example of the repentant thief on the cross.

In light of previous statements, even the Catholic church does not hold to the necessity of water baptism for salvation if they hold out the promise of salvation to Jews and Muslims, as well.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In addition to what Rhamiel has already said, we know that the Catholic Church is the one Body, as the Catholic Church is the onyl Church who can trace its origins through history back to the apostles. The Catholic Church's teachings and understanding of the Bible can be seen in the writings of the first and second century Christians.

I beg to differ from you on this point. Both the EOC and the OOC have as clear a history tracing their origins back to the apostles. If your argument is to be valid, you must recognize the validity of their claims. They also use the same historical manuscripts as the Catholic Church and claim the very same things you do regarding what the earliest known Christians wrote.

You know the Catholic Church is the one Body because the Catholic Church has claimed to be that one Body and you have chosen to believe that claim.

 

[zac abraham]

Yea sure! If only catholics will be saved then all the crusaders and the pope who ordered the crusade to do much bloodshed will be in heaven! Catholic ways put a stumbling block before others,

Im an Indian Christian and whenever I tell my hindu friends about Christ, then tend to tell me that "CHRISTIANS WORSHIP THE GOD JESUS AND GODESSES MARY!"

And when I tell them thats its not true, they argue that they have seen catholics bowing down before statues of Jesus and Mary. Indian Catholics are recently including some quotes form Geeta(holy book of hindus) in bible (although not cannonizing but as refference). Isnt that evil?
And yet they believe they will go to heaven.

Nowhere its written in bible that only followers of Peter will be in heaven and rest of the disciples will go to hell, neither any disciples preach to follow Peter!

Jesus is God and theres noone besides Him! Everyone else is either a saint(christian) or a non christian.

Please stop believeing blind Pope and priests. They are like old Hippocrates Scribes and Pharisees.
Read bible and follow promptings of HolySpirit. Have eternal doctrine of GOD not carnal doctrines of Man!

 

[alphonsus12]

Yea sure! If only catholics will be saved then all the crusaders and the pope who ordered the crusade to do much bloodshed will be in heaven! Catholic ways put a stumbling block before others,

Im an Indian Christian and whenever I tell my hindu friends about Christ, then tend to tell me that "CHRISTIANS WORSHIP THE GOD JESUS AND GODESSES MARY!"

And when I tell them thats its not true, they argue that they have seen catholics bowing down before statues of Jesus and Mary. Indian Catholics are recently including some quotes form Geeta(holy book of hindus) in bible (although not cannonizing but as refference). Isnt that evil?
And yet they believe they will go to heaven.

Nowhere its written in bible that only followers of Peter will be in heaven and rest of the disciples will go to hell, neither any disciples preach to follow Peter!

Jesus is God and theres noone besides Him! Everyone else is either a saint(christian) or a non christian.

Please stop believeing blind Pope and priests. They are like old Hippocrates Scribes and Pharisees.
Read bible and follow promptings of HolySpirit. Have eternal doctrine of GOD not carnal doctrines of Man!

Tell me, where did you read that only Catholics get into heaven? Where did you read that by being Catholic you automatically get into heaven? Lets try to keep to the original post, if you have another topic, make a new post.

 

[Rhamiel]

And when I tell them thats its not true, they argue that they have seen catholics bowing down before statues of Jesus and Mary. Indian Catholics are recently including some quotes form Geeta(holy book of hindus) in bible (although not cannonizing but as refference). Isnt that evil?
And yet they believe they will go to heaven.

hello, not to get off topic, but the referance to the Geeta is so that hindus might understand the Gospel better, it is not putting the Geeta on the same leval as the Bible but trying to use what they already know to teach them the Truth of the Gospel

 

[alphonsus12]

And when I tell them thats its not true, they argue that they have seen catholics bowing down before statues of Jesus and Mary. Indian Catholics are recently including some quotes form Geeta(holy book of hindus) in bible (although not cannonizing but as refference). Isnt that evil?
And yet they believe they will go to heaven.

hello, not to get off topic, but the referance to the Geeta is so that hindus might understand the Gospel better, it is not putting the Geeta on the same leval as the Bible but trying to use what they already know to teach them the Truth of the Gospel

Bingo

 

[alphonsus12]

I beg to differ from you on this point. Both the EOC and the OOC have as clear a history tracing their origins back to the apostles. If your argument is to be valid, you must recognize the validity of their claims. They also use the same historical manuscripts as the Catholic Church and claim the very same things you do regarding what the earliest known Christians wrote.

You know the Catholic Church is the one Body because the Catholic Church has claimed to be that one Body and you have chosen to believe that claim.

You are absolutely right, thank you for pointing that out. I suppose I should clarify. The Catholic Church traces its apostolic succession back to Peter. The Primacy of Peter is a matter for another thread.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Im an Indian Christian and whenever I tell my hindu friends about Christ, then tend to tell me that "CHRISTIANS WORSHIP THE GOD JESUS AND GODESSES MARY!"

And when I tell them thats its not true, they argue that they have seen catholics bowing down before statues of Jesus and Mary.

it doesn't mean we worship her though.. it just means they misunderstood what it means when we bow to her (it means showing respect, veneration). worship is in the intention.