Jason0047 said:
when you say that a believer will never overcome serious sin in this life when the Bible teaches that it is possible to do so, you are going against what the Scriptures say.
I never said anything like that.
While there is a slim chance that I may be mistaken, I believe you are not being consistent in what you say you believe. You quoted to me 1 John 1:8 in post #189
here when I said that the gospel does not make for an allowance for a little bit of sin. I remember you said before in other threads that a believer can overcome sin but you simply do not see overcoming any kind of sin is a part of salvation. But when you quote 1 John 1:8 to me, it leads me to think you take the OSAS interpretation that says we will always be in sin otherwise we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Is this not how you understand this verse? What exactly is your interpretation on 1 John 1:8? How does your view on 1 John 1:8 line up with a believer overcoming sin?
You said:
Some do and some don't I suppose. But not as a normal pattern of life going forward of course.
Maybe you've been a better man than I have during the sanctification period. More power to you if you have. But after failing a couple of hundred times in 60 years of Christian life, as I have, you get to wondering if you will ever get complete victory before passing on or at least something which seems like it.
Overcoming sin is not possible for a believer who does not accept or believe the Scriptures true teaching on Soteriolgy. It does help to believe those Scriptures that teach we can overcome sin, but it is even just as equally important to understand that we are not telling people that they can sin and still be saved (Which is turning God's grace into a license for immorality that God cannot agree with - See Jude 1:4 NIV).
You said:
No - it's not
"approval" of sin (I don't know where you get such a term
). It's just a recognition for most of us that we probably will.
This is what is deceptive about Eternal Security. It's proponents preach a double message. One message says you must live holy and the other message says you can sin and still be saved.
You said
here in another thread, I quote:
"If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.
Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a
brother."
2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
There's a real world example. Note that he is still a brother even while he is in sin and even while he is being shunned by other believers. Quote by: ~ Marvin Knox.
Jason0047 said:
I thought you don't believe in working out your salvation? I thought you believe that salvation is in having a belief alone on Jesus as your Savior and that no works are involved?
You said:
I have no idea where you got that idea. Perhaps you are the one who sees salvation as just an initial confession. Certainly I never have.
No. You don't believe in working out your salvaiton. You believe in just... having a belief on Jesus for your salvation. You don't believe works of any kind is a part of the salvation process. So when Scripture says to you to work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12), you obviously take that to mean something else.
Jason0047 said:
This is Justification or the foundation of our faith. But it is not at the exclusion of good works that then come immediately after a person accepts Christ as their Savior.
You said:
No one has said otherwise.
Well, you have to keep reading to get my full point. I am saying that good works are a part of the salvation process. You said that we are not saved by works and it is soley on the basis of believing in Christ. Good works to you are not necessary for salvation. But the Bible teaches otherwise (Matthew 19:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14).
Jason0047 said:
Belief in Jesus as one's Savior is not supposed to stop
You said:
No kidding. Did you have the idea that anyone here thought otherwise?
I am telling you this because before you implied or suggested that I did not trust in Jesus and His death and resurrection.
Jason0047 said:
in addition to God's saving grace, the Scriptures also teach that Sanctification is the next step or stage in the salvation process. It is about getting rid of sin out of your life. It is about making good on the profession to Jesus that you are sorry about your sins and that you would do them no more. Jesus not only came to forgive us of our past sins, but He came to help us to overcome our sins.
1 John 3:8 says that Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.
You said:
Again - no kidding. Did you have the idea that anyone here thought otherwise?
No. You don't believe Sanctification is a part of the salvation process. You essentially said before in another thread and this one that we are saved solely on believing in Jesus Christ as our Savior. You said works are not a part of salvation. In fact, you believe that a believer can abide in sin and still be saved.
Jason0047 said:
If a believer commits serious sin again and does not repent of it (followed by the fruits of repentance - which is forsaking their sin), then they need to get their heart right with the Lord. They need to rededicate their life to Christ. They need to make a real committment.
You said:
Did you have the idea that anyone here thought otherwise?
Again, this is just not true on your part. For you believe that a saint can abide in sin and still be saved. What purpose does it serve to commit one's life to Christ and live holy and righteous if they can just sin and still be saved?
Jason0047 said:
Sanctification is done when somebody is sold out to Christ. It is surrendering to Christ and allow Him to do the good work through you.
You said:
Again - these things are basic Christian walk 101. Did you have the idea that anyone here thought otherwise?
I am telling this to you for your benefit in helping you to understand what I believe. Before you were suggesting that I was trying to save myself by my works. But I believe it is the Lord who works in the believer.
Jason0047 said:
Sanctification is supposed to compliment Justification. Why? Because Sanctification is a part of living out one's faith and we are saved by grace through faith.
You said:
You are, again, stating the obvious.
But you preach a double message. You also say that a believer can abide in sin and still be saved. So what good is Sanctification or living out one's faith in holiness if one can just do evil and still be in God's good graces?
Jason0047 said:
Jesus tells the disciples to do the following as a part of the great commission.
19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,
even unto the end of the world. Amen." (
Matthew 28:19-20).
Did you catch verse 20? It says that the disciples are to teach others to observe all things that He had commanded them.
You said:
Sure - do you think that people who believe in the eternal security of the believer do and teach otherwise?
Of course I haven't forgotten.
But are you not undoing Christ's commands or giving less weight to them when you and other Eternal Security proponents say that a believer can abide in sin and still be saved?
Jason0047 said:
Many today do not realize that the gospel is tied to sanctification (i.e. holy living) (See
Ephesians 5:28-30 and
Titus 2:14).
You said:
Most every believer in eternal security realizes that.
I don't believe that. For most folks have not even replied to me in regards to these verses. If they do believe these verses (amongst their silence), they must have an askewed meaning of Sanctification. For they must believe that Sanctification makes for an allowance for either a little bit of sin or a lot of sin. Either way, a person thinking they can sin and yet also be saved is turning God's grace into a license for immorality.
You said:
You seem to still be laboring under the misconception that just because a person doesn't believe that they lose and regain salvation (in the basic Heaven vs. Hell sense) every time they sin - they believe in an antinomian theology.
Scripture teaches that serious sin is separation from God.
Remember, it only took one sin by Adam to cause a separation between God and man. Why you think things have changed is beyond me. Do you think Adam was an unbeliever in God? No. He believed in God's existence but He did not believe His words or His command.
You said:
You have been corrected on that several times now.
Where? What verses?
You didn't even reply to all of the verses I put forth.
You said:
Many if not most people, who believe Jesus words concerning never again coming into condemnation once having passed from death to life, teach victory over sin and yielding to the Holy Spirit just as much as you do.
No. Most do not believe in Sinless Perfectionism. You are one of the few rare breeds in the Eternal Security camp that believes in it.
You said:
The difference, of course, is that they do not believe that their basic salvation depends on a certain degree of victory or it will be lost.
So if a believer is enslaved to murder their whole lives, they won't be lost?
If a believer is enslaved to abusing children their whole lives, they won't be lost?
If a believer is enslaved to sleeping with prostitutes their whole lives, they won't be lost?
They can be saved as long as they confess their sins and they generally lived holy in other areas of their life?
You said:
I have no idea where you got the idea you have about people who believe like me "approving" of sin or preaching that God "approves" of sin.
But you are dead wrong. What's worse is that you will not be corrected even when told time and time again that we do not.
You said believers can sin and still be saved in another thread
here. You said, I quote:
"This is an absolutely accurate and infallible recounting of an actual person and their sin and the Holy Spirit's opinion of it.
It took place in a real place (Thessalonica) in the middle of the first century.
An entire Christian congregation was well aware of this sin. The Apostle Paul was even well aware of this sin.
The Holy Spirit commented on the sin and the way the church dealt with it. He also commented on the status of the person involved in the sin (even as he was still doing it).
The Holy Spirit calls him a brother even as he is still sinning and totally unrepentant.
This is a real world example of a real world man from a real world place.
It simply doesn't get any more real world than this example.
We are even blessed in this case with God's commentary on the subject of the eternal status of the man as he was in sin.
If you won't accept this real world example it is only because of one reason IMO.
Your doctrine is incorrect and you will not repent and cease teaching it.
Repent Jason - the Kingdom of God is at hand." Quote by: ~ Marvin Knox.
Anyways, I do hope you see where I am coming from.
May God's love shine upon you.
Sincerely,
~ Jason.