finite punishment for finite sin

[Daniel Marsh]

What About Hell? Fiction and Fact

By Jon M. Sweeney

5 popular fictions:

1. The Bible is crystal clear on the subject of Hell. (It isn't. The Bible is vague at best.)
2. Jesus said that Hell is real. (He didn't, but he spoke several times about Gehenna, a violent, sad place just outside Jerusalem where child sacrifice once took place.)
3. Hell has nine descending circles. (That's all Dante, Hell's true architect.)
4. The worse your sins in life, the worse your punishments for eternity. (Again, that's Dante, this time inspired by Aristotle and Cicero.)
5. Satan reigns in Hell, with pitchfork and tail. (In the Bible, Satan is mostly an impersonal force.)

5 little known facts:

1. Of all the world's scriptures, the Qur'an teaches most consistently the concept of a violent afterlife for unrepentant sinners.
2. Hell is far more real in Virgil's Aeneid than in the New Testament.
3. The Old Testament speaks only of Sheol, not Hell, and Sheol is the dusty place in the earth where everybody goes after they die.
4. St. Paul, who lived and wrote before the New Testament gospels were written, doesn't seem to have thought much about Hell at all.
5. The idea of Hell wouldn't have been possible without the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, and that comes most from Socrates and Plato.

What does all this mean? Perhaps: For 2,000 years, Christian teaching on Hell has been built more on ancient myth and pagan philosophy than the Bible. So, Christians who still want to preach Hell, should at least know what they're talking about.

Maybe God wrote that truth on Socrates and Plato hearts.

 

[mmksparbud]

Maybe God wrote that truth on Socrates and Plato hearts.

Seeing as the bible says that God alone is immortal and the soul that sins it shall die, the immortality of the soul is not biblical and God didn't tell Socrates or Plato that falsehood--it comes straight from His arch enemy--it was the very first lie---"Ye shall not surely die."

 

[7trees]

we're talking about infinite punishment for finite sins.

There is no infinite punishment for finite sin taught in the bible. Sinners go to Hell forever because they are forever sinners. How much sin do you think they commit in a million years- none? They stay sinners as they never repent. That is their choice not God's... Also implying that God is unjust is blasphemy.

 

[JackRT]

Also implying that God is unjust is blasphemy.

That is why I believe in a just God not the God of your interpretation.

 

[mercyfollowsme]

There is no infinite punishment for finite sin taught in the bible. Sinners go to Hell forever because they are forever sinners. How much sin do you think they commit in a million years- none? They stay sinners as they never repent. That is their choice not God's... Also implying that God is unjust is blasphemy.

Why can't they repent in hell? Too evil? Why can't atonement be valid after death? It's just an artificial stage like the moment of birth.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Anyone else think that finite punishment should be fitting for finite sin.

Are the consequences of sin finite? Does the damage caused by sinning against someone else (or against God) have a shelf-life?

 

[7trees]

Why can't they repent in hell? Too evil? Why can't atonement be valid after death? It's just an artificial stage like the moment of birth.

They can repent but are too evil to do so. This comes from a hatred of themselves and of God- Thus God remains just.

 

[7trees]

That is why I believe in a just God not the God of your interpretation.

The God of the bible is just but rather atheism in attitude put in a religious wrapper is not just- not at all.

 

[mmksparbud]

How can they continue to sin in hell? Hell is not meant for converting anyone from their sins. They made their choice in this life and died unrepentant and therefore their sentence is the 2nd death. They don't continue to sin, they are sinners and therefore they pay the price of death. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life. The saved get eternal life --that is the gift of God.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[7trees]

How can they continue to sin in hell? Hell is not meant for converting anyone from their sins. They made their choice in this life and died unrepentant and therefore their sentence is the 2nd death. They don't continue to sin, they are sinners and therefore they pay the price of death. The wages of sin is death, not eternal life. The saved get eternal life --that is the gift of God.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Your belief is similar to that of the JWs and many other people. Usually soul and spirit are confuted.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


The soul is the life force that fades at death. The spirit by nature is eternal and indestructible. Death in the bible can be several things including a fallen angel, physical death, being alive yet dead as in being carnal not spiritual, and separation from God forever.

A spirit continues to think feel, have motives and so on. Therefore sin continues in the unholy. Judgement Day has not yet come and so spirits go where laws of attraction draw them.

All these things can be understood, balanced out by those who love the truth and are taught by God. However until Christ returns Christians will continue to debate the fate of the soul and so on.

Generally people like the idea of everlasting life but not everlasting destruction and so this informs their opinions. Multitudes of Christians only believe those things they see as positive. These used to be called 'easy believers'...

Imagine a group of Christians that only believed the negative- such as "Christ is eternal life (1 John 5:20) not you. There is only Hell or nothing..."

 

[mmksparbud]

Your belief is similar to that of the JWs and many other people. Usually soul and spirit are confuted.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


The soul is the life force that fades at death. The spirit by nature is eternal and indestructible. Death in the bible can be several things including a fallen angel, physical death, being alive yet dead as in being carnal not spiritual, and separation from God forever.

A spirit continues to think feel, have motives and so on. Therefore sin continues in the unholy. Judgement Day has not yet come and so spirits go where laws of attraction draw them.

All these things can be understood, balanced out by those who love the truth and are taught by God. However until Christ returns Christians will continue to debate the fate of the soul and so on.

Generally people like the idea of everlasting life but not everlasting destruction and so this informs their opinions. Multitudes of Christians only believe those things they see as positive. These used to be called 'easy believers'...

Imagine a group of Christians that only believed the negative- such as "Christ is eternal life (1 John 5:20) not you. There is only Hell or nothing..."

Heard them all---too many verses that deny your concept. God alone is immortal. He gives eternal life as a gift to the saved, not the lost.
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[7trees]

Heard them all---too many verses that deny your concept. God alone is immortal. He gives eternal life as a gift to the saved, not the lost.
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

All those verses I agree with and they agree with my concept.

 

[mmksparbud]

All those verses I agree with and they agree with my concept.

No they do not. The soul that sinneth shall die--no such thing as eternal life for the lost, only the saved.
It is everlasting destruction--everlasting death---not everlasting dying,--that is still life and only the saved get eternal life.

 

[7trees]

No they do not.

Yes they do, completely, truly and absolutely. The soul is not the spirit. The dead are all resurrected and judged. If you disagree with God or reject parts of the bible; or use one verse to defeat another you should be honest about it. it is not me you disagree with it is Christ.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes they do, completely, truly and absolutely. The soul is not the spirit. The dead are all resurrected and judged. If you disagree with God or reject parts of the bible; or use one verse to defeat another you should be honest about it. it is not me you disagree with it is Christ.

I do not disagree with Christ.

Psa_115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

 

[7trees]

I do not disagree with Christ.

Psa_115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

You quote verses everyone agrees with as if we did not. You confute 'eternal life' which is Christ (1 John 5:20) in the spirit of Man with the indestructible nature of spirit. You do not explain the difference between spirit or soul. In fact I could go on as indeed you do disagree with Christ all over the place. Wishing that his preaching on Hell was metaphor does not make it so...

 

[mmksparbud]

You quote verses everyone agrees with as if we did not. You confute 'eternal life' which is Christ (1 John 5:20) in the spirit of Man with the indestructible nature of spirit. You do not explain the difference between spirit or soul. In fact I could go on as indeed you do disagree with Christ all over the place. Wishing that his preaching on Hell was metaphor does not make it so...

If you agree with the verses, then you do not believe that the lost are given eternal life-only the saved. Then they can not be burning in hell forever. A made up theology about soul, spirit is just that. The bible says death is the penalty for sin--not eternal life in hell.

 

[7trees]

If you agree with the verses, then you do not believe that the lost are given eternal life-only the saved. Then they can not be burning in hell forever. A made up theology about soul, spirit is just that. The bible says death is the penalty for sin--not eternal life in hell.

To Quote Smithed64 from another thread:

Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50.

Cast into a tormenting fire

Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Thrown into the lake of Fire

Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."


Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29, 30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering--'to punish, punishment.'"5

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man

In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.

Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question is then if it is a parable, what is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable, what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.

Conclusion
Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matt. 5:29-30).



Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[mmksparbud]

I will be 66 next month and I've been going over these same verses for years and years and years. It is obvious there is a hell, the question is--for how long?
The first lie and is still a lie:

(Gen 3:4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
The bible also says:
Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
Isa 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Oba 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”
Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
James 4:12a “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (Another translation for this verse reads):
(2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”)
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[BobRyan]

Tv
Cast into a tormenting fire

Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Indeed all of that literal fire and brimstone torment takes place "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb"

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Indeed - Sodom and Gomorrah and eternal fire -


Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.




Jude 7

7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Luke 17:29-30
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone,

Indeed the devil himself literally cast into the lake of fire - Rev 20.

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”