For Catholics - Who Is Saved?

[papist1]

Church attendance is not a requirement for a salvation. We are only required to be a part of the body of Christ through our faith.

Uh, remember the sabbath and keep it Holy?

The Lords day upgraded the OT sabbath, and that is when they met, on the first day of each week. And if you lived in the first 1500 years of Christianity, you would know that regular attendance on the first day of the week is necessary, and if you purposefully missed it, you would not be in a state of grace(no salvation til you repent and confess that sin).

Now if you are going by men's rules, then no, you can have it your way, like all of the burger king churches around the world doing their own thing and not God's will.

peace, papist

 

[JimfromOhio]

Regarding salvation: Most Christians (Protestants, Reformed and etc) characterize the dogma concerning the Pope as Christ's representative head of the Church on earth, the concept of meritorious works, and the Catholic idea of a treasury of the merits of saints, as a denial that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. Most Christians believe that faith in Christ alone is enough for eternal salvation (as stated in Ephesians 2:8-9), whereas Catholics believe "faith without works is dead" (as stated in James 2:20). Most Christians believe that practicing good works attests to one's faith in Christ and his teachings. The Roman Catholic view of the means of salvation was believed by the Christians to be a mixture of reliance upon the grace of God, and confidence in the merits of one's own works, performed in love. The Reformers posited that salvation is entirely comprehended in God's gifts, (i.e. God's act of free grace) dispensed by the Holy Spirit according to the redemptive work of Jesus Christ alone. Consequently, they argued that a sinner is not accepted by God on account of the change wrought in the believer by God's grace, and that the believer is accepted without any regard for the merit of his works — for no one deserves salvation.

Our salvation must be true from the beginning or else, you can play Christian and not be saved. We can fake other people but we can't fake to God. People can possess an intellectual understanding and knowledge of the truth and yet not be saved. A person may remember exactly when they made the "decision" but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. By itself, even conviction of sin is not a proof of salvation. We all can claim to be a Christian, and we all believe that the root of the matter is in us and the seed of God is in our hearts.

Galatians 6:3 "If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself."

James 1:26 says, "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."

 

[Aibrean]

Uh, remember the sabbath and keep it Holy?

The Lords day upgraded the OT sabbath, and that is when they met, on the first day of each week. And if you lived in the first 1500 years of Christianity, you would know that regular attendance on the first day of the week is necessary, and if you purposefully missed it, you would not be in a state of grace(no salvation til you repent and confess that sin).

Now if you are going by men's rules, then no, you can have it your way, like all of the burger king churches around the world doing their own thing and not God's will.

peace, papist

Remembering the Sabbath and keeping it holy does not necessitate church attendance. That's probably why I couldn't be a Catholic. I believe that faith and grace trumps legalism. Of course church attendance is important (Hebrews 10:25) but I can't see it as a requirement for salvation. We are not saved by our works. We are saved by our faith. The works is a result of the faith we have.

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

 

[boswd]

Regarding salvation: Most Christians (Protestants, Reformed and etc) characterize the dogma concerning the Pope as Christ's representative head of the Church on earth, the concept of meritorious works, and the Catholic idea of a treasury of the merits of saints, as a denial that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. Most Christians believe that faith in Christ alone is enough for eternal salvation (as stated in Ephesians 2:8-9), whereas Catholics believe "faith without works is dead" (as stated in James 2:20). Most Christians believe that practicing good works attests to one's faith in Christ and his teachings. The Roman Catholic view of the means of salvation was believed by the Christians to be a mixture of reliance upon the grace of God, and confidence in the merits of one's own works, performed in love. The Reformers posited that salvation is entirely comprehended in God's gifts, (i.e. God's act of free grace) dispensed by the Holy Spirit according to the redemptive work of Jesus Christ alone. Consequently, they argued that a sinner is not accepted by God on account of the change wrought in the believer by God's grace, and that the believer is accepted without any regard for the merit of his works — for no one deserves salvation.

Our salvation must be true from the beginning or else, you can play Christian and not be saved. We can fake other people but we can't fake to God. People can possess an intellectual understanding and knowledge of the truth and yet not be saved. A person may remember exactly when they made the "decision" but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. By itself, even conviction of sin is not a proof of salvation. We all can claim to be a Christian, and we all believe that the root of the matter is in us and the seed of God is in our hearts.

Galatians 6:3 "If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself."

James 1:26 says, "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."

very nice post

 

[Rhamiel]

Remembering the Sabbath and keeping it holy does not necessitate church attendance. That's probably why I couldn't be a Catholic. I believe that faith and grace trumps legalism. Of course church attendance is important (Hebrews 10:25) but I can't see it as a requirement for salvation. We are not saved by our works. We are saved by our faith. The works is a result of the faith we have.

we must not fall into the trap of legalism, but to "remember the sabbath and keep it holy" does emply that some type of "action" or "works" is needed, we are not saved by our own actions, because no one can earn Salvation, we are all sinners and do not deserve His forgivness, but the Bible also says faith without works is a dead faith...
if a person was unable to attend Church that would be one thing, but under normal condistions, I would say that attending church is part of keeping the Sabbath holy

 

[papist1]

we must not fall into the trap of legalism, but to "remember the sabbath and keep it holy" does emply that some type of "action" or "works" is needed, we are not saved by our own actions, because no one can earn Salvation, we are all sinners and do not deserve His forgivness, but the Bible also says faith without works is a dead faith...
if a person was unable to attend Church that would be one thing, but under normal condistions, I would say that attending church is part of keeping the Sabbath holy

amen

 

[JimfromOhio]

we must not fall into the trap of legalism, but to "remember the sabbath and keep it holy" does emply that some type of "action" or "works" is needed, we are not saved by our own actions, because no one can earn Salvation, we are all sinners and do not deserve His forgivness, but the Bible also says faith without works is a dead faith...
if a person was unable to attend Church that would be one thing, but under normal condistions, I would say that attending church is part of keeping the Sabbath holy

Yes. Everyday, we are to worship and fellowship. We should me every effort to attend Church every week, either Saturday or Sunday or whenever your local Church set up Worship Services. Do we take God seriously and exalt Him in all we do? Our view of God will affect every aspect of our lives and ministry.

Ask yourself if God is the focus of your worship or if your preoccupied with each other or themselves?

Only one day a week, we are to REST from our daily activities (of the 7th day of our working cycle). We need to remember that the legal issue is not the Sabbath anymore but Grace of practice.

 

[bbbbbbb]

UH, wow, how deep.



what Church gave us the canon of scripture?

The Catholic Church. Wrong. The EOC has just as much a claim as any other church in existence at the time of the Council of Nicea, including the western churches.

What Church placed the chapters and verses in that Bible?

The Catholic Church. Also incorrect. The Tanach (Old Testament) was divided into chapters and verses by the Jews and their order differs from the Chrstian order in some aspects.

Jesus only started one Church, not one among many, and that church has been visible from day one, to this very day.

One, Holy Universal, Apostolic. YES!!! The One, Orthodox, Holy, Universial, Apostolic, Patriarchal Church. I think you may have just made the day for all of the EOC folks reading this thread.


amen

Amen and Amen

 

[papist1]

Amen and Amen

Ahhh, nice wishfull thinking. And we can readily see the incredible fruits of the EOC throughout the ages and the massive influx of converts thoughout time.....chirp chirp


And without the prime minister of Christ who holds the keys with the authroity to bind and loose, what do you have?

Something less than what Christ gave to the world.

That's just my perspective, take it as you will.

BTW there were four canons of the OT previous to Christ, which one of those are you claiming?

peace, papist

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ahhh, nice wishfull thinking. And we can readily see the incredible fruits of the EOC throughout the ages and the massive influx of converts thoughout time.....chirp chirp

So . . . numbers of members = relative amount of truth. I guess we should all convert to Islam now that it is said to outnumber Christianity. BTW, the Orthodox churches in America are more than holding their own in membership whereas the RCC is hemorraghing members.

quote=papist1;52169641] And without the prime minister of Christ who holds the keys with the authroity to bind and loose, what do you have?[/quote]

Ummmm . . . God, the Holy Spirit? I think I will take the promised Holy Spirit from Christ. You can keep your Pope.

quote=papist1;52169641] Something less than what Christ gave to the world.[/quote]

Pray tell me how God, the Holy Spirit is less than the Pope.

quote=papist1;52169641] That's just my perspective, take it as you will.[/quote]

I will.

quote=papist1;52169641] BTW there were four canons of the OT previous to Christ, which one of those are you claiming?[/quote]

I claim the same canon as was recognized by the Jews at the Council of Jamnia. I reckon that they, of all folks, ought to have known their own canon, don't you?

quote=papist1;52169641] peace, papist[/quote]

Peace through God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Rhamiel]

I am protestant and I refuse to be joined with the catholic church it has many "traditions of men" that are contrary to God.

Catholic do not try to link me with your terrible church.

do you want us to think you are going to hell?

there is the Body of Christ, and there are those who are not saved
it is not "my church" "your church" "their church" "my old church" whatever...
there is one Church and it was created by Jesus Christ
either you are part of it or you are not

 

[KM Richards]

There is no salvation outside of the (Catholic) Church we still teach this....

Whether they go to purgatory or not depends upon their level of sanctification at death....

Protestants and Catholics will both be in purgatory....

Got scripture references for any of this???

 

[Rhamiel]

Got scripture references for any of this???

um, yeah, for all of it
salvation is for the Church, well look at the New Testiment, St. Paul describes the Church like a body, we are all connected though the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
from early on it was a visible Church with Apostles and Elders and presbiters who were all in communion with eachother, not some protestant denominationalism, but One Body of believers across the roman empire

as for purgatory, i there are some allusions to it in the Bible but nothing super clear, i can get back to you on that latter

 

[KM Richards]

um, yeah, for all of it
salvation is for the Church, well look at the New Testiment, St. Paul describes the Church like a body, we are all connected though the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
from early on it was a visible Church with Apostles and Elders and presbiters who were all in communion with eachother, not some protestant denominationalism, but One Body of believers across the roman empire

as for purgatory, i there are some allusions to it in the Bible but nothing super clear, i can get back to you on that latter

When the bible says "the Church", that is a reference to the Body of Jesus Christ...not the cathlic church, which is nothing more than just another denomination.

Yes, please get back to me with the New Testament scriptures on purgatory...I've been asking cathlics to provide scripture for this for many years, and none of them have been able to provide that information

 

[ebia]

um, yeah, for all of it
salvation is for the Church, well look at the New Testiment, St. Paul describes the Church like a body, we are all connected though the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
from early on it was a visible Church with Apostles and Elders and presbiters who were all in communion with eachother, not some protestant denominationalism, but One Body of believers across the roman empire

The defining characteristic for Paul of who is and who is not part of the church is faith in Jesus Christ, ie circumcision of the heart replacing circumcision. That's what Justification by Faith is really about - discerning who are the People of God to whom God's covenant promises apply. While that church should be all in communion one with another, clearly it currently is not, but that doesn't mean that the church can be reduced to a smaller subgroup that is in mutual communion without disregarding a good deal of what Paul is on about in Galatians, Romans and 1 Corinthians.

as for purgatory, i there are some allusions to it in the Bible but nothing super clear, i can get back to you on that latter

Some pictures of purgatory are clearly unscriptural. But proving any vision from scripture is likely to be fruitless because the New Testament isn't that interested in talking about that stuff - its much more interested in the here and now and the final resurrection - and when it does say something it does so in metaphor that is very open to interpretation.

"Can you prove purgatory from scripture" is the wrong question to ask. A better question might be "is there a picture of final purification that is compatible with scripture, and if so is this what good Catholic theology means by 'purgatory'?"

 

[Rhamiel]

When the bible says "the Church", that is a reference to the Body of Jesus Christ...not the cathlic church, which is nothing more than just another denomination.

Yes, please get back to me with the New Testament scriptures on purgatory...I've been asking cathlics to provide scripture for this for many years, and none of them have been able to provide that information

what about OT scripture?
oh and, where does the bible talk about denominations?

the Bible talks about a Church, with the Apostles and Elders as leaders not some mixed up corpus of 1,000,000 groups who are not even in communion with eachother and dissagree over basic doctirne
the Bible talks about it as a single group with differant churches in differant cities

 

[Rhamiel]

The defining characteristic for Paul of who is and who is not part of the church is faith in Jesus Christ, ie circumcision of the heart replacing circumcision. That's what Justification by Faith is really about - discerning who are the People of God to whom God's covenant promises apply. While that church should be all in communion one with another, clearly it currently is not, but that doesn't mean that the church can be reduced to a smaller subgroup that is in mutual communion without disregarding a good deal of what Paul is on about in Galatians, Romans and 1 Corinthians.


Some pictures of purgatory are clearly unscriptural. But proving any vision from scripture is likely to be fruitless because the New Testament isn't that interested in talking about that stuff - its much more interested in the here and now and the final resurrection - and when it does say something it does so in metaphor that is very open to interpretation.

"Can you prove purgatory from scripture" is the wrong question to ask. A better question might be "is there a picture of final purification that is compatible with scripture, and if so is this what good Catholic theology means by 'purgatory'?"

what do you mean unscriptural?
dear brother, satan is attacking us, i always seem to read your posts when i am in the worst of moods, i am sorry for my own weak flesh, God bless you

 

[ebia]

what about OT scripture?
oh and, where does the bible talk about denominations?

the Bible talks about a Church, with the Apostles and Elders as leaders not some mixed up corpus of 1,000,000 groups who are not even in communion with eachother and dissagree over basic doctirne
the Bible talks about it as a single group with differant churches in differant cities

It certainly shows that as how things are supposed to be, while at the same time recognising that often the People of God has fallen short of that in practice, with (off the top of my head) rifts between the Two Kingdoms, rifts between Jewish and Gentile believers, exclusion between the poor and the wealthy in Corinth,...

If the ideal were really how things always worked most of the bible would never have been written.

 

[KM Richards]

Can you prove purgatory from scripture" is the wrong question to ask.

No, this would be a very major issue if purgatory was real, so the Bible would have talked about it directly.

It talks about Abraham's bosom under the Old Testament...which is where the idea for pergentory came from.

But, under the New Testament...there is no mention of Abraham's bosom because it's no longer applicable....so the whole purgatory is just religious tradition.

 

[KM Richards]

is there a picture of final purification

Yes, there is...the Blood of Jesus Christ!