Fixing a hole where the rain gets in ...

[ozso]

Do you really think that "faith alone" without any good works, without any sign of conversion to Christ, without the fruit of the Spirit, is the panacea that saves you totally independent of any graces God works in your life?

By the way The Catechism of the Catholic Church is published by the Vatican. so paragraphs 818 and 819 were written by people in the Vatican under the supervision of Cardinal Ratzinger who later became Pope Benedict XVI.

The Protestant Reformation was a call back to biblical Christianity, to acknowledge that the authority on all matters, both for the Church and believers, is God's Word alone and that sinful man is reconciled with God by faith in Christ alone.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The default is Scripture. No denomination.

That proposition is in error.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In fairness, many Christians have the same attitude. It's rare a Christian denomination sees their church as just one of many equally valid choices.

is it you view that the "good" thief's defence the Lord from false and scurrilous accusations is not a good work?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Protestant Reformation was a call back to biblical Christianity

So some say, but it was not.

to acknowledge that the authority on all matters, both for the Church and believers, is God's Word alone

That is incorrect too, if by "The Word" you mean what Protestants call holy scriptures - the 66 books one finds in the NKJV or NASB - it is in error because

• the subset of Holy Scripture that Protestants accept is insufficient for a full reception of all that God has taught in the holy scriptures,
• the Holy Scriptures must be interpreted and Protestant leaders failed to produce agreed interpretations instead offering many different interpretations that in various ways contradict one another
• the Holy Scriptures teach that it is the Church that is the pillar and ground of the truth because the Church is the body of Christ while the Holy Scriptures are a witness (in writing) of many, but not all, of the things that Christ did and said
• and God in the person of the Lord, Jesus Christ, is The Authority on all things while the scriptures have authority that is derived from and subordinate to the authority of God

and that sinful man is reconciled with God by faith in Christ alone.

That is also incorrect in that it is not faith that reconciles mankind to God because it is Jesus Christ who does that. Christ is the saviour, faith is not the saviour.

Nevertheless, despite the many errors taught by the many varieties of protestant, the Catholic Church does acknowledge the presence of God's saving graces among protestants, as the paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic quoted in the Original Post say.

 

[ozso]

So some say, but it was not.

That is incorrect too, you know, if by "The Word" you mean what Protestants call holy scriptures - the 66 books one finds in the NKJV or NASB - it is in error because

• the subset of Holy Scripture that Protestants accept is insufficient
• the Holy Scriptures must be interpreted and Protestant leaders failed to produce agreed interpretations
• the Holy Scriptures teach that it is the Church that is the pillar and ground of the truth because the Church is the body of Christ while the Holy Scriptures are a witness (in writing) of the things that Christ did and said
• and God in the person of the Lord, Jesus Christ, is The Authority on all things.

That is also incorrect in that it is not faith that reconciles mankind to God because it is Jesus Christ who does that. Christ is the saviour, faith is not the saviour.

Nevertheless, despite the many errors taught by the many varieties of protestant, the Catholic Church does acknowledge the presence of God's saving graces among protestants, as the paragraphs from the Catechism of the Catholic quoted in the Original Post say.

I heard Catholic apologist Tim Staples say that it's much harder for a Protestant to get saved.

 

[FireDragon76]

is it you view that the "good" thief's defence the Lord from false and scurrilous accusations is not a good work?

No. Especially not in the sense Protestants understand the term.

 

[FireDragon76]

The default is Scripture. No denomination.

In reality, confessionalism is the norm among Protestants, even if that confession is unspoken.

 

[Markie Boy]

There are two points. The first would be which statements of the Council of Florence were approved by the pope and were then considered infallible. The second point is the question of who is saved. Jesus did not leave us a numbered and complete set of theological truths. If He had there would be no purpose for theologians. From what was passed down from Jesus the Catholic Church can come to a greater understanding over the centuries. What happens at the moment of death no one knows. Does the Holy Spirit inform the person of the truth at that moment? What is clear is that if a person, at the final Judgment, knows the truth about Jesus and His Church and deliberately rejects it that person is not saved. It is also clear Jesus stresses His mercy.

It's a lot bigger than "which statements of Florence are approved as infallible" - there is Unam Sanctam by Pope Boniface the 8th - which meets all the criteria for an infallible statement, and that one is clear, plus it was just the general teaching of the RCC for probably 1000 years or so, if you are not Catholic you are going to hell.

Shoot - just ask the baby boomers, they still talk about how "when I was a kid if you weren't Catholic you were going to hell".

I think the post was started with good intentions - it's a bridge building spirit I see.

But here are the problems:

1. As far as infallibility - there actually is no agreed upon list of infallible statements - which means even Catholics argue over it. You can't fault a protestant for not agreeing with something Catholics don't even agree on.

2. What would really "Fix a leak" would be the Catholic Church to say "oops, we were wrong about protestants not being saved". Instead they say "we have never erred" - yet they have contradictory teaching between the past and today. It's like changing your mind, and pretending you never said the other thing, or twisting it's wording to try and make them fit.

If the Catholic Church would say "Sorry, we were wrong", that would start to fix the leak.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I heard Catholic apologist Tim Staples say that it's much harder for a Protestant to get saved.

Do you believe him?
I do not, but it is only speculation on my part to disagree with him.
Do you wonder if you are safe in your current religious beliefs?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No. Especially not in the sense Protestants understand the term.

Okay, I was protestant once and when I was I used to think of that thief's words as brave in a sense, a good and manly defence of the Lord when he himself was being executed for crimes that he knew deserved death.

And one of those robbers who were hanged blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing; thou art under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly: for we receive the due reward of our deeds. But this man hath done no evil. And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.​

Luke 23:39-43 DRB
It looks as if Jesus recognised the penetrant thief's words as something worthy of reward.

 

[FireDragon76]

Okay, I was protestant once and when I was I used to think of that thief's words as brave in a sense, a good and manly defence of the Lord when he himself was being executed for crimes that he knew deserved death.

And one of those robbers who were hanged blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing; thou art under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly: for we receive the due reward of our deeds. But this man hath done no evil. And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.​

Luke 23:39-43 DRB
It looks as if Jesus recognised the penetrant thief's words as something worthy of reward.

It couldn't have been simply an act of mercy in response to his faith? I just don't see a reward here, at least nothing to justify Roman Catholic notions of a condignity of merits.

 

[ozso]

Do you believe him?

I do not, but it is only speculation on my part to disagree with him.

I just took note of what he said. I think he's quite keen on persuading conversion to Catholicism.

Do you wonder if you are safe in your current religious beliefs?

Oh I have occasional inklings of "what if I'm wrong" doubts. But my faith in Christ has always been strong. I've enjoyed the conversations I've had with Catholics regarding the core tenants of soteriology.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's a lot bigger than "which statements of Florence are approved as infallible" - there is Unam Sanctam by Pope Boniface the 8th - which meets all the criteria for an infallible statement, and that one is clear, plus it was just the general teaching of the RCC for probably 1000 years or so, if you are not Catholic you are going to hell.

Shoot - just ask the baby boomers, they still talk about how "when I was a kid if you weren't Catholic you were going to hell".

I think the post was started with good intentions - it's a bridge building spirit I see.

But here are the problems:

1. As far as infallibility - there actually is no agreed upon list of infallible statements - which means even Catholics argue over it. You can't fault a protestant for not agreeing with something Catholics don't even agree on.

2. What would really "Fix a leak" would be the Catholic Church to say "oops, we were wrong about protestants not being saved". Instead they say "we have never erred" - yet they have contradictory teaching between the past and today. It's like changing your mind, and pretending you never said the other thing, or twisting it's wording to try and make them fit.

If the Catholic Church would say "Sorry, we were wrong", that would start to fix the leak.

I don't think Catholics uniformly believed Protestants were going to Hell before Vatican II. There were a variety of opinions.

It isn't a widely known fact among many American Evangelicals, but some Protestants in the Pietist movement had contacts with Catholics, and Catholic devotional literature was widely read by them. Especially those of the Quietists like Fenelon or Madame Guyon. Count Zizendorf, the reformer of the Moravians, was part of a Christian fraternity with a Catholic archbishop.

 

[Markie Boy]

I believe it. And many protestants made the same error, and to this day. My former baptist church almost assumes if someone is Catholic they are not "saved". It's downright annoying.

I know many beautiful Christians that are Catholic.

And the local protestant churches are so disconnected from history. It's hard to find one that's not of the "Left Behind Series" pre-trib rapture.

 

[ozso]

I believe it. And many protestants made the same error, and to this day. My former baptist church almost assumes if someone is Catholic they are not "saved". It's downright annoying.

I know many beautiful Christians that are Catholic.

And the local protestant churches are so disconnected from history. It's hard to find one that's not of the "Left Behind Series" pre-trib rapture.

I think it's mainly the notion that works based performance based salvation is taught. They even say that of Billy Graham too, because they think that's what he taught as well.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It couldn't have been simply an act of mercy in response to his faith? I just don't see a reward here, at least nothing to justify Roman Catholic notions of a condignity of merits.

The penitent thief's faith was only discovered when he spoke to defend Jesus; his faith was fruitful in good works; in his case the good works he could do were limited and he did what he could. But he was not "saved" because he did a good work, he was saved because Jesus saved him.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I just took note of what he said. I think he's quite keen on persuading conversion to Catholicism.

I agree, he is enthusiastic in his efforts to "convert" protestants.

It is important to note that in Catholic teaching a protestant who becomes a Catholic is not a convert, at least not in the sense of one who accepts Jesus Christ as saviour when he/she becomes a Catholic. Catholic teaching is that protestants who become Catholics are "coming home", by which we mean that a "separated brother/sister" has returned to their home to be received with warmth as a brother/sister who has been away.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Oh I have occasional inklings of "what if I'm wrong" doubts. But my faith in Christ has always been strong. I've enjoyed the conversations I've had with Catholics regarding the core tenants of soteriology.

It is a blessing when brethren walk in harmony.

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree, he is enthusiastic in his efforts to "convert" protestants.

It is important to note that in Catholic teaching a protestant who becomes a Catholic is not a convert, at least no in the sense of one who accepts Jesus Christ as saviour when he/she becomes a Catholic. Catholic teaching is that protestants who become Catholics are "coming home", by which we mean that a "separated brother/sister" has returned to their home to be received with warmth as a brother/sister who has been away.

I know Catholics probably think that's a loving to say, but it sounds belittling.

I would hope that Catholics do not generally consider proselytism to be ethical behavior. I know Protestant churches I affiliate with do not consider proselytism of Catholics to be ethical.

I can say from experience that proselytism is quite damaging spiritually. People that proselytize frequently misrepresent their religion and aren't honest about counting the cost. Instead of speaking truthfully about their faith, a proselytist tries to do a hard sell on their religion through inducements and misrepresentation.

 

[ozso]

I agree, he is enthusiastic in his efforts to "convert" protestants.

The time I listened to him it was during a debate he had with Steve Gregg (easily found on YouTube). So he was probably being extra emphatic.

It is important to note that in Catholic teaching a protestant who becomes a Catholic is not a convert, at least no in the sense of one who accepts Jesus Christ as saviour when he/she becomes a Catholic. Catholic teaching is that protestants who become Catholics are "coming home", by which we mean that a "separated brother/sister" has returned to their home to be received with warmth as a brother/sister who has been away.

I certainly understand that.