finite punishment for finite sin

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Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin. Its not like the Bible mentions infinite punishment, only that time in hell is everlasting. Can the 2 be separated?

Or can you get out of hell like some of those people who have near death experiences and go to hell first?
 

SeventyOne

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It's not your individual acts of finite sin that gets you into trouble. It's the state where you are fallen and separated from God.

What makes you think people would want out of hell to be with God anyway. They didn't want Him in this life, why would they suddenly want him in the nest?
 
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JackRT

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What About Hell? Fiction and Fact

By Jon M. Sweeney

5 popular fictions:

1. The Bible is crystal clear on the subject of Hell. (It isn't. The Bible is vague at best.)
2. Jesus said that Hell is real. (He didn't, but he spoke several times about Gehenna, a violent, sad place just outside Jerusalem where child sacrifice once took place.)
3. Hell has nine descending circles. (That's all Dante, Hell's true architect.)
4. The worse your sins in life, the worse your punishments for eternity. (Again, that's Dante, this time inspired by Aristotle and Cicero.)
5. Satan reigns in Hell, with pitchfork and tail. (In the Bible, Satan is mostly an impersonal force.)

5 little known facts:

1. Of all the world's scriptures, the Qur'an teaches most consistently the concept of a violent afterlife for unrepentant sinners.
2. Hell is far more real in Virgil's Aeneid than in the New Testament.
3. The Old Testament speaks only of Sheol, not Hell, and Sheol is the dusty place in the earth where everybody goes after they die.
4. St. Paul, who lived and wrote before the New Testament gospels were written, doesn't seem to have thought much about Hell at all.
5. The idea of Hell wouldn't have been possible without the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, and that comes most from Socrates and Plato.

What does all this mean? Perhaps: For 2,000 years, Christian teaching on Hell has been built more on ancient myth and pagan philosophy than the Bible. So, Christians who still want to preach Hell, should at least know what they're talking about.
 
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smithed64

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What About Hell? Fiction and Fact

By Jon M. Sweeney

5 popular fictions:

1. The Bible is crystal clear on the subject of Hell. (It isn't. The Bible is vague at best.)
Not vague at all, it's spoken of as a condition of living in sin. A consequence of sin is death.


2. Jesus said that Hell is real. (He didn't, but he spoke several times about Gehenna, a violent, sad place just outside Jerusalem where child sacrifice once took place.)

Your right, He spoke of Gehenna:
In the OT the word for hell is 'ge-hinnom,' meaning "Valley of Hinnom." It was a place to the southwest of Jerusalem. This place was once "called 'Topheth' and derived from an Aramaic word meaning 'fireplace.' It was here that some pagan kings practiced human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 32:35).1 This is probably why in the NT the word came to be associated with destruction by fire. The word 'gehenna' is found in the NT 12 times and every instance is spoken of by Jesus. In the NT, "gehenna" is used of a condition and never of a place.

3. Hell has nine descending circles. (That's all Dante, Hell's true architect.)

If you don't believe in Hell, how would you know of this and other than a fictional story where does this information come from?

4. The worse your sins in life, the worse your punishments for eternity. (Again, that's Dante, this time inspired by Aristotle and Cicero.)

It's a bit more than that.
Here's an example:

If I lie to my son, there isn't much he can do to me about it. If I tell the same lie to my wife, well in the dog house I could go. If I tell the same lie to a police officer, He could ticket, fine or even incarcerate me. If tell the same lie to the President of my company, He could fire me. And if I told that lie to the President of the United State I could get shot.
Of course this is depending on the lie...but a lie is a lie not matter how you look at it.
But the main point here. Even telling the same lie to different people, there is different punishment according to their hierarchy...son, nothing...wife..dog house...Police officer...jail....Boss..loss of job...etc.
So now you lied and when you lie you sin. And sin goes directly against God. Who happens to be eternal, and judges those that sin and punishes them to Hell, eternal.

5. Satan reigns in Hell, with pitchfork and tail. (In the Bible, Satan is mostly an impersonal force.)

Nope,He goes to and fro upon the face of the earth:

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {Satan: Heb. the adversary} {among: Heb. in the midst of}
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said , From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

LOL....no pitchfork and tail. He's a fallen angel.

The most important thing to know is that. Hell is a place where you will spend eternity if you live you life with sin and never repent and place your trust in Christ.

I've heard it told this away about Hell and God's presence.
Because God is everywhere at all times, his presence that is. Then His presence is also in Hell, not in torment of course because He can't be tormented.
I've come up with this thought:
In Hell, God's presence will be like unto a mirage of water for a man dying of thirst in the desert. Right there in front of those thirsty, tormented men and women who denied Him. Who now know Him to be real and remember all that He offered so as not to go to this place of fire and perpetual darkness. The joy of his presence is just beyond their finger tips and if they move to grab it....it stays always at that distance drawing them deeper into despair

5 little known facts:

1. Of all the world's scriptures, the Qur'an teaches most consistently the concept of a violent afterlife for unrepentant sinners.

yep, they believe in a hell.

2. Hell is far more real in Virgil's Aeneid than in the New Testament.
Your resource for fact is a fictional story?

3. The Old Testament speaks only of Sheol, not Hell, and Sheol is the dusty place in the earth where everybody goes after they die.

Here are the facts:
Gehenna
In the OT the word for hell is 'ge-hinnom,' meaning "Valley of Hinnom." It was a place to the southwest of Jerusalem. This place was once "called 'Topheth' and derived from an Aramaic word meaning 'fireplace.' It was here that some pagan kings practiced human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 32:35).1 This is probably why in the NT the word came to be associated with destruction by fire. The word 'gehenna' is found in the NT 12 times and every instance is spoken of by Jesus. In the NT, "gehenna" is used of a condition and never of a place.

Hades
This word only occurs in the NT ten times and corresponds to the OT word "sheol." Jesus uses the word four times: Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23. The other six occur in Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.

It was probably the "subterranean abode of all the dead until the judgment. It was divided into two departments, paradise or Abraham's bosom for the good, and Gehenna or hell for the bad."2 In particular, in the account of Lazarus and the Rich man of (Luke 16:19-31), it is the place of the conscious dead who are wicked.

Sheol
"The Hebrew word Sheol is probably derived from a root "to make hollow," and was seen as the common receptacle of the dead and in the great many places the word appears in the OT, it is referring to the grave.3 It is a place and is mentioned in Gen. 37:35; Num. 16:30, 33; Psalm 16:10, etc. Sheol has many meanings in scripture: the grave, the underworld, the state of the dead. It was supposed to be below the surface of the earth (Ezek. 31:15,17; Psalm 86:13).
4. St. Paul, who lived and wrote before the New Testament gospels were written, doesn't seem to have thought much about Hell at all.
5. The idea of Hell wouldn't have been possible without the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, and that comes most from Socrates and Plato.

What does all this mean? Perhaps: For 2,000 years, Christian teaching on Hell has been built more on ancient myth and pagan philosophy than the Bible. So, Christians who still want to preach Hell, should at least know what they're talking about.

We know about Hell. We don't want you to go there.

" If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. And if they will perish let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertion and let not on go there unwarned and unsprayed for" spurgeon

"You will find all true theology summed up in these two short sentences:
Salvation is all of the Grace of God.
Damnation is all of the will of man." spurgeon


Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matt. 5:29-30).
 
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OneChristianLight

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Hi

Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin. Its not like the Bible mentions infinite punishment, only that time in hell is everlasting. Can the 2 be separated?

Or can you get out of hell like some of those people who have near death experiences and go to hell first?

I disagree with the idea that hell is punishment from God for the unsaved.

A person is given a choice in life: either to repent of their sins and accept Jesus as their savior, or to persist in ungodliness. When someone chooses the latter, he or she chooses hell by default. In other words, it's up to us whether we accept or reject salvation, and punishment from God plays no part for the unsaved. The choice is ours.
 
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I disagree with the idea that hell is punishment from God for the unsaved.

A person is given a choice in life: either to repent of their sins and accept Jesus as their savior, or to persist in ungodliness. When someone chooses the latter, he or she chooses hell by default. In other words, it's up to us whether we accept or reject salvation, and punishment from God plays no part for the unsaved. The choice is ours.

the choice is for those who have received and understood the gospel message. that's far from universal.
 
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JackRT

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Nope,He goes to and fro upon the face of the earth:

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {Satan: Heb. the adversary} {among: Heb. in the midst of}
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said , From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

LOL....no pitchfork and tail. He's a fallen angel.

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that Satan IS NOT the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.
 
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smithed64

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JackRT

Would quote that, but it's a lot to put in.

Satan was an Angel. Speaks about Him in Revelations When he was cast from heaven and took a 3rd of the Angels with Him.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was hurled down—the ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Hell is real. And If not, then why the Gospel.
Why spread the message of Christ for man to be saved from God's judgment.
For if no Hell, then no place to put the guilty.

That's like Judging murderers here on earth. Just to see if they did it and then letting them go back out into the public. Makes no sense.
 
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JackRT

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Satan was an Angel. Speaks about Him in Revelations When he was cast from heaven and took a 3rd of the Angels with Him.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was hurled down—the ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Hell is real. And If not, then why the Gospel.
Why spread the message of Christ for man to be saved from God's judgment.
For if no Hell, then no place to put the guilty.

That's like Judging murderers here on earth. Just to see if they did it and then letting them go back out into the public. Makes no sense.

Yes, that was the opinion of John of Patmos. I was speaking of the original meaning and intent of Hebrew scripture. You are aware, aren't you, that Job is a fictional allegorical story created to teach a lesson?
 
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Tree of Life

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Hi

Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin. Its not like the Bible mentions infinite punishment, only that time in hell is everlasting. Can the 2 be separated?

Or can you get out of hell like some of those people who have near death experiences and go to hell first?

Two problems:
  1. It's not clear that there can be such a thing as "finite sin" against an infinite God. The concept of "finite sin" would have to be developed and defended.
  2. All who turn from their sin and trust in Christ escape judgement. Those who don't escape judgement do so because they persist in their rebellion. They never turn from their sin. In this sense, their sin is infinite. All who are punished infinitely also sin infinitely.
 
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Tree of Life

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It's not your individual acts of finite sin that gets you into trouble. It's the state where you are fallen and separated from God.

What makes you think people would want out of hell to be with God anyway. They didn't want Him in this life, why would they suddenly want him in the nest?

^ This also. There is a difference between "sin" and "sins". "Sins" are particular transgressions of God's law which are indeed finite. But "sin" is a condition of the heart in which we hate God, refuse to acknowledge him as God, and refuse to submit to him. If there is no repentance then this inner rebellion persists infinitely.
 
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JackRT

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As human beings we are bounded in both time and place. That is to say, we are finite. On the other hand we think of God as completely unbounded. God exists outside of both time and space. God is present everywhere and at all times. That is to say, God is infinite. This is the orthodox theistic understanding of God. To compare the finite to the infinite is beyond our human comprehension. Even to compare a grain of sand to Mount Everest falls far, far, far short. All of this brings up a number of questions in my mind.

The first question being “How is it even possible for a finite creature to offend an infinite God?” Could a grain of sand offend Mount Everest?

The second question being “If it were possible for the finite to offend the infinite, would the infinite punishment of a finite creature be just?” I will attempt to craft an analogy. You are in a park enjoying a picnic lunch when you glance down and notice an ant crawling across your sandwich. You are offended. How do you react? You have a number of options. You could ignore the ant. You could brush the ant away. You could move to a different location. You could kill the ant. You could kill the entire ant colony. You could capture the ant and confine it and proceed to torture it for several weeks until it finally dies. That last option is quite inadequate as a comparison to hell because hell is infinite in duration whereas the ant can only be tortured for a finite length of time.

To me the concept of hell flies in the face of any concept of a just and compassionate God. Hell would seem to be an entirely human invention based on a vindictive concept of retributatory justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of hell. Perhaps we have the
 
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Tree of Life

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The first question being “How is it even possible for a finite creature to offend an infinite God?” Could a grain of sand offend Mount Everest?

It is not possible for creatures to harm God. Job 35:5-8.

To me the concept of hell flies in the face of any concept of a just and compassionate God. Hell would seem to be an entirely human invention based on a vindictive concept of retributatory justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of hell.

The doctrine of hell shows us the justice of God. God will call sinful, wicked men to account who have grievously hurt others. Their sin will be punished - either on the cross via Jesus Christ or they will bear it themselves. But God is also a God of grace, hence the vicarious atonement of Jesus. If sinners trust in Christ then Jesus will suffer on their behalf and they will receive forgiveness.

I wonder what alternative you are proposing. Suppose a sinful wicked man who has despised God and hurt his neighbors refuses to repent of his sin, acknowledge the harm he has caused, and submit himself to God. Do you think that God owes it to him to continue to allow him to live on his good world among his people? Is that what a just and compassionate God would do?
 
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smithed64

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Yes, that was the opinion of John of Patmos. I was speaking of the original meaning and intent of Hebrew scripture. You are aware, aren't you, that Job is a fictional allegorical story created to teach a lesson?

Where do you get this information from that job is a fictional?
 
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JackRT

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It is not possible for creatures to harm God. Job 35:5-8.

I did not say "hurt", I said "offend".

Suppose a sinful wicked man who has despised God and hurt his neighbors refuses to repent of his sin, acknowledge the harm he has caused, and submit himself to God. Do you think that God owes it to him to continue to allow him to live on his good world among his people? Is that what a just and compassionate God would do?

That is what happens daily throughout history. They do live on and continue their evil. Is it God that continues "to allow him to live on his good world among his people?"
 
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JackRT

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Where do you get this information from that job is a fictional?

Where did you pick up the idea that it is historical?

"My point, once again, is not that those ancient people told literal stories and we are now smart enough to take them symbolically, but that they told them symbolically, and we are now dumb enough to take them literally."
--- John Dominic Crossan
 
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