For Catholics - Who Is Saved?

[bbbbbbb]

saying the Catholic Church has the "fullness of salvation" would be like saying " the Catholic Church has the most correct understanding of the Divine Revelation from God and that our practices and Traditions are spiritualy healthy" I think it is something very close to that which is being said.
This does not mean that there people in other Christian denominations are not saved, Christ came to take away sin from mankind, I am sure many many many Christians in all denominations are being saved
but that is inspite of the errors in doctrine and the traditions or practices that might not be inclinded to fostering spiritual health

Katholikos had requested a citation from the Catholic Cathechism regarding "the fullness of salvation" although I had merely stated that this was taught by the Catholic Church. I responded with a link to a homily which specifically addressed that issue.

As I understand the matter, it is possible that someone might be saved outside of the Catholic Church, such as an aborted baby. It is also possible that otherwise good, practicing Catholics can be lost, such as a Pope. However, salvation is assured to nobody by the Catholic Church. Thus, one's probability of being saved increases with one's exposure and participation in the Catholic Church and its sacraments. Thus, the Catholic Church recognizes trinitarian baptism in other denominations as being valid and accomplishing essentially the same segment of the salvation process as in the Catholic Church. However, baptism is insufficient to actually save a person unless that person happens to die at the moment of baptism. The Catholic Church has recognized the validity of the eucharist in the EOC and OOC, but not Protestant churches. Thus, the folks in the EOC and the OOC are granted that essential step toward salvation, but those in Protestant denominations are precluded it. That leaves five other salvific sacraments unqiuely in the Catholic Church. If I am not mistaken, apart from these the typical person will be denied salvation at the last day.

 

[Rhamiel]

Katholikos had requested a citation from the Catholic Cathechism regarding "the fullness of salvation" although I had merely stated that this was taught by the Catholic Church. I responded with a link to a homily which specifically addressed that issue.

As I understand the matter, it is possible that someone might be saved outside of the Catholic Church, such as an aborted baby. It is also possible that otherwise good, practicing Catholics can be lost, such as a Pope. However, salvation is assured to nobody by the Catholic Church. Thus, one's probability of being saved increases with one's exposure and participation in the Catholic Church and its sacraments. Thus, the Catholic Church recognizes trinitarian baptism in other denominations as being valid and accomplishing essentially the same segment of the salvation process as in the Catholic Church. However, baptism is insufficient to actually save a person unless that person happens to die at the moment of baptism. The Catholic Church has recognized the validity of the eucharist in the EOC and OOC, but not Protestant churches. Thus, the folks in the EOC and the OOC are granted that essential step toward salvation, but those in Protestant denominations are precluded it. That leaves five other salvific sacraments unqiuely in the Catholic Church. If I am not mistaken, apart from these the typical person will be denied salvation at the last day.

indulgences are given out by the Church, they deal with the temporal effects of sins already forgiven

 

[bbbbbbb]

indulgences are given out by the Church, they deal with the temporal effects of sins already forgiven

Indulengences granted by the Catholic Church, but are not given in the sense of a true and free gift. They are granted to those who in some form or another have merited or earned them.

Forgiveness, in a biblical sense, comes with no strings attached. It is a free and unmerited gift (Romans 3:23). To believe that one has had one's sins forgiven and yet those sins must be atoned for by that individual makes a mockery of the biblical concept of forgiveness.

It can be argued that the temporal effects of sin are not eradicated by divine forgiveness. For example, if one abuses one's body as in the overindulgence of food one will experience the results in the form of medical complications. However, after death, obesity is no longer an issue and the temporal effects of that sin have passed. While alive, no amount of indulgences will mitigate the temporal effects of gluttony.

The purpose of indulgences is to enable divine justice to be mollified for those sins which remain following death.

The point which seems to be overlooked here is that this is not a thread about Purgatory or indulgences, per se, but about who, according to the Catholic Church, is saved.

The bottom line in the Catholic Church seems to be that nobody is saved because the Catholic Church does not provide the slightest assurance of salvation to any person. There are degrees of hope for salvation, but there is no assurance.

 

[Rhamiel]

bbbbb

There are degrees of hope for salvation, but there is no assurance.

that sounds about right

 

[bbbbbbb]

bbbbb
that sounds about right

As I see it, the great problem with the Catholic teaching concerning salvation is that it deprives saints of the joy of their salvation and extends a false hope of salvation to those who are otherwise reprobate sinners.

 

[Rhamiel]

As I see it, the great problem with the Catholic teaching concerning salvation is that it deprives saints of the joy of their salvation and extends a false hope of salvation to those who are otherwise reprobate sinners.

even St.Paul said he was working out salvation with fear and trembiling
I do think to much emphasis is put on the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics and non-Christians, it is a hard topic

Indulengences granted by the Catholic Church, but are not given in the sense of a true and free gift.

they can be given, or the Church can ask that some prayers or other good deed be done to obtaine them

 

[bbbbbbb]

even St.Paul said he was working out salvation with fear and trembiling
I do think to much emphasis is put on the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics and non-Christians, it is a hard topic

Nevertheless scripture, both Old and New Testaments, speaks of the joy and assurance of salvation. St. Paul frequently encourages the readers of his letters to abound in hope and joy. A classic is example is the first portion of II Corinthians 1,

they can be given, or the Church can ask that some prayers or other good deed be done to obtaine them

Does the Church, out of the blue, just announce at mass or by some other means, that Joe Plummer has been given an indulgence or two or even three? It seems that indulgences are granted for various reasons, but never without a reason.

 

[alphonsus12]

1.)Nevertheless scripture, both Old and New Testaments, speaks of the joy and assurance of salvation. St. Paul frequently encourages the readers of his letters to abound in hope and joy. A classic is example is the first portion of II Corinthians 1,

2.)Does the Church, out of the blue, just announce at mass or by some other means, that Joe Plummer has been given an indulgence or two or even three? It seems that indulgences are granted for various reasons, but never without a reason.

1.) I am forced to disagree, Romans 8:24 seems like the perfect example. Scripture uses all three tenses when referring to salvation, past (Acts 16:31), present (Phil 2:12), and future (Rom.13:11). This cannot be the case if it is referring to assurance, so it must mean something else. Catholics believe we hope for salvation, but as Christ Himself states in the Gospel of Matthew "but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." (Matt. 10:22)

2.) This one is going to be a lot of reading, but we can get through it! Lets start back at the beginning with indulgences. First, an indulgence is not a forgiveness of sin, but rather, a removal of the temporal effects of sin. When we sin, it has an effect on our soul, marring our relationship with Our Lord, and marring our will. When we repent and that sin is forgiven, the relationship with Christ is restored, however, our will may still be inclined towards that sin.

This is why Catholics believe in Purgatory, because while we may die in the friendship with the Lord, our souls may still be imperfect because of our defective will, and as the book of Revelation tells us "nothing impure shall enter it (the Lord's eternal city)" (Rev 21:27). In my understanding of indulgences (this may be wrong) the indulgence helps us by helping us to heal the wounds our souls have endured here on Earth.


When a Catholic receives an indulgence it means that something they have done has opened them more fully to the Lord's grace allowing the healing of their soul. As for the distribution of indulgences, the Church has certain acts or devotions that are recognized as indulgences, and when you faithfully do these things you receive your indulgence, there is no form or announcement as far as I know. The important thing is that the person who receives an indulgence must do so faithfully, meaning it is not a get out of jail free type of thing, one cannot live a life of unrepentant sin while following a devotion to receive an indulgence, it does not work like that.

Pax

 

[champuru]

i didn't know that indulgences were still handed out. maybe i'm thinking of the practice of selling indulgences?

 

[Rhamiel]

Does the Church, out of the blue, just announce at mass or by some other means, that Joe Plummer has been given an indulgence or two or even three? It seems that indulgences are granted for various reasons, but never without a reason.

well there are things that you can do, like sets of prayers to earn it, it does not even have to be announced that a person did it, it is just said that these prayers will earn you an indulgence
it is possible that the Church could just decide to give away an indulgence, I do not know if this is done lol
i am not an expert on the issue

 

[Rhamiel]

i didn't know that indulgences were still handed out. maybe i'm thinking of the practice of selling indulgences?

we do not sell them any more
and in the last 50 years the indulgence has been ignored and downplayed a lot
I think JFK got one, I am not sure

 

[champuru]

we do not sell them any more
and in the last 50 years the indulgence has been ignored and downplayed a lot
I think JFK got one, I am not sure

okay, so i was thinking of the practice of selling indulgences. thanks for the clarification

 

[papist1]

Thanks for the explanation. It does help me understand current thinking, I assume, of course, that this also applies to the Orthodox.

What I had found puzzling is that when I was growing up ages ago in a very Catholic city all of my Catholic friends kept telling me that I was assured going to hell because I was not Catholic and that only Catholics had the hope of heaven because there was no salvation outside of the Church.

In the 1960's with Vatican II and the ecumenical movement there were many changes, including a new openness to non-Catholic Christians. Now, I know that Vatican II was not on the level of an ex-cathedra statement. However, all the anathemas and bulls issued by the Pope against Protestants and the Orthodox in the past condemning them in very strong and unflattering terms to the fires of hell surely must mean something. So, my question is whether the Catholic church changed its mind or did God change His mind.

No doctrine of the Church changed at Vatican II. Period.

Ecumenism was certainly focused on and the mass was brought into the vernacular, but these are not doctrine.

Certain practices of the church, such as language and dress, and the like, are not held to in stone nor doctrine. God did not "change his mind" on anything concerning doctrines of faith and morals, which do not change.

peace, papist

 

[bbbbbbb]

No doctrine of the Church changed at Vatican II. Period.

Ecumenism was certainly focused on and the mass was brought into the vernacular, but these are not doctrine.

Certain practices of the church, such as language and dress, and the like, are not held to in stone nor doctrine. God did not "change his mind" on anything concerning doctrines of faith and morals, which do not change.

peace, papist

So, if nothing has changed at all (and I agree with that statement) which is correct - the belief of the Catholic Church of my childhood in which I, as a non-Catholic, was headed for an eternity in hell because I was not a Catholic, or the present belief of the Catholic Church that I, as a Protestaant, am a partaker of salvation (whatever that may mean) although I do not partake of the "fullness of salvation" (whatever that may mean) offered exclusively by the Catholic Church? The short question is am I still headed for hell or not?

 

[papist1]

So, if nothing has changed at all (and I agree with that statement) which is correct - the belief of the Catholic Church of my childhood in which I, as a non-Catholic, was headed for an eternity in hell because I was not a Catholic, or the present belief of the Catholic Church that I, as a Protestaant, am a partaker of salvation (whatever that may mean) although I do not partake of the "fullness of salvation" (whatever that may mean) offered exclusively by the Catholic Church? The short question is am I still headed for hell or not?

did not say "nothing has changed" I said no official doctrine changed to mean anything different.

As for your soul, that is God's business, as paul stated, even though he knew of nothing against himself, he could not pronounce himself as being jusitifed, for God is the only knower of the hman heart and will make all things known on that day(judgement).

The church (paraphrasing) states that al those believing in one God and doing the wil of God to the best of their ability have the opportunity at salvation, including protestants, jews, muslims and the like.

We are not talking about muslim extremeists, nor hateful persons claiming Christ who die unrepentant etc...Since we do not know the state of a persons state of mind, body or soul at death, we cannot be the judge. We only know that every single person on this earth has been offered the reward Christ purchased for them, whether or not they take it is between them and God, and that is why the church evangelizes and lives out the faith to the best of their ability, in spite of the weeds amongst the wheat.

you know, if you type in the word "catechism" in gogle, and go to an easily navigated catholic catechism, you could put in the key word of your liking and look up the answer to your question(s) very easily and quickly.

peace, papist

 

[bbbbbbb]

did not say "nothing has changed" I said no official doctrine changed to mean anything different.

I suppose the question then becomes whether or not the Catholic Church every held an "official doctrine" regarding itself as holding the "fullness of salvation" or whether Protestants ever were "partakers of salvation.:

As for your soul, that is God's business, as paul stated, even though he knew of nothing against himself, he could not pronounce himself as being jusitifed, for God is the only knower of the hman heart and will make all things known on that day(judgement).

While this is true, it has not kept the Catholic Church from offering its opinions on the matter. Whether these opinions amount to official doctrine can be seen in the Catholic Catechism where there are a multitude of statements regarding salvation and that attainment thereof.

The church (paraphrasing) states that al those believing in one God and doing the wil of God to the best of their ability have the opportunity at salvation, including protestants, jews, muslims and the like.

I guess that leaves the Hindus, Bhuddists, animists, Taoists, Zoroastrians, and a multitude of others out. As for the monotheists, I suppose they don't need any means of grace such as baptism or the other sacraments.

We are not talking about muslim extremeists, nor hateful persons claiming Christ who die unrepentant etc...Since we do not know the state of a persons state of mind, body or soul at death, we cannot be the judge. We only know that every single person on this earth has been offered the reward Christ purchased for them, whether or not they take it is between them and God, and that is why the church evangelizes and lives out the faith to the best of their ability, in spite of the weeds amongst the wheat.

Is salvation a reward which we earn by our works or is it the gift of God's grace which is unmerited and unearned?

you know, if you type in the word "catechism" in gogle, and go to an easily navigated catholic catechism, you could put in the key word of your liking and look up the answer to your question(s) very easily and quickly.

peace, papist

I have, indeed, looked up the Catholic Catechism, and have found it very easy to navigate. In it I did not find anything concerning the salvation or the possibility thereof of Protestants or other non-Catholics, so I assume that there is no doctrine about that and that the papal pronouncements concerning the issue are just the opinion of one member of the Catholic Church. I did find several references to the statement that the Catholic Church alone possesses the fullness of the means of salvation, which appear to be centered upon the sever sacraments. In reading the Catechism it comes across clearly that the hope of salvation lies in the Catholic Church which alone possesses the fullness of the means of salvation. Would you agree with that?

Thanks.

 

[alphonsus12]

I have, indeed, looked up the Catholic Catechism, and have found it very easy to navigate. In it I did not find anything concerning the salvation or the possibility thereof of Protestants or other non-Catholics, so I assume that there is no doctrine about that and that the papal pronouncements concerning the issue are just the opinion of one member of the Catholic Church. I did find several references to the statement that the Catholic Church alone possesses the fullness of the means of salvation, which appear to be centered upon the sever sacraments. In reading the Catechism it comes across clearly that the hope of salvation lies in the Catholic Church which alone possesses the fullness of the means of salvation. Would you agree with that?

Thanks.

See Catechism of the Catholic Church 838-848

 

[Sphinx777]

See Catechism of the Catholic Church 838-848

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[bbbbbbb]

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Thanks Sphinx777 for posting the relevant sections which I had failed to find. Based on reading this, I conclude that ignorance is probably bliss because those who are ignorant stand a much higher probability of attaining salvation than Protestants who, not being ignorant of the Catholic Church, cannot attain salvation.

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

 

[Rhamiel]

Thanks Sphinx777 for posting the relevant sections which I had failed to find. Based on reading this, I conclude that ignorance is probably bliss because those who are ignorant stand a much higher probability of attaining salvation than Protestants who, not being ignorant of the Catholic Church, cannot attain salvation.

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

and now the debate moves to what is ignorance?
and that is a can of worms
is just hearing someone say that there is the Catholic Church enough?
what if you heard a lot of lies about the Church in your formative years?
what if you were raised by a poorly catechised Catholics? does that count?