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Exactly. This is the law that is referenced in verses 1-6.
BFA
So do you need a law written on stone tablets to tell you that worshiping other gods is wrong?
Do you need a law written on stone tablets to tell you that adultery is wrong?
Did Joseph?
No. I have died to the law written on stone tablets so that I may be joined with another.
No. I have died to the law written on stone tablets so that I may be joined with another.
Joseph did not have stone tablets.
Bob said -
The OT age after the fall of man - all worship was based in animal sacrifice. But that is not tru in Gen 2:3 when God BLESSED the Seventh day and MADE it holy.
BFA
This is an unsubstantiated claim. We have no Biblical basis
It would seem that you believe that the Bible teaches that there were two very different seventh-day sabbaths, one that included animal sacrifices and one that did not.
Bob said
God affirms in Ex 20:11 that Gen 2:3 fact alone is what makes the Sabbath holy
BFA
Interestingly, the word "alone"
We know from Deuteronomy 5 that the sabbath was not given to man solely as a reminder of creation
Bob said
Thus eliminating the idea that when MADE it was created with liturgy involving animal sacrifice
BFA
Actually that idea remains very much on the table.
Throughout the God-given instructions regarding sabbath observance, we find commands relating to animal sacrifices that are to be made on the seventh day. You seem to claim that there were two different sabbaths,
Bob said
In Ex 20 there is NO animal sacrifice specified for Sabbath. -- as written IN STONE.
BFA
We find this God-given requirement clearly articulated in Numbers 28, 1 Chronicle 23:31, 2 Chronicles 2:4, 2 Chronicles 31:3, Ezekiel 45:17 and Ezekiel 46.
in Gen 2:3 NO animal sacrifice for God's Holy Day.
BFA
In Genesis 2:3, there is no mention of a sabbath command at all.
That was my point. I didn't have to read the Ten Commandments to know adultery was wrong, or that stealing was wrong. Neither did Joseph. So obviously Joseph too had the TC written on his heart.
Until we read Gen 4 and find that Adam and Eve were not sacrificing animals in Eden.
Until we read Ex 20:11 "for in SIX DAYS the Lord MADE... and RESTED the seventh day THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath day AND made it holy"
No mention of Animal sacrifices of that Holy Day in Gen 2:3 AND no mention of them for that Holy Day in Ex 20:8-11!
No - the same day - but WORSHIP to God CHANGED in Gen 4 -- animal sacrifices that we see there - were added.
Agreed it comes from reading the text of Gen 20:8-11 and noticing all the inconvenient details
Deut 5 -- Moses is not chisling new stone.
The 4th commandment remained "unchanged" even as Moses notes in Deut 5.
As you note above - Moses in Deut 5 is ADDING an additional argument for remembering to Honor Christ the Creator's Holy day in Deut 5 that was specific to the Hebrews.
Really? Animal sacrifices in Gen 2?
Is that the imaginary part of Gen 2?
None of which were included "in stone" of the Ten Commanments as God wrote them in Ex 20.
You might want to sit down, for this may come as a shock to you. We are making the same point (or at least it appears that we are). Sin existed before the law was added and since the Seed came. It exists because of the ministry of the Spirit.
BFA
So then you agree Adam, Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Joseph, et al, observed the sabbath?
The "law" (Mosaic) came "because" of sin, not in spite of sin.
This would have obviously included the sabbath.
It's possible. One of his boys "sacrificed" lambs.That was quite a leap. How did we get from Point A to Point B?
You seem to suggest that, if I believe that sin existed before the law was added, then everything that is contained in the law must have also existed since the beginning of time. Let's see if that is in fact true.(1) Did Adam observe the passover?
Don't know. Might have been. Since a man that is circumcised doesn't pass that trait along to his children via DNA anything is possible with God.(2) Was Adam circumcised?
Instituted at the Exodus for a remembrance of the Exodus.(3) Did Adam observe the feast of unleavened bread?
Did he need too?(4) Did Adam wear tzitzit?
Doesn't say he did or didn't so we could easily say he may have.(5) Did Adam observe the day of atonement?
Is there any that says he didn't(6) Is there any Biblical confirmation that Adam did these things?
Well obviously it was observed in Exodus 16 before the words of the covenant where given.Indeed. The question is not whether the sabbath was added, but when the sabbath was added.
Right, the "Mosaic" law. You remember you did say "indeed" right?According to Galatians 3, the law was added 430 years after Abraham.
Consisting of a "mixed multitude." Exodus 12.According to Exodus 31, the sabbath was given to Israelites.
Still hung-up on the fact that it was given (originally) also as a sign of the creative powers of God? Why kick against the pricks BFA1? Maybe God just changed His mind!According to Deuteronomy 5, it was given to Israelites (at least in part) because God freed them from slavery.
It's possible.
Don't know. Might have been.
Instituted at the Exodus for a remembrance of the Exodus.
Did he need too?
Doesn't say he did or didn't so we could easily say he may have.
Is there any that says he didn't
Well obviously it was observed in Exodus 16 before the words of the covenant where given.
Covenant confirmed before of God in Christ. The "law" came after the "covenant."
NLT says: "This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise."
According to Exodus 31, the sabbath was given to Israelites.
Consisting of a "mixed multitude." Exodus 12.
Still hung-up on the fact that it was given (originally) also as a sign of the creative powers of God? Why kick against the pricks BFA1? Maybe God just changed His mind!
Is it really? Did the passover take place during or after Adam's life?
Really? Circumcision was given to Abraham. Was Abraham alive during or after Adam's life?
So, the answer is NO, correct? Why then would you conclude that--if I believe that sin existed before the law--I must also believe that every aspect of the law had been observed by all men since creation?
Nope. Because not every aspect of the law had been in place since creation.
Yes, that does seem to be your philosophy. However, without evidence that he did, I asser that we should make no definitive claims that he did. In the same way, we should make no claim that he observed a sabbath as there is no Biblical evidence to support such a claim.
Should we build a system of belief on an argument from silence?
Indeed, as were any number of other practices that did not begin at creation (such as the passover and circumcision)
Indeed. And Galatians 3:16 (the preceding verse) tells us which covenant Paul is describing. He is describing the covenant made with Abraham.
Yup. The law was added 430 years after Abraham. Thanks for confirming that point.
Actually, Exodus 31 says nothing about a mixed multitude. Is this an example of proof texting?
If the sabbath was given--in part--as a reminder of the exodus from Egypt, would this have meaning to a person who had not experienced the exodus from Egypt?
Changed His mind about what? According to Deteronomy 5, God delivered the children of Israel from Egypt and THEREFORE (i.e. because of the exodus) they were to keep the sabbath. You and I have already agreed that God intended a dual purpose for the sabbath. Why did He need to change His mind?
The observance of the passover included much more than animal sacrifice. It relates to the tenth plague in Egypt and to the Israelite's exodus from Egypt (i.e. think bitter herbs and unleavened bread). None of this would have been relevant during Adam's lifetime.In my mind? During. The fact that God had to sacrifice animals to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness seems to suggest the same thing that the passover was to do.
Do you believe that it did? If so, where is the Biblical basis?Circumcision was a sign unto Abraham. That's not to say that it never existed before Abraham.
Please review Exodus 34 and Leviticus 23.The "feast of unleavened bread" is part of the Mosaic law, not part of the Ten Commandments like the sabbath was.
Then you will certainly be willing to cite the text where God commanded Adam to set aside the seventh day.I would certainly disagree.
You missed the point. It is the Bible that is silent, not God. You are building a system of theology on an argument from silence. The Bible does not confirm your claims.Well, I'm of a mind that up until Adam and Eve sinned God spoke to them in the Garden about lots of things, so I don't see God as being "silent" in the Garden.
You are ignoring the reasons why such things were added. In understand the reasons why they were added, you can also understand when they were added.But that's just it. There is no proof one way or another that passover, circumcision or sabbath weren't observed before they were mentioned in the Bible.
No. It is a mutual agreement.And what is a "covenant?" It is an enforceable agreement.
Please read Deuteronomy 5:1-5.Are you saying there was "no law" prior to the Mosaic law?
In fact, it is quite explicit on that point. The law was added because of transgression 430 years after Abraham.Galatians 3 doesn't make that point.
That means that the Spirit is in fact capable of convicting a man with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment. You assume that the Holy Spirit is powerless without a written code.That means people were "transgressing" something before the "Mosaic law" was added.
The conviction of the Spirit, resulting in wrong doing.What was being "transgressed?"
Please state the reason for connecting Exodus 12 and Exodus 31.Exodus 12 does or did you miss that?
Because such person had not experienced the exodus from Egypt.Sure, why wouldn't it?
Your sarcasm does not change Biblical truths.I was being "sarcastic." Sorry you missed that.
[Unless it is your believe that Dwight L. Moody is an inspired author whose writings are on par with Scripture in terms of reliability and authority, then you are trying to take us down yet another rabbit trail.]Still don't want to take a stab at answering my "who said this" question?
Tall73 said:There is no mention of God telling Adam ANYTHING about the day in Eden. God rested on the 7th day of creation and blessed it because HE rested from His labors. No doubt He spent that holy day with His creation. No doubt there was wonderful fellowship with Adam and Eve on their first day of life. But there was no mystery about why it was holy-because God finished the creation.
Nor was there any command to commemorate it at that point every week. God rested, and the day on which He rested the 7th of creation, was blessed and holy.
BobRyan said:in Is 66:22-23 - in the New Earth - NO animal sacrifice mentioned as from "Sabbath to Sabbath" ALL mankind comes before God to Worship.
Byfaithalone said:Interestingly, the word "alone" is not found here. We know from Deuteronomy 5 that the sabbath was not given to man solely as a reminder of creation, but also as a reminder of the exodus from Egypt.
Then why it is assumed that he made holy every seventh day?
But I believe that earlier it was clarified that the word for Sabbath could also mean weekso could this passage not be read as saying Week to week and month to month God will be worshiped? As in every daynot just the Sabbath days?
And this reminder of the exodus from Egypt is BASED ON Gods own rest during creationso God did not just randomly choose a day for Israel, but gave them a day of significance to observe.
Both.I am asking that we consider one very specific topic in this thread--which sabbaths are being discussed in Col. 2:16?
I am not necessarily even interested in this thread in the overall interpretation of the passage, or the meaning of meat, drink etc. I am just wanting to try, if possible, to determine whether the sabbaths in col. 2 are weekly or yearly.
In the course of looking at that aspect there may be some interpretive work of the passage, context, etc., and that is fine. But please keep the topic on track. The main goal is to see what kind of Sabbath is indicated.
This is not a general debate about whether the Sabbath is to be kept or not. Save that for another thread please.
RND: Because He said He did?
This statement makes no sense to me. Can you help me understand it?RND: If it wasn't holy already there would be absolutely no need to "keep" it holy, right?
You are referring to those who were dwelling with the Israelites. There is no Biblical command that Gentiles who have no relationship with Israelites were to keep the sabbath.RND: And yet, even the gentiles were required to observe it and stop working.
Absolutely, He did. There's no question about that. Thanks for noting the dual purpose of the sabbath.EmilyLauren: And this reminder of the exodus from Egypt is BASED ON God’s own rest during creation—so God did not just randomly choose a day for Israel, but gave them a day of significance to observe.
This statement makes no sense to me. Can you help me understand it?
Yes. However keep in mind that the sabbath was made "holy" when it was "sanctified" in Genesis 2.(1) It was holy already. God had given it to the Israelites in Exodus 16.
Be serious BFA. If you tell your kid to "keep" his/her room clean at some point one must assume it was once clean, right?(2) The word "keep" makes no allusion to what had been done previously. If I were to come to you and ask you to keep my coat in your closet, there is no allusion to anything that had happened before.
Sure, I understand that. Of course, I made no such argument - you did. But just for fun if I "forgot" to call you at 7:00pm would you be happy or sad?(3) The word "remember" makes no allusion to what had been done previously. If I were to come to you and ask you to remember to call me at 7:00 p.m., my request would have nothing to do with what had been done previously.
Right. So while in the land, dwelling with the Israelites the gentiles were required to "keep the sabbath." Why do you suppose God set it up this way BFA?You are referring to those who were dwelling with the Israelites. There is no Biblical command that Gentiles who have no relationship with Israelites were to keep the sabbath.
I never NOT recognized the dual reasons for the sabbath. It all comes down to recognizing and obeying God's power.Absolutely, He did. There's no question about that. Thanks for noting the dual purpose of the sabbath.
BFA1, no need to restate the obvious.
However keep in mind that the sabbath was made "holy" when it was "sanctified" in Genesis 2.
That means the day was set aside and made holy by God.
Be serious BFA. If you tell your kid to "keep" his/her room clean at some point one must assume it was once clean, right?
To assume it wasn't holy before the commandment was given is to deny the obvious.
BTW, I notice in your allegory you made no mention as to whether your coat that you gave me to put in my closet was clean or dirty. If I kept it in my closet I would "keep" in in whatever state you gave to to me, clean or dirty. Qadash is simply another word for "clean." So, I'm going to assume if you gave me a "clean" coat to put in my closet you'd want it back in the same "clean" condition in which you gave it to me, right?
Sure, I understand that. Of course, I made no such argument - you did. But just for fun if I "forgot" to call you at 7:00pm would you be happy or sad?
So while in the land, dwelling with the Israelites the gentiles were required to "keep the sabbath."
Why do you suppose God set it up this way BFA?
It all comes down to recognizing and obeying God's power.
If it was obvious, I wouldn't have asked the question.
The "obvious" answer is that God sanctified the sabbath. God sanctified the sabbath that means man couldn't and did not need to.The relevant question is whether is was sanctified for holy use by Adam.
Man, AKA mankind.Set aside for whom? What does the Bible say?
But you'd expect it to be "clean" from then on right?Yes, let's be serious. If I go in and clean my child's room and, while cleaning it, tell him that he must keep it clean thereafter, I make no reference to a past event.
It was "holy" AKA sanctified when it was made BFA. It's still that way. God doesn't change, men do.We've already agreed that it was holy as of Exodus 16. This is a moot point.
Right. So, just like you would expect a "clean" coat to be returned to you if you gave me a "clean" coat to watch for you then you can obviously see that when God gave the commandment, "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" it was just like your coat....."clean", "holy" or "sanctified" (take your pick) He expected it to be kept in the condition in which He gave it.The record of Israel is clear. They did a poor job of keeping the sabbath. One would be hard pressed to make the claim that Israel was even able to keep the law in the same condition it was given to them (much less to improve on it by cleaning it up and returning it to the Master in a better condition in which it was given to them). Whether the coat was clean or dirty when God gave it to them (and of course we would agree that it was clean), Israel returned it to God dirty.
Right. Didn't stop Him from laying out the instructions. It'd be the same as giving the car keys to your Corvette Z06 to your 16 year-old for the first time and saying, "don't speed!" You just know they're gonna.If I was God, I would hardly be surprised. Throughout the Old Testament, Israel repeatedly failed to call. Clearly, God was displeased about that.
Not "physically." You are most certainly spiritually.Note that I am not in the land, dwelling with Israelites.
I thought maybe you'd say something like to provide the other nations instruction about the God of Abraham, Issaac and Jacob and all He did for the COI.To keep the peace.
Christ definitely "filled the law full."Indeed. Either He came to fulfill as He said that He did, and He is able to fulfill as He indicated He was, or we conclude that He isn't what He said He was and cannot do what He said He did.
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