finite punishment for finite sin

[smithed64]

^ This also. There is a difference between "sin" and "sins". "Sins" are particular transgressions of God's law which are indeed finite. But "sin" is a condition of the heart in which we hate God, refuse to acknowledge him as God, and refuse to submit to him. If there is no repentance then this inner rebellion persists infinitely.

The only difference between 'sin' and 'sins' is the plural.
Any time you sin, you rebel against God.
The definition of sin is in the Bible.

1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And when we sin, it's directly against God.

 

[mercyfollowsme]

noone has made the case for finite sin, as being forgiven with finite atonement in the OT, should in the NT have infinite punishment. Is this case closed?

 

[toLiJC]

Hi

Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin. Its not like the Bible mentions infinite punishment, only that time in hell is everlasting. Can the 2 be separated?

Or can you get out of hell like some of those people who have near death experiences and go to hell first?

unfortunately, the punishment is constant for every soul due to the cyclic nature of eternity, i.e. every soul will have the destiny/fate of any other in the course of the time's infinity, that is why it doesn't pay to cause harm/suffering to any soul

Blessings

 

[mercyfollowsme]

unfortunately, the punishment is constant for every soul due to the cyclic nature of eternity, i.e. every soul will have the destiny/fate of any other in the course of the time's infinity, that is why it doesn't pay to cause harm/suffering to any soul

Blessings

and those who neither chose for or against Christ? or were incapable of such a choice?

 

[toLiJC]

and those who neither chose for or against Christ? or were incapable of such a choice?

the righteous ones will again be righteous in the next eternity, and will thus again have destinies of righteous then, and sooner or later every soul of the universe will be righteous and (will) have a destiny of righteous for millions of consecutive eternities:

Revelation 22:5-11 "they will reign forever and ever... let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

but, unfortunately, the righteous ones will also be in the place of every unrighteous person/soul after the time of each of them to be righteous is over respectively:

Ecclesiastes 9:2-3 "It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear. This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men."

the good news is that we can at least try not to cause harm/suffering to our neighbor as well as trying to help the ones who need help thus shortening/reducing the torments for all

Blessings

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

and those who neither chose for or against Christ? or were incapable of such a choice?

What does JESUS SAY ?
There is no inbetween: "You are either for ME or against ME"
Since HE IS GOD, HE KNOWS.

 

[BobRyan]

I think the eternal nature of hell is tied up with the fact that people don't stop sinning. So in hell if in fact one pays 60 or so years of sinning on earth by 60 years of torment in hell, what about any additional sins they committed during those 60 years of torment?

It's an unending cycle in hell. Sin and torment, more sin, more torment.

then God would be authoring sin and would be rejecting his own Matthew 10:28 statement along with denying Ezekiel 18:4

 

[Deadworm]

Hi

Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin. Its not like the Bible mentions infinite punishment, only that time in hell is everlasting. Can the 2 be separated?

Or can you get out of hell like some of those people who have near death experiences and go to hell first?

I will just make 3 of the many, many biblical points that could be made in favor of finite punishment in Hell:
(1) Jesus uses the imagery of "few stripes" and "many stripes" to describe postmortem punishment. The terms "many" and "few" imply a limit after which ultimate release becomes possible (Luke 12:47-48).

(2) Jesus conceives of sin as "debt" (Matthew 6:12) and compares Hell to a debtor's prison and that implies the possibility of the debt being paid, thus securing ultimate release (Matthew 18:34-35). Notice the implication here that the sinner remains in torment only until the debt is paid; the text never claims that the debt can't be paid.

(3) A blizzard of NT texts implies the possibility of release from Hell. For example, the Gospel is preached to the wicked dead in "prison" (- Hell), and this implies the responsibility of a proper response to the preaching and hence of release from Hell (1 Peter 3:19; 4:6). Then there is the lost practice of proxy baptism for the unsaved dead, a proxy baptism that is presented as part of the process by which God becomes "all in all" or "everything to everyone" (1 Corinthians 15:28-29). Such texts could be multiplied.

 

[BobRyan]

(2) Jesus conceives of sin as "debt" (Matthew 6:12) and compares Hell to a debtor's prison and that implies the possibility of the debt being paid, thus securing ultimate release (Matthew 18:34-35). Notice the implication here that the sinner remains in torment only until the debt is paid; the text never claims that the debt can't be paid.
.

True -- it says "paid in full"

But it does not say the wicked survive it.

Once the debt of torment is paid - the Matt 10:28 "destroy both body and soul in fiery hell" ending shows up in that "second death" as John describes it in Rev 20

 

[Deadworm]

[BobRyan: "True -- it says "paid in full." But it does not say the wicked survive it.

Yes it does; reread Matthew 18:34-35. The wicked suffer torment only until "they should pay all their debt." That phrase implies a positive outcome after the debt is paid.

Bob Ryan: "Once the debt of torment is paid - the Matt 10:28 "destroy both body and soul in fiery hell" ending shows up in that "second death" as John describes it in Rev 20."

No, Matthew 10:28 talks about what is possible for Satan to do if people refuse to respond, not what he actually does.
You conveniently ignore my post's points about proxy baptism for the unsaved dead and preaching to the wicked dead.

As for "the 2nd death," you overlook 2 points:
(1) John talks about the "first resurrection" (20:6). an expression that implies a 2nd resurrection. But John never explains when the 2nd resurrection occurs. There are 2 clues to the answer: (1) John has a vision of everyone in the whole universe worshiping God and Christ in heaven (Revelation 5:13), where "under the earth" is a reference to the damned in Hades. (2) Then John has a vison of an eternally open gate to the New Jerusalem which hovers in the air (21:25). He identifies the wicked dead as those "outside the gate" (22:15). This image allows the possibility of the wicked dead paying their debt and entering Heaven or the New Jerusalem. This image in turn gives meaning to God's frequently expressed wish to save everyone and to Paul's claim that God "is the Savior of all people, especially (i.e. more immediately) of those who believe" (1 Timothy 4:10).

 

[mmksparbud]

[BobRyan: "True -- it says "paid in full." But it does not say the wicked survive it.

Yes it does; reread Matthew 18:34-35. The wicked suffer torment only until "they should pay all their debt." That phrase implies a positive outcome after the debt is paid.

Bob Ryan: "Once the debt of torment is paid - the Matt 10:28 "destroy both body and soul in fiery hell" ending shows up in that "second death" as John describes it in Rev 20."

No, Matthew 10:28 talks about what is possible for Satan to do if people refuse to respond, not what he actually does.
You conveniently ignore my post's points about proxy baptism for the unsaved dead and preaching to the wicked dead.

As for "the 2nd death," you overlook 2 points:
(1) John talks about the "first resurrection" (20:6). an expression that implies a 2nd resurrection. But John never explains when the 2nd resurrection occurs. There are 2 clues to the answer: (1) John has a vision of everyone in the whole universe worshiping God and Christ in heaven (Revelation 5:13), where "under the earth" is a reference to the damned in Hades. (2) Then John has a vison of an eternally open gate to the New Jerusalem which hovers in the air (21:25). He identifies the wicked dead as those "outside the gate" (22:15). This image allows the possibility of the wicked dead paying their debt and entering Heaven or the New Jerusalem. This image in turn gives meaning to God's frequently expressed wish to save everyone and to Paul's claim that God "is the Savior of all people, especially (i.e. more immediately) of those who believe" (1 Timothy 4:10).

And this totally ignores the day of atonement and it's meaning. See post #62.

 

[BobRyan]

[BobRyan: "True -- it says "paid in full." But it does not say the wicked survive it.

Yes it does; reread Matthew 18:34-35. The wicked suffer torment only until "they should pay all their debt." That phrase implies a positive outcome after the debt is paid.

Well then - you ignored a huge detail in Matt 18.

The whole problem that the debtor had - was that he owed a debt that cannot be paid off in ten life times.

There is no "and he lived happily ever after" in Matt 18.

Christ paid our debt -- because we cannot pay it - and then "live happily ever after".

There will be not ONE human in heaven saying "I am my own savior I paid my own debt and then got in to heaven"

 

[bcbsr]

the Bible says that we arent tempted more than we can bear, so that would sound like breaking it.

People aren't tempted more than they can bear presently, and yet "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Ec 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

Why is that? And won't that also be the case in hell?

 

[bcbsr]

then God would be authoring sin and would be rejecting his own Matthew 10:28 statement along with denying Ezekiel 18:4

Your logic is non-sequitor. I made no allusion to God authoring sin.

 

[BobRyan]

Your logic is non-sequitor. I made no allusion to God authoring sin.

Your scenario where God tortures the wicked - keeps them alive to curse and swear then adds more torture for the new cursing sin - and that this goes on for all eternity - means that they had long since paid for their first-life sin debt but because God continued to torture them and they respond each time with pain and cursing they get in an endless cycle of torture for new sin that God supernaturally enables them to commit.

in that model two statements of Christ in the Gospel of Matthew are being negated.
1. They never pay in full. Matt 18
2. they never have both body and soul destroyed. reduced to ashes "destroyed" in the case of the body. Matt 10:28

In Ezek 18 even the devil himself gets reduced to ashes and "is no more" at that future 2nd death event.

 

[com7fy8]

The evil spirit of the outwardly finite sin (Ephesians 2:2) can have an infinite effect on one's character.

and those who neither chose for or against Christ?

Matthew 12:30

 

[mercyfollowsme]

The evil spirit of the outwardly finite sin (Ephesians 2:2) can have an infinite effect on one's character.Matthew 12:30

until they stop doing it. not really infinite.

 

[xpower]

There is a such thing as "restorative justice", I don't see why justice has to be retribution.

God can be just and not torture people eternally.

 

[Jipsah]

What does JESUS SAY ?
There is no inbetween: "You are either for ME or against ME"
Since HE IS GOD, HE KNOWS.

And He said that God destroys both body and soul in hell. Glad we got that settled.

 

[Received]

Hi

Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin. Its not like the Bible mentions infinite punishment, only that time in hell is everlasting. Can the 2 be separated?

Or can you get out of hell like some of those people who have near death experiences and go to hell first?

Eternity in hell is infinite punishment for finite sin. The only ways around this are 1) to claim that hell is an inexorable state of being where the heart is permanently set against God, or 2) Hell isn't really eternal, enter annihilationism or universalism.