finite punishment for finite sin

[JackRT]

John Dominic Crossan, Doesn't believe in Christ as the risen Savior. He kind of makes things up to fit his own god and to justify his way of living.
So of course he wouldn't believe in Hell.

No, he doesn't fit your concept of Christian faith. But, beyond that he self identifies as a Christian and remains one of the foremost theologians and bible scholars of our day. If you don't like what he says, attack that. Don't just attack the man.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

If you claim that infinite suffering is fair game for human sin, Jesus's atonement, for everyone, should also be infinite.

I agree, but remember this is Gods world not our own..so his rules. But I does make him seem like he holds grudges .

 

[Question ?]

I sinned I believe when I was twelve years old and was saved June 1916, that is fifty years of sinning. I now hate the thought of sinning. Yet I still can sin. I cannot imagine what it would be like not to sin after fifty years. I like the new me and my life has drastically changed. Knowing from good from bad helps me not to sin, yet I will sin. The change after fifty years it is mind boggling to me. I do not seek being perfect, but to make God happy. Name one

 

[Jipsah]

Without eternal punishment: God is not a just God (which is contrary to Scripture)

So how "just" is it really to grant a person eternal life in order to torture them forever?

The wages of sin has nothing to do with spiritual death

So what St. Paul really meant was that the gift of God is eternal life, but the wages of sin is eternal life under torture. Got it.

A person fails to recognize where the fault of eternal punishment lies. It's not with God.

I assume you believe that it was God Who created hell, and Who made eternal torture there, by default, the destiny of all those who don't have faith in Christ (and probably of a lot of those who do, as well). Right? I don't think any sinners were consulted as to their opinion in the matter.

It would be like saying the judge and prison warden are at fault for enprisoning a mass murder

But the judge and the warden didn't make the law, or build the prison, or, for that matter, create the murderer knowing that he was gonna murder folks.

If a person rejects God's gift of life in this life, he will remain corrupt forever.

If God allows the sinner to live, that is. Scripture says that the soul that sins will die. St. Paul says that the wages of sin is death. Our Lord says that God will destroy both body and soul in hell. Where does this idea that the sinner is gonna live forever no matter what come from? The Bible says just the opposite!

Doctrines of Men, dude. That's all you're talking

 

[Anguspure]

Hi

Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin. Its not like the Bible mentions infinite punishment, only that time in hell is everlasting. Can the 2 be separated?

Or can you get out of hell like some of those people who have near death experiences and go to hell first?

Can you fully account for the effect of even one small "finite" sin? I would suggest that the consequence of any action is eternal and more far reaching than we imagine.

Furthermore, the immediate consequence of even one sin is a broken relationship with the Creator and Sustainer of Existence Himself. This is not a matter of punishment as such but a consequence of the created order inherent in who He is and who we are created to be. Clearly then if our relationship with the One who sustains life is broken, then death and destruction is the logical consequence (unless He makes a way through all of this, that is).

 

[giftofGod2]

What an erie feeling it would be (and truly hell) if I ceased to exist and remained conscious of my past, present, and future...

 

[mercyfollowsme]

Can you fully account for the effect of even one small "finite" sin? I would suggest that the consequence of any action is eternal and more far reaching than we imagine.

Furthermore, the immediate consequence of even one sin is a broken relationship with the Creator and Sustainer of Existence Himself. This is not a matter of punishment as such but a consequence of the created order inherent in who He is and who we are created to be. Clearly then if our relationship with the One who sustains life is broken, then death and destruction is the logical consequence (unless He makes a way through all of this, that is).

Yes I can. Deuteronomy lists sins and the small and finite penalties for them.
The concept of infinite penalty for all sin is nowhere here.

 

[Anguspure]

Yes I can. Deuteronomy lists sins and the small and finite penalties for them.
The concept of infinite penalty for all sin is nowhere here.

Thats not what I'm implying. Deuteroonomy is a book of law for a Theocratic nation and says nothing about the real consequences of our actions.
Remember it only took one "harmless" and small bite out of a piece of fruit to put the whole of humanity at risk of eternal destruction.
What then are the real eternal consequences for creation when we commit other small sins?

Also remember as well that none of us have to pay for any of this anyway. The Light came into the world to shine on our misdeeds and pay for the consequences. So there is no danger in over estimating the true consequence of sin, the only danger is when we fail to pass on the cost to our Saviour.

 

[mercyfollowsme]

So

Thats not what I'm implying. Deuteroonomy is a book of law for a Theocratic nation and says nothing about the real consequences of our actions.
Remember it only took one "harmless" and small bite out of a piece of fruit to put the whole of humanity at risk of eternal destruction.
What then are the real eternal consequences for creation when we commit other small sins?

Also remember as well that none of us have to pay for any of this anyway. The Light came into the world to shine on our misdeeds and pay for the consequences. So there is no danger in over estimating the true consequence of sin, the only danger is when we fail to pass on the cost to our Saviour.

so you're saying that these finite OT sacrifices didn't atone for the sins?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Can you fully account for the effect of even one small "finite" sin? I would suggest that the consequence of any action is eternal and more far reaching than we imagine.

It is written the penalty for sin is death. (i.e. permanent) (with ONLY ONE EXCEPTION)

 

[mercyfollowsme]

It is written the penalty for sin is death. (i.e. permanent) (with ONLY ONE EXCEPTION)

Spiritual death, paid whilst you're alive. Other penalties may be available.

 

[Anguspure]

So

so you're saying that these finite OT sacrifices didn't atone for the sins?

The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”

First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. (Hebrews 10)

You can hardly be more succint than that.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”
And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. (Hebrews 10)

HE continues :
26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye,

shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,

and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Anguspure]

HE continues :
26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye,

shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,

and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

True brother, but even this sin has its repentence.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

True brother, but even this sin has its repentence.

That's not what SCRIPTURE says.

 

[Anguspure]

That's not what SCRIPTURE says.

So you are suggesting that if after a while of deliberately continuing to do the wrong (sinful) thing, after I know that it's the wrong thing to do, that I could not possibly change my mind about that, tell my Father that, that is what I think is the case....and then not be accepted?

 

[mercyfollowsme]

S

That's not what SCRIPTURE says.

so just *one* wilful sin as a christian will send you to hell and no
Repentance can restore you? Ask St Peter about that.

 

[ken777]

Scripture says that the soul that sins will die. St. Paul says that the wages of sin is death. Our Lord says that God will destroy both body and soul in hell. Where does this idea that the sinner is gonna live forever no matter what come from? The Bible says just the opposite!

I agree. I think people get confused because the punishment (annihilation) is eternal. Scripture does not tell us that unrepentant sinners have eternal life in hell.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So you are suggesting that if after a while of deliberately continuing to do the wrong (sinful) thing, after I know that it's the wrong thing to do, that I could not possibly change my mind about that, tell my Father that, that is what I think is the case....and then not be accepted?

Let's see what Scripture says, seek the FATHER's WILL and HIS KINGDOM,
and go by what HE says all the time, okay ?
Do not add to, nor take away, from what HIS WORD says; as HIS WORD warns.

Read again what SIN HE SAYS IS NOT FORGIVABLE in the verse in question,
and
compare this to what SIN IS FORGIVABLE , from HIS WORD.
Perhaps see how many times Y'SHUA and YHWH'S WORD says one or the other - HE did not confuse the sin that IS FORGIVABLE with the sin that IS NOT FORGIVABLE.

 

[mercyfollowsme]

Let's see what Scripture says, seek the FATHER's WILL and HIS KINGDOM,
and go by what HE says all the time, okay ?
Do not add to, nor take away, from what HIS WORD says; as HIS WORD warns.

Read again what SIN HE SAYS IS NOT FORGIVABLE in the verse in question,
and
compare this to what SIN IS FORGIVABLE , from HIS WORD.
Perhaps see how many times Y'SHUA and YHWH'S WORD says one or the other - HE did not confuse the sin that IS FORGIVABLE with the sin that IS NOT FORGIVABLE.

There is only one unforgivable sin, but it doesn't follow that even that would need an infinite punishment.