Fixing a hole where the rain gets in ...

[Mark Quayle]

Saint Paul is the one who said that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. If that disturbs you then your are disturbed by the teaching of Christ in the holy scriptures.

These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.​

1 Timothy 3:14-16 DRB

Why would it disturb me? What disturbs me is people taking that to mean that the Catholic Church is of similar authority as the Scriptures.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In other words, to you, the church is of equal authority with Scripture, if not of more authority, it being "the pillar and ground of truth"?

Saint Paul is the one who said that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. If that disturbs you then your are disturbed by the teaching of Christ in the holy scriptures.
These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.1 Timothy 3:14-16 DRB

Why would it disturb me? What disturbs me is people taking that to mean that the Catholic Church is of similar authority as the Scriptures.

The context makes it obvious why it looks like it disturbs you; it's because you did an "in other words" spin on one of my posts and the spin depended on it being "the pillar and ground of truth"? which is what the scriptures call the Church. That I identify the Church with the Catholic Church seems to be upsetting to you if one is to judge by the things you write.

Now, it ought to be added by me that I identify the Church more broadly than the Catholic Church alone, many Christians are separated from the Catholic Church through no fault of their own, they too are in the Church but in a slightly different way. But some in various threads have indicated that referring to Protestants as "separated brethren" is to their perception condescending and I guess insulting too. You may be among those who feel that way, I leave it for you to say.

PS: see the original post, for what I think about Christians outside the Catholic Church.

 

[Diamond7]

are not Christians and are heading for hell.

As the story goes, there will be three surprises when we get to Heaven. We will be surprised by the people who made it, but we never thought would be there. Then we will be surprised by the people we were sure would make it and did not. The biggest surprise of all is that somehow we are there and we made it.

Corrie Tan Boon tells a story about the meanest guard in the concentration camp when was in with her sister. He told her that he knew God forgave him, but did she? Her answer was NO she did not. Over time God did a work in her heart and she did forgive him.

Just as individuals seek forgiveness from God for their own sins and shortcomings, they should also extend forgiveness to others who have wronged them.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As the story goes, there will be three surprises when we get to Heaven. We will be surprised by the people who made it, but we never thought would be there. Then we will be surprised by the people we were sure would make it and did not. The biggest surprise of all is that somehow we are there and we made it.

Corrie Tan Boon tells a story about the meanest guard in the concentration camp when was in with her sister. He told her that he knew God forgave him, but did she? Her answer was NO she did not. Over time God did a work in her heart and she did forgive him.

Just as individuals seek forgiveness from God for their own sins and shortcomings, they should also extend forgiveness to others who have wronged them.

One hopes that God received both of them, Corrie and the mean-guard, into heaven. One does not know it is so for either, but one hopes.

 

[Diamond7]

One hopes that God received both of them, Corrie and the mean-guard, into heaven. One does not know it is so for either, but one hopes.

We can even hope that there is a heaven. If Corrie did not make it, then none of us have a chance.

 

[Diamond7]

What disturbs me is people taking that to mean that the Catholic Church is of similar authority as the Scriptures.

What is the reason for your hope? Why do you think Scripture has authority?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

What is the reason for your hope? Why do you think Scripture has authority?

You've raised a useful question.

Why does any Christian grant authority in his life to what is written in the sacred scriptures and why does any Christian accept as sacred scripture the writings, and only the writings, he has received from other Christians who came into the faith before him?

 

[Diamond7]

Why does any Christian grant authority in his life to what is written in the sacred scriptures

There is a story about an old women that died and they were cleaning out her estate. They came across her Bible and when they opened it they saw a lot of scriptures with TTT next to them. At first they did not now what that means. They found out it means Test Tried & Found True.

You put the peddle to the metal and the rubber to the road and put it to the test to see if it works.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There is a story about an old women that died and they were cleaning out her estate. They came across her Bible and when they opened it they saw a lot of scriptures with TTT next to them. At first they did not now what that means. They found out it means Test Tried & Found True.

You put the peddle to the metal and the rubber to the road and put it to the test to see if it works.

Can TTT apply to a community?

 

[Mark Quayle]

What is the reason for your hope? Why do you think Scripture has authority?

God himself is the reason for my hope. God says Scripture has authority, it being the word of God.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

God himself is the reason for my hope. God says Scripture has authority, it being the word of God.

But you rely on scripture for what you know of God, so is the proposition not circular?

 

[Diamond7]

But you rely on scripture for what you know of God,

Scriptures are revelation knowledge that people have received. We still have our own dreams and revelations. We have the Holy Spirit and the angels. So there is a lot more than just the testimony of those who give us the Bible.

 

[Diamond7]

Can TTT apply to a community?

It can apply to a community of believers if we see miracles and healings. Even sometimes there is a very thin line between being sick and having a nervous condition. We need to go beyond doctors, the power of suggestion and the placebo effect to claim a miracle from God.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Scriptures are revelation knowledge that people have received. We still have our own dreams and revelations. We have the Holy Spirit and the angels. So there is a lot more than just the testimony of those who give us the Bible.

I see.

The pope has the Holy Spirit, so does the curia in Rome, they receive wisdom from God which enables them to properly interpret the holy scriptures and holy Tradition. Sounds like you'd fit into the Catholic Church just fine.

 

[Diamond7]

Sounds like you'd fit into the Catholic Church just fine.

I have no problem with the Catholic Church. It would do people a lot of good to follow the catechism.

 

[Aaron112]

"'You nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many other similar things.'" (Mark 7:13)

I am looking for a people, or persons, or just a person, daily, who does not do this,
or who wants to be free of this,
who wants and chooses willingly and with their whole heart to serve Christ Jesus in perfect purity and gentleness and true wisdom as Yahweh Determines.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have no problem with the Catholic Church. It would do people a lot of good to follow the catechism.

Agreed about the Catechism.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But you rely on scripture for what you know of God, so is the proposition not circular?

Yes, of course it is circular. It is not entirely of logic that I trust in God and his word, but of faith, and that, not of myself —it is the gift of God.

Funny thing is, in the final analysis, for anything you believe, in the end it is circular to believe in it. Why do you believe your eyes and your experience and your reasoning? Why do you trust your thoughts?

And I find the notion that God should exist, to be more reasonable than even that I should exist —God being, by definition, uncaused— yet, apparently, here I am, so God certainly is.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, of course it is circular. It is not entirely of logic that I trust in God and his word, but of faith, and that, not of myself —it is the gift of God.

Yes, some people say that, but that too is circular - just self affirming stuff.

Funny thing is, in the final analysis, for anything you believe, in the end it is circular to believe in it.

That isn't really true.

Why do you believe your eyes and your experience and your reasoning? Why do you trust your thoughts?

One ought to mistrust them unless others confirm them and there is some evidence supportive of them.

And I find the notion that God should exist, to be more reasonable than even that I should exist —God being, by definition, uncaused— yet, apparently, here I am, so God certainly is.

Sounds vaguely like something a less articulate version of Anselm might have say.

 

[Fervent]

That isn't really true.

Pretty close to true, eventually things come down to either a circular argument or a dogmattic argument, since the only possible ways to argue are either circular, dogmatic, or regressive and eventually you run out of regressive arguments. It's an unsolved problem in epistemology known as Munchaussen's trilemma.