Focused discussion--Are the Sabbaths of Col 2 weekly or yearly?

[Byfaithalone1]

The "obvious" answer is that God sanctified the sabbath.

For use by whom? That is the part of my question for which I seek Biblical confirmation.

Man, AKA mankind.

The former can be confirmed by Scripture, but the latter cannot.

It was "holy" AKA sanctified when it was made BFA.

Set aside for holy use by whom? What does the Bible say?

So, just like you would expect a "clean" coat to be returned to you if you gave me a "clean" coat to watch for you then you can obviously see that when God gave the commandment, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" it was just like your coat....."clean", "holy" or "sanctified" (take your pick) He expected it to be kept in the condition in which He gave it.

To be kept by whom? And did they keep it?

Didn't stop Him from laying out the instructions.

Were all of God's instructions given to all people for all of time?

Not "physically." You are most certainly spiritually.

Most certainly?

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God

Yes, I am a fellow citizen. That does not make me an Israelite. Please read Romans 11. I am a wild branch. I am not a native branch.

Christ definitely "filled the law full."

Did He fill the passover full? If so, do you continue to keep it?

Did He fill the feasts full? If so, do you continue to keep them?

Did He fill full the requirement for physical circumcision? If so, must you be circumcised physically?

Did He fill full the requirement for animal sacrifices? If so, do you offer them?

"All" has yet to be fulfilled.

In terms of Christ's act of atonement, what is left to be fulfilled?

If all has not been fulfilled, then we must conclude that not one jot or tittle has passed from the law.

If all has not been fulfilled, then we'd better offer animal sacrifices, keep the passover and get circumcised, for these are jots and tittles contained in the law.

Don't you hate it BFA to be trapped by you own circular reasoning?

A truly ironic statement in light of your apparent belief that (1) all has not been fulfilled and (2) jots and tittles known as "cermonial laws" have been fulfilled. Seems pretty circular to me.

If the Son has set me free, I am free indeed. I do not feel trapped.

BFA

 

[RND]

For use by whom? That is the part of my question for which I seek Biblical confirmation.

Asked and answered! Circular.....

The former can be confirmed by Scripture, but the latter cannot.

Only by those willingly to dismiss the obvious.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

anthropos - from anhr - aner 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:--certain, man.

Last I checked "mankind" was full of "human beings."

Set aside for holy use by whom? What does the Bible say?

Asked and answered! Circular.....

To be kept by whom? And did they keep it?

Asked and answered! Circular.....

Were all of God's instructions given to all people for all of time?

Of course.

Most certainly?

Well, maybe not. Hey look, if you don't feel you've been made part of God's household when you accepted Jesus Christ then what can I say?

You're on the outside looking in?

Yes, I am a fellow citizen. That does not make me an Israelite. Please read Romans 11. I am a wild branch. I am not a native branch.

Isn't the grafted in branch supposed to bear the same fruit as the natural branch? Who's the "branch?"

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Did He fill the passover full? If so, do you continue to keep it?

He was the Passover. Communion. Foot washing/bread/grape juice.

Did He fill the feasts full? If so, do you continue to keep them?

He was the feasts. Mark there observance on the calendar. This way I don't get caught up in man made traditions like "Ash Wednesday," "Lent," or "Easter."

Did He fill full the requirement for physical circumcision? If so, must you be circumcised physically?

What did I say? The "circumcision made without hands." Use your imagination.

Did He fill full the requirement for animal sacrifices? If so, do you offer them?

Yes and no. God is looking for something much deeper.....

1 Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

In terms of Christ's act of atonement, what is left to be fulfilled?

Acceptance.

If all has not been fulfilled, then we must conclude that not one jot or tittle has passed from the law.

That's right.

If all has not been fulfilled, then we'd better offer animal sacrifices, keep the passover and get circumcised, for these are jots and tittles contained in the law.

Yep, I agree. We should "all" do these things. Of course if you read the scriptures like I do it's the "Holy Spirit" that performs these things.

The "passover" has been replaced by communion.
The "circumcision" is done without hands.
The "sacrifices" are done "spiritually."

A truly ironic statement in light of your apparent belief that (1) all has not been fulfilled and (2) jots and tittles known as "cermonial laws" have been fulfilled. Seems pretty circular to me.

No doubt.

If the Son has set me free, I am free indeed. I do not feel trapped.

Yes you do. It's obvious. You can't see the way things are and you greatly miss the point.

Tell me BFA, when do you think Jesus might return? Close to the "Day of Atonement" when the "last trump" was to blow or another time?

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[emilylauren]

Right. So while in the land, dwelling with the Israelites the gentiles were required to "keep the sabbath." Why do you suppose God set it up this way BFA?

I believe God set it up this way because only Israel was delivered from Egypt. It is interesting to note that God cast judgement on other civilizations for sexual immorality, murder, theft, ect. BUT NEVER ONCE said that those nations had to keep the Saturday Sabbath. That was for Israel only.

Yep, I agree. We should "all" do these things. Of course if you read the scriptures like I do it's the "Holy Spirit" that performs these things.

The "passover" has been replaced by communion.
The "circumcision" is done without hands.
The "sacrifices" are done "spiritually."

And the "Sabbath" is done spiritually, through Jesus. Matthew 11:28
Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Just as we no longer need to physically circumcise, the Sabbath is no longer a day. It is our relationship with Jesus, where we lay down our physical burdens and the idea of "working for our salvation" and rest in Him.

 

[RND]

I believe God set it up this way because only Israel was delivered from Egypt. It is interesting to note that God cast judgement on other civilizations for sexual immorality, murder, theft, ect. BUT NEVER ONCE said that those nations had to keep the Saturday Sabbath. That was for Israel only.

Emily, who was that "mixed multitude" that came out of Egypt and what did they represent?

Exd 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle.

And the "Sabbath" is done spiritually, through Jesus. Matthew 11:28 Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Rest as in resting. Anapano. Not rest as in a sabbath.

Just as we no longer need to physically circumcise, the Sabbath is no longer a day.

Physical circumcision is not required for salvation, but it is a good idea for general health. We are still required to be "spiritually circumcised" so circumcision is still required.

It is our relationship with Jesus, where we lay down our physical burdens and the idea of "working for our salvation" and rest in Him.

Then where did "Sunday" come from if it's about out relationship with Jesus?

 

[emilylauren]

Then where did "Sunday" come from if it's about out relationship with Jesus?

I don't believe I ever mentioned anything about Sunday-- not every non-Saturday Sabbath keeping Christian believes that the holiness of Saturday was transferred to Sunday. As I stated before, I believe that "rest" is now found in Jesus.

Instead, Sunday is a day of celebration. It is the day that Jesus rose again so it makes sense that the followers of Jesus would meet with each other on a day that had special importance. More importantly, it had special importance only to them.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

EmilyLauren: I don't believe I ever mentioned anything about Sunday-- not every non-Saturday Sabbath keeping Christian believes that the holiness of Saturday was transferred to Sunday. As I stated before, I believe that "rest" is now found in Jesus.

Well said, EmilyLauren! And I certainly agree with you that Sunday is not "the new sabbath."

RND: Of course.

If God's instructions were given to all people for all of time, then I must assume that you offer daily animal sacrifices and a double sacrifice during the seventh day, wear tzitzit, are circumcised and keep all of the convocations described in Leviticus 23. Is that a safe assumption?

Well, maybe not. Hey look, if you don't feel you've been made part of God's household when you accepted Jesus Christ then what can I say?

I spoke to this already. I am a wild branch who was grafted into the tree/root. I am not a natural branch. See Romans 11.

Isn't the grafted in branch supposed to bear the same fruit as the natural branch?

Where does it say "same fruit?"

Who's the "branch?"

Which branch? The natural branches are Israelites who were not broken off due to disbelief. The wild branches are Gentiles who had the opportunity to be grafted in because natural branches were broken off.

He was the Passover. Communion. Foot washing/bread/grape juice.

Then you must believe that all has been accomplished, for not a jot or tittle can pass from the law until all is accomplished. The passover is most certainly a jot or tittle set out in the law.

He was the feasts.

Then you must believe that all has been accomplished, for not a jot or tittle can pass from the law until all is accomplished. The feasts were most certainly part of the jots and tittles set out in the law.

The "circumcision made without hands."

Then you must believe that all has been accomplished, for not a jot or tittle can pass from the law until all is accomplished. Physical circumcision was most certainly a jot or tittle set out in the law.

Yes and no.

Do you sacrifice animals?

Acceptance.

So, if all has not been accomplished, then you'd best be keeping ALL of the law!

Of course if you read the scriptures like I do it's the "Holy Spirit" that performs these things.

Then why advocate for the law? The ministry of the spirit is more glorious and lasting then the ministry that brings death (i.e. the letters engraved on stones).

The "passover" has been replaced by communion.

Then a jot or tittle has passed from the law.

The "circumcision" is done without hands.

Then a jot or tittle has passed from the law.

The "sacrifices" are done "spiritually."

Then a jot or tittle has passed from the law.

Tell me BFA, when do you think Jesus might return?

No man knows the day or the hour.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Will we be changed, or is it imperative that we reach a state of sinless perfection prior to that last trump? What does your denomination teach?

Well obviously the solemnity of the sabbath was changed to Sunday.

Obviously? Why is this obvious? I see no evidence of it.

Yes, and as long as there are those that continue to place "special importance" on the sabbath it will always remain.

I'm glad that it has special importance for you. Per Romans 14, I have no right to judge you for that.

BFA

 

[RND]

I don't believe I ever mentioned anything about Sunday-- not every non-Saturday Sabbath keeping Christian believes that the holiness of Saturday was transferred to Sunday. As I stated before, I believe that "rest" is now found in Jesus.

Well obviously the solemnity of the sabbath was changed to Sunday. Personally, I don't think most know the history behind Sunday and that's why Saturday services and sabbath observance is becoming much more accepted and increasingly popular.

Instead, Sunday is a day of celebration. It is the day that Jesus rose again so it makes sense that the followers of Jesus would meet with each other on a day that had special importance.

Yeah, I'd agree with that assessment. It would indeed "seem" that way. Of course you know there is nothing in the scriptures that would even remotely hint that this was true though.

More importantly, it had special importance only to them.

Yes, and as long as there are those that continue to place "special importance" on the sabbath it will always remain.

 

[RND]

If God's instructions were given to all people for all of time, then I must assume that you offer daily animal sacrifices and a double sacrifice during the seventh day, wear tzitzit, are circumcised and keep all of the convocations described in Leviticus 23. Is that a safe assumption?

Asked and answered. Circular....

I spoke to this already. I am a wild branch who was grafted into the tree/root. I am not a natural branch. See Romans 11.

The "wild" branch becomes like the natural, que no?

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root"

Where does it say "same fruit?"

Do you know much about husbandry BFA?

A wild "olive" tree will cease to produce "wild" olives when it is grafted into a natural olive tree.

A natural fruit can only be replicated and reproduced through grafting and not from seed. An olive tree is a fruit tree. Therefore only a "natural" fruit can be reproduced through "grafting."

An olive seed, or any other fruit producing tree, will not produce the exact same fruit as the parent tree from which the seed came. This is where "grafting" comes into play.

So you asked me, "Where does it say "same fruit?" Easy. If you like a particular type of apple, or pear, or peach, or avacodo or any other cultivar of fruit they all come from grafting, not seeds.

Hope that helps.

Which branch? The natural branches are Israelites who were not broken off due to disbelief. The wild branches are Gentiles who had the opportunity to be grafted in because natural branches were broken off.

Right. And when "grafted in" they will begin to produce fruits exactly like that of the host branch.

But if I graft a pear branch to a peach tree what do you think the pear branch will reproduce?

Then you must believe that all has been accomplished, for not a jot or tittle can pass from the law until all is accomplished. The passover is most certainly a jot or tittle set out in the law.

For all the things those things pointed too? Yes. But that doesn't mean all things have been accomplished. Jesus did say He's coming back.

Then you must believe that all has been accomplished, for not a jot or tittle can pass from the law until all is accomplished. The feasts were most certainly part of the jots and tittles set out in the law.

For all the things those things pointed too? Yes. But that doesn't mean all things have been accomplished. Jesus did say He's coming back.

Then you must believe that all has been accomplished, for not a jot or tittle can pass from the law until all is accomplished. Physical circumcision was most certainly a jot or tittle set out in the law.

For all the things those things pointed too? Yes. But that doesn't mean all things have been accomplished. Jesus did say He's coming back.

Do you sacrifice animals?

Do I need too?

So, if all has not been accomplished, then you'd best be keeping ALL of the law!

Thanks! Spoken like a true Pharisee! You have to keep the whole law while I don't have to keep any!

Then why advocate for the law? The ministry of the spirit is more glorious and lasting then the ministry that brings death (i.e. the letters engraved on stones).

Who's advocating for the law? I'm simply saying the sabbath is still the sabbath. Why would you equate that with me advocating people are still bound by the "old law?"

Then a jot or tittle has passed from the law.

Not at all.

Then a jot or tittle has passed from the law.

Not at all.

Then a jot or tittle has passed from the law.

Not at all.

No man knows the day or the hour.

No doubt, but then again, I didn't ask that did I. Let's just say it won't be Ash Wednesday!

Will we be changed, or is it imperative that we reach a state of sinless perfection prior to that last trump? What does your denomination teach?

Sour grapes BFA? Has enough of your circular logic handed back at you? I thought so. As usual, I'll leave you with the last word. When logic all fails, attack! If you can't beat 'em, attack!

 

[Byfaithalone1]

But that doesn't mean all things have been accomplished.

If all things have not been accomplished, then we need to keep every jot and tittle of the law. I know that you want to escape this inevitable fact, but it nonetheless remains.

Do I need too?

If all things have not been accomplished, then yes you'd better start offering animal sacrifices for they are a part of the jots and tittles set out in the law that must remain until all has been accomplished.

Spoken like a true Pharisee!

"Hello, Pot? Yeah, Kettle here."

You have to keep the whole law while I don't have to keep any!

Among the two of us, which advocates for law by stating that Gentiles are to observe the sabbath?

Why would you equate that with me advocating people are still bound by the "old law?"

On one hand you seem to claim that all has not been accomplished and therefore all men must keep the sabbath.

On the other hand, you seem to claim that all has been accomplished and that no man must keep the passover per the God-given instructions set out in the old covenant.

Please pick one, for it is impossible to claim that both are simultanously true.

Not at all.

No? According to Matthew 5, the jots and tittles are a package deal. Either all has been accomplished and all jots and tittles have passed, or all has not been accomplished and none of the jots and titles have passed. Which is it?

The "wild" branch becomes like the natural, que no?

Wild branches share in the same nourishing sap. Wild branches do not become natural branches.

Where does it say "same fruit?"

Indeed, I asked where it says "same fruit." Thanks for restating my question. Now, where can we find that phrase in Romans 11?

And when "grafted in" they will begin to produce fruits exactly like that of the host branch.

Romans 11 does not say that.

Sour grapes BFA?

Actually, I love grapes. Truly one of God's better creations.

Has enough of your circular logic handed back at you?

Well, it is nice to see you admit your circular reasoning.

BFA

 

[BobRyan]

I don't believe I ever mentioned anything about Sunday-- not every non-Saturday Sabbath keeping Christian believes that the holiness of Saturday was transferred to Sunday. As I stated before, I believe that "rest" is now found in Jesus.

Instead, Sunday is a day of celebration. It is the day that Jesus rose again so it makes sense that the followers of Jesus would meet with each other on a day that had special importance. More importantly, it had special importance only to them.

Christ our Creator's Holy Day CONTINUES to be THE holy Day of worship for "ALL MANKIND" in the New Heavens and New Earth as we see in Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath... shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to WORSHIP"

But IF we were to assume that "Christ is our rest" is the "reason" for ignoring Christ our Creator's Holy Day given as a memorial to HIS OWN Creative act in MAKING all life on planet earth -- BUT then we are to KEEP Sunday (on an innexplicable 7 DAY cycle having nothing to do with the resurrection) to "CELEBRATE" instead of "REST" -- your argument must then be "Christ is our rest but NOT our celebration so we actually worhship on the celebration day while totally ignoring Christ our Creator's Holy day of Rest" --

Can't believe people go for that one.

In Mark 7 Christ argues that man-made-traditions given in place of the commandments of God is a form of gross doctrinal error.

Again - I think what we have today is the WORDS of God being set aside and the commandments of men set in their place as IF this was the way to "honor God".

How sad.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Christ our Creator's Holy Day CONTINUES to be THE holy Day of worship for "ALL MANKIND"

Actually, the Scriptures do not teach that the sabbath was for all mankind, or that the seventh day was intended to be the only God-ordained day during which worship could occur.

Tell me, Bob, do you limit your worship to one day each week?

in the New Heavens and New Earth as we see in Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath... shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to WORSHIP"

In view of dead bodies. Hmmmm. Those who read Isaiah 66 will notice that your proof text is quite lacking.

But IF we were to assume that "Christ is our rest" is the "reason" for ignoring Christ our Creator's Holy Day given as a memorial to HIS OWN Creative act in MAKING all life on planet earth -- BUT then we are to KEEP Sunday (on an innexplicable 7 DAY cycle having nothing to do with the resurrection) to "CELEBRATE" instead of "REST" -- your argument must then be "Christ is our rest but NOT our celebration so we actually worhship on the celebration day while totally ignoring Christ our Creator's Holy day of Rest" --

Sad things happen when a person memorizes a standard defense of his belief system and blindly provides that same argument to every person without taking into account that which the other person actually believes. Perhaps you might point us to the person in this forum who believes that Sunday is the sabbath?

Can't believe people go for that one.

Can't believe you're stuck on an SDA defense that is way past it's expiration date.

In Mark 7 Christ argues that man-made-traditions given in place of the commandments of God is a form of gross doctrinal error.

Interesting that you raise Mark 7, especially in light of Verse 19.

Again - I think what we have today is the WORDS of God being set aside and the commandments of men set in their place as IF this was the way to "honor God".

One might wonder how you understand Romans 7 and Galatians 3-5. Or do you simply discard these passages?

How sad.

Indeed.

BFA

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, the Scriptures do not teach that the sabbath was for all mankind,

Let's see if that is true.

Gen 2:3 God makes the Sabbath Holy as His act on the 7th day of Creation week.

Ex 20:11 God argues that the Holy nature of HIS HOLY DAY is confirmed in that ONE Gen 2:3 act ALONE.

Mark 2:27 Christ argues for THE MAKING of the Sabbath in Gen 2:3 and refers to BOTH the MAKING of MANKIND and the MAKING of The Sabbath in that Genesis Creation account "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND and not MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath"

And then of course we have the glaringly obvious "From Sabbath to Sabbath.. shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" in the New Earth. Isaiah 66.

Ok - I would argue that your idea did not stand up to the test of scripture at that point.

in Christ,

bob

 

[Avonia]

Gen 2:3 God makes the Sabbath Holy as His act on the 7th day of Creation week.

Let's see if BFA accepts your premise. I'm a member of the SDA church and I don't accept your premise.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ our Creator's Holy Day CONTINUES to be THE holy Day of worship for "ALL MANKIND" in the New Heavens and New Earth as we see in Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath... shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to WORSHIP"

But IF we were to assume that "Christ is our rest" is the "reason" for ignoring Christ our Creator's Holy Day given as a memorial to HIS OWN Creative act in MAKING all life on planet earth -- BUT then we are to KEEP Sunday (on an innexplicable 7 DAY cycle having nothing to do with the resurrection) to "CELEBRATE" instead of "REST" -- your argument must then be "Christ is our rest but NOT our celebration so we actually worhship on the celebration day while totally ignoring Christ our Creator's Holy day of Rest" --

Can't believe people go for that one.

In Mark 7 Christ argues that man-made-traditions given in place of the commandments of God is a form of gross doctrinal error.

Again - I think what we have today is the WORDS of God being set aside and the commandments of men set in their place as IF this was the way to "honor God".

How sad.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

Can't believe you're stuck on an SDA defense that is way past it's expiration date.

I see. Well as it turns out - the Bible has stood the test of time - it was not written last week. So I am going to stick with the gospel statement above on this point for now.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Gen 2:3 God says He "MADE the 7th day HOLY AND blessed it" on the 7th day of Creation Week!

In Ex 20:11 He repeats the same argument "And God RESTED on the Seventh day THEREFORE GOD BLESSED the Sabbath day and MADE it Holy"

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND and not MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath"

I'm a member of the SDA church and I don't accept your premise.

I see.

Well I am going with the idea that the wording above is not as complex or confusing and you may have supposed.

I could be wrong. We will see.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[RND]

I'm a member of the SDA church and I don't accept your premise.

Based on? What is your major disagreement?

 

[Avonia]

Based on? What is your major disagreement?

I'm interested in the integrity of conversation. It's compromised when we insist that our conclusion - that Genesis 2:3 is talking about Sabbath - is the only reasonable conclusion.

And I find it equally distressing when people insist that it is a wholly unreasonable conclusion.

 

[BobRyan]

Exegeting the text would have been helpful just then -- if the idea is to show that the text does not mean what it appears to say.

Speaking of which -- have you read George Knight's book on the neutering of Adventism and the impact that watering down the Bible has had on mainline Protetantism's congregations ove the past 4 to 5 decades?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Avonia]

Speaking of which -- have you read George Knight's book on the neutering of Adventism and the impact that watering down the Bible has had on mainline Protetantism's congregations ove the past 4 to 5 decades?

I have not, but it sounds like you think he has something valuable to say. So I have a proposition for you. If you will read John Shelby Spong's "Jesus for the Non-Religious" I will read Knight's book (no skimming). And then we can share what we discovered in the reading of the book suggested by the other.

Do you accept?

 

[RND]

I'm interested in the integrity of conversation. It's compromised when we insist that our conclusion - that Genesis 2:3 is talking about Sabbath - is the only reasonable conclusion.

And I find it equally distressing when people insist that it is a wholly unreasonable conclusion.

So what's the answer to the dilemma?