For Catholics - Who Is Saved?

[ebia]

what do you mean unscriptural?

An idea, picture, story, whatever, that directly or by close implication is contradictory to something we find in the Bible read. (With all the appropriate qualifiers to each bit of that).

The popular picture of purgatory that is condemned in various Reformation and subsequent stuff has all sorts of problems. But the picture of purgatory in Spe Salvi 47 is quite another matter. If that were the picture floating around in the 16th century things might have been quite different.

dear brother, satan is attacking us, i always seem to read your posts when i am in the worst of moods, i am sorry for my own weak flesh, God bless you

And you. Even when I'm at my most critical of the RCC, I'm speaking as a friend trying to be constructively critical, not as an enemy.

 

[Rhamiel]

No, this would be a very major issue if purgatory was real, so the Bible would have talked about it directly.

It talks about Abraham's bosom under the Old Testament...which is where the idea for pergentory came from.

But, under the New Testament...there is no mention of Abraham's bosom because it's no longer applicable....so the whole purgatory is just religious tradition.

purgatory is not in referance to Abrahams bosom

Yes, there is...the Blood of Jesus Christ!

true we say the same

 

[Rhamiel]

An idea, picture, story, whatever, that directly or by close implication is contradictory to something we find in the Bible read. (With all the appropriate qualifiers to each bit of that).

The popular picture of purgatory that is condemned in various Reformation and subsequent stuff has all sorts of problems. But the picture of purgatory in Spe Salvi 47 is quite another matter. If that were the picture floating around in the 16th century things might have been quite different.


And you. Even when I'm at my most critical of the RCC, I'm speaking as a friend trying to be constructively critical, not as an enemy.

well the pictures of Purgatory from the 1600s are still valid to believe in
nothing is unscriptural about them, they do not go agianst any teaching in the bible

 

[ebia]

No, this would be a very major issue if purgatory was real, so the Bible would have talked about it directly.

Unlike you, I'm not arrogant enough to think I can tell the New Testament authors what they should and should not talk about. I prefer to work with what the text does say and (try) not to make arguments from silence.

Yes, there is...the Blood of Jesus Christ!

A good understanding of purgatory need not run counter to that.

What it does run counter to is the idea that we don't still need to be refined, ultimately tranformed, to be fit for the Kingdom of God. Purgatory, at its best, is no more than a way of talking about the final burning away of the sinful nature that I still struggle with - a final consumation of what has been dealt with on the cross - when I encounter God in all his glory. Not something to be feared, but something to be welcomed.

Now, if you don't see the need for that I can only think there is something skewed about your view of yourself or something skewed about your final escatalogical hope.

 

[ebia]

well the pictures of Purgatory from the 1600s are still valid to believe in
nothing is unscriptural about them, they do not go agianst any teaching in the bible

I would have to disagree. IMO the picture painted in Spe Salvi is something many good non-Catholic theologians (East and West) could run with, eg
Saved in Hope: Reflections on an Encyclical by the Bishop of Durham, Dr. N. T. Wright
but not the 16th century picture as it stood.

 

[Rhamiel]

What it does run counter to is the idea that we don't still need to be refined, ultimately tranformed, to be fit for the Kingdom of God. Purgatory, at its best, is no more than a way of talking about the final burning away of the sinful nature that I still struggle with

thats it
burn away
we have twisted ourselves up with sin
sooo
it might hurt a lot
it might take 198 years,
i do not know, i can not say
it might not hurt at all
it might not even be inside of time like we understand it

 

[ebia]

thats it
burn away
we have twisted ourselves up with sin
sooo
it might hurt a lot
it might take 198 years,
i do not know, i can not say
it might not hurt at all
it might not even be inside of time like we understand it

And on that question I would have to go with +Benedict:

It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39].

 

[KM Richards]

But the picture of purgatory in Spe Salvi 47 is quite another matter.

It's total bunk because it's not taught in the Bible...

If you think it is, where's the scripture for it???

If there's no scripture for it, it ain't so!

 

[Rhamiel]

It's total bunk because it's not taught in the Bible...

If you think it is, where's the scripture for it???

If there's no scripture for it, it ain't so!

2 Maccabees 12:46: "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin."

the fact that the jews made atonement for the dead showed that they believed that there was hope that the dead could be forgiven of sins
even if you do not accept Maccabees as scripture, you must say it is atleast a historical document (although i would like to know by what authority you have to say what is scripture and what is not)

Matthew 5:26 "Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."
the verse before that talks about dealing with problems before you see the judge

Matthew 12:32"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
this seems to referance that some things will be forgiven in the world to come

 

[KM Richards]

the fact that the jews made atonement for the dead showed that they believed that there was hope that the dead could be forgiven of sins

That's not in the Bible...and even if some of the Jews actually did this, many of the things the Jews did under the OT are no longer applicable because of the New Testament that is based on better promises due to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The way God deals with mankind has totally changed due to what Jesus has done...

 

[Rhamiel]

also, in Revelations, it says nothing unclean can enter heaven
lets say you hate your neighbor Bob, you know you should not hate him, but you do, you ask God to forgive you, and you work hard, but you still do not really like the guy, you get out of your car and look up, and the last thing you see is Bob about to hit you with his car, the last thoughts you had in this life were "Bob you $&@!#"
now you are in heaven, when you were alive on earth, you hated Bob, now you are in heaven, nothing unclean can enter heaven, you died with hate in your heart, but now it is gone
somewhere between death and heaven, God took away that last bit of hate and sin that was in you, He did not do it while you were in heaven becase the Bible says NOTHING unclean can enter heaven

 

[KM Richards]

also, in Revelations, it says nothing unclean can enter heaven

That which has been cleansed by the Blood of Jesus is not unclean.

You are confusing "feelings" (I still feel like I hate Bob, even after repenting and asking for and receieving forgiveness)

Bottom line...none of us are perfect and all of us are doing something that isn't right before God, so we are to walk in the light as He is in the light and we have fellowship one with another and His sin cleanses us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:7)

In other words, if we are walking with a pure heart before God and are doing what we know we should be doing as God reveals to us how we should walk, and we are quick to follow 1 John 1:9 when we know we have sinned...you're good to go

 

[Rhamiel]

That which has been cleansed by the Blood of Jesus is not unclean.

You are confusing "feelings" (I still feel like I hate Bob, even after repenting and asking for and receieving forgiveness)

Bottom line...none of us are perfect and all of us are doing something that isn't right before God, so we are to walk in the light as He is in the light and we have fellowship one with another and His sin cleanses us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:7)

In other words, if we are walking with a pure heart before God and are doing what we know we should be doing as God reveals to us how we should walk, and we are quick to follow 1 John 1:9 when we know we have sinned...you're good to go

none of us are perfect
but in heaven we will be perfect
we will not be made perfect in heaven, we know this because it says "nothing unclean will enter heaven" that includes feelings or whatever, it does not say no unclean person, but nothing unclean

so somewhere between death and heaven there is something else, where God takes away all the unclean feelings or whatever, that a person has

 

[KM Richards]

After having been washed in the Blood of Jesus, and considering God sees me IN Jesus (Colossians 1:13)...
As far as He is concerned, I'm perfect now!

If I'm not, then the Blood of Jesus is nothing more than dirty red water tham is meaningless...

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

 

[Rhamiel]

so you will be just as you are when you are in heaven? with any little vices that are in you now?

 

[KM Richards]

so you will be just as you are when you are in heaven? with any little vices that are in you now?

Currently, I'm a new Creature in Christ Jesus...I'm already just like Him.

I am a spirit (New Creature), I possess a soul (still renewing the mind / understanding) and I live in a body (Temple of the Holy Ghost).

Vices are no problem when the tempter and all darkness has been removed. Any bad habits that are sinful will cease to be in anyone's memory once in Heaven.

 

[ebia]

Currently, I'm a new Creature in Christ Jesus...I'm already just like Him.

I am a spirit (New Creature), I possess a soul (still renewing the mind / understanding) and I live in a body (Temple of the Holy Ghost).

Vices are no problem when the tempter and all darkness has been removed. Any bad habits that are sinful will cease to be in anyone's memory once in Heaven.

You seem to have lost track of the New Testament's "now but not yet" to pretty much everything.

But if you insist on using that not very helpful language, think of it as that aspect of the tempter being burned away from you at that moment of glorification.

 

[KM Richards]

No, God says I'm a new Creature in Christ Jesus...right now!
Because of the cleansing of the Blood of the Lamb, I'm righteous...right now!

And, as such...thru the power of the Holy Spirit in me and upon me,
I have not only the right, but the ability to live free from the effects of
sin in this life...right now!

Either we have been set free...or God is a liar!
I choose to believe God is no liar.

 

[janwoG]

To Athanasias:
Thanks for your question. The Catholic Church anathematized(which means to excommunicate when spoken of in Canon documents and councils) the original reformers.
I will be damned because I was a former Catholic. My breaking up from the Roman Church followed in two steps. First after my divorce 45 years ago , I did not went to church anymore and joined a Freemason lodge. To my great surprise, they were not antireligious but very open, and not worshiping Satan, like some are stating. They reconciled me with the spiritual. Remariing my divorced wife, I was on the verge to go again into church, when Cardinal Ratzinger confirmed the excommunication of Catholic Freemasons. I was scandalized about that and broke definitely with the Catholic Church. Eight years ago I went to a protestant church and became a committed Christian 6 years ago. Long time I was very angry at this cardinal, but to-day I am very grateful to him, giving me the opportunity to become protestant. Protestantism is much closer to the Holy Writ and has only, on the spiritual level, One Father, the Holy Father in Heaven and One Master or Teacher Jesus the Messiah. And nevertheless, I became convinced that Ecumenism including with the Roman Church is absolutely vital for the survival of Christianity, this in spite of my Catholic Past.

 

[alwayspondering]

Thanks for the explanation. It does help me understand current thinking, I assume, of course, that this also applies to the Orthodox.

What I had found puzzling is that when I was growing up ages ago in a very Catholic city all of my Catholic friends kept telling me that I was assured going to hell because I was not Catholic and that only Catholics had the hope of heaven because there was no salvation outside of the Church.

In the 1960's with Vatican II and the ecumenical movement there were many changes, including a new openness to non-Catholic Christians. Now, I know that Vatican II was not on the level of an ex-cathedra statement. However, all the anathemas and bulls issued by the Pope against Protestants and the Orthodox in the past condemning them in very strong and unflattering terms to the fires of hell surely must mean something. So, my question is whether the Catholic church changed its mind or did God change His mind.

I've been confused about this as well
. One time i was talking to a Catholic about this and he said it was wrong to say that protestants are part of the Catholic Church (even though imperfectly / incompletely) but he still insisted that they could somehow get to Heaven becaus of their... well, he said something about how a person can be Catholic on the "inner forum" - the external forum being Actual Membership in the Roman Catholic Church. the inner forum is believing as Catholics do and i am not sure there is more to it than that or not (?)

Maybe i am one of the best persons to ask this question (despite my sometime-confusion) because i have been all over the board in my spirituality - and i am NOT all that young either. I am a cradle Catholic, then i was "born again" (the Catholics call it filled with the Spirit), then i went 'astray' (though i have loved Jesus in my own imperfect way all my life). then my life "hit bottom" as they say and i lost all hope that God loved me,that he would ever take me back, that i would ever be "good enough" for Him. i prayed the rosary and that changed my whole perspective and my whole life. i didn't then go back to the Church, but eventually i did. When i found out that going to Mass on Sunday was mandatory, i got angry. I wanted to sleep in on my day off (although i was going fairly often anyhow) i called such a "rule" too "legalistic", a term i had heard from protestants here & there throughout my life. But i began to go to mass every Sunday anyhow. then i noticed people going to daily Mass also so i tried that.

Words cannot say how much this benefited me. As the Cure d'Ars (priest/saint) once said... something to the effect that All good works that man can do are not equal to the Mass because works are of man, while the Mass is the work of God. i have found this to be TRUE!! from experience. I know i will never convince one who has not walked half a mile in my shoes, but it is TRUE!!

Anyway, then i went across "the board" in another direction; i had some bad experiences in the Church and sometimes thought i wanted out. I got SO angry sometimes at how Catholics didn't act the least bit like Christians (many long stories) But i will never leave because Jesus is there - tangibly there, in His Church 24/7, waiting for us all

it just stands to reason that the devil would attack His Church