Few will be saved?

[Archivist]

Just out of curiosity, how many of those who believe that few will be saved consider themselves to be among those few?

 

[Oldmantook]

No. Just those who imply it is pertaining to justification before God are incorrect. A saving faith will have works accompanying it. James 2:17 is one of those keys that clarifies what James in referencing in verse 24.

Yes a saving faith will have works because all James is stating is that in essence, works are the outward evidence of inward genuine faith. Therefore when you wrote "some works-based claims" as if works were not related at all to saving faith is inaccurate as we both agree that works is the evidence faith - not the cause of it. Therefore one's works or lack thereof, do have a role to play in one's justification before God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Just out of curiosity, how many of those who believe that few will be saved consider themselves to be among those few?

A few do.

 

[Oldmantook]

Just out of curiosity, how many of those who believe that few will be saved consider themselves to be among those few?

That's a very good question and I suppose the answer is based upon whether we will all persevere. In various scriptures salvation is promised to those who persevere, overcome, fight the good fight, finish the race etc. In other scriptures, salvation is described in the present and future tenses - not strictly as a past event. Thus taking the whole of Scripture into account, salvation is a process initiated and is possessed when one first believes but continues as long as one perseveres onto obedience.
Some Christians boldly and confidently predict that they will persevere and not deny Jesus under any and all circumstances. Peter proudly stated the same thing; yet he denied Jesus 3 times and this from a disciple who closely followed the Master up close. If Peter denied the Lord (but later repented and forgiven), can anyone claim that they will never, ever deny the Lord? So to answer your question, I don't know if I'm among the few because perseverance is necessary and my race hasn't finished yet

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't know if I'm among the few because perseverance is necessary and my race hasn't finished yet

Read the Epistles.
See in Scripture who knew , and who didn't know, and who was deceived. (it is clearly shown)
i.e. according to YHWH'S WORD.

 

[Devin P]

No. We do not go back to the Law of Moses so as to maintain our salvation. Circumcision, the Saturday Sabbath, the dietary laws, laws on animal sacrifices and the judicial laws have all been abrogated. Believers today are to primarily look to the commands in the New Testament to obey the Lord.

Did I say that we should keep the law for salvation?

No. I'm not saying that at all. We are justified by faith alone. BUT, that faith, should result in a desire to keep the Torah. I hear constantly about this 613 law nonsense. It's exactly that, nonsense. A lot of those laws were given to judges, literally ordained by God. A lot pertained specifically to Levites, some only to levitical priests (sacrifices), others to farmers, some only to children, some to women, some to married couples, etc.

When it's all said and done, all we have to worry about, are His sabbaths, His holy days, and His Torah. Show me where in the scriptures that they did away with keeping the 7th day Sabbath? Because if you go through history, they kept the 7th day sabbath, in the new testament, and on up until the 3rd century when the Romans killed those who kept the 7th day sabbath, and eventually they started keeping the 1st day.

Show me in the scriptures where we no longer have to keep the feast days, because I can show you several times where the apostles, decades after Jesus ascended where they kept several feasts. From Passover, unleavened bread, pentecost, etc.

All throughout the NT, they kept the 7th day sabbath, kept the feasts, and even gave instructions to keep the feasts. The Torah doesn't go away. Jesus said to the woman, go and sin no more. Sin, is only ever described in the bible as one thing: the transgression of the law.

When Jesus say "depart from me, ye who work iniquity" that word iniquity, is translated from the greek word "anomia" which means:

Lawlessness - for one of two reasons:
a. the desire to disobey it
b. ignorance of the law

Again, I'm not saying that we have to keep Torah FOR salvation. That's what Paul preached against. Judaizers were saying that unless you do this, and unless you do that. No. God desires you to DESIRE to obey Him. Not to obey Him out of fear, or out of self-righteousness.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Most of these go back to those with true faith will do good works. Lack of good works indicate a dead faith. They don't kill faith, which is your implication. You will know them by their fruit, etc.

You believe a contradiction. On the one hand, you say that a true faith will have good works (with a lack of faith indicating a dead faith) and yet on the other hand you say that a lack of works does not kill faith.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
(Matthew 25:41-46).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Good, then I don't know why you insist on something different with your words.

When I say that you must obey God's commands, this is a cooperation with the Lord and the good work He wants to do through you. It is Synergystic. It is what I believe. If you want to say otherwise, then go ahead bear false witness then.

 

[SeventyOne]

Yes a saving faith will have works because all James is stating is that in essence, works are the outward evidence of inward genuine faith. Therefore when you wrote "some works-based claims" as if works were not related at all to saving faith is inaccurate as we both agree that works is the evidence faith - not the cause of it. Therefore one's works or lack thereof, do have a role to play in one's justification before God.

I wasn't referencing you specifically. I wasn't singling anyone out. If the statement didn't apply to you, that's great.

 

[SeventyOne]

You believe a contradiction. On the one hand, you say that a true faith will have good works (with a lack of faith indicating a dead faith) and yet on the other hand you say that a lack of works does not kill faith.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
(Matthew 25:41-46).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

There's no contradiction between these verses and what I said. It's simple cause and effect. Those with true faith will have good works. If they didn't have good works, they didn't have true faith.

When I say that you must obey God's commands, this is a cooperation with the Lord and the good work He wants to do through you. It is Synergystic. It is what I believe. If you want to say otherwise, then go ahead bear false witness then.

You might not believe it, but not believing what you believe specifically, doesn't make one a false witness.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Did I say that we should keep the law for salvation?

No. I'm not saying that at all. We are justified by faith alone. BUT, that faith, should result in a desire to keep the Torah. I hear constantly about this 613 law nonsense. It's exactly that, nonsense. A lot of those laws were given to judges, literally ordained by God. A lot pertained specifically to Levites, some only to levitical priests (sacrifices), others to farmers, some only to children, some to women, some to married couples, etc.

When it's all said and done, all we have to worry about, are His sabbaths, His holy days, and His Torah. Show me where in the scriptures that they did away with keeping the 7th day Sabbath? Because if you go through history, they kept the 7th day sabbath, in the new testament, and on up until the 3rd century when the Romans killed those who kept the 7th day sabbath, and eventually they started keeping the 1st day.

Do you believe not keeping the Sabbaths is a salvation issue?
Paul said we are not to judge according to Sabbaths (Colossians 2:16).
Paul said in Romans 14 that some regard some days as being all alike and others regard one day over another. In fact, there are no Sabbath commands given to us under the New Covenant. They are ceremonial laws and not God's eternal moral laws.

In fact, I believe we do have to be obedient to God's commands as a part of the salvation process. But these are God's Eternal Moral Laws like "do not murder," "do not covet," "do not steal," "do not commit adultery," "love your neighbor (like helping the poor, and the brethren), etc.

Show me in the scriptures where we no longer have to keep the feast days, because I can show you several times where the apostles, decades after Jesus ascended where they kept several feasts. From Passover, unleavened bread, pentecost, etc.

Colossians 2:16.

All throughout the NT, they kept the 7th day sabbath, kept the feasts, and even gave instructions to keep the feasts. The Torah doesn't go away.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. This means that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
Jesus was saying He came not to abolish all forms of Law like God's Eternal Moral Laws.
Paul says you fulfill the whole Law by loving your neighbor in Romans 13:8-10.
This would be the Moral Law like do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc. (as Paul says).

Jesus said to the woman, go and sin no more. Sin, is only ever described in the bible as one thing: the transgression of the law.

At that time, the Old Law (as a whole) was in effect, but it was waxing old and it was ready to vanish away until Christ died upon the cross. Oh, and yes. I agree that sin is transgression of the Law. This is what 1 John 3:4 says. But this would be God's laws under the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant. We primarily look to the commands in the New Testament and not the Old Testament to obey God. All ceremionial laws (like the Sabbaths, dietary laws, laws on animals sacrifices and the priesthood) are done away with. They are the ordinances that were against us that Christ nailed to the cross.

When Jesus say "depart from me, ye who work iniquity" that word iniquity, is translated from the greek word "anomia" which means:

Lawlessness - for one of two reasons:
a. the desire to disobey it
b. ignorance of the law

Again, I'm not saying that we have to keep Torah FOR salvation. That's what Paul preached against. Judaizers were saying that unless you do this, and unless you do that. No. God desires you to DESIRE to obey Him. Not to obey Him out of fear, or out of self-righteousness.

We are to fear God. Fear means fear. Jesus said if you look upon a woman in lust you are in danger of hellfire. So... there are consequences to anyone who breaks God's laws today (Which would be the commands primarily in the New Testament).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There's no contradiction between these verses and what I said. It's simple cause and effect. Those with true faith will have good works. If they didn't have good works, they didn't have true faith.

But these types of words do not line up with your other phrase that implied that a lack of works does not kill faith. Please explain how those two statements agree? Do you not believe in Eternal Security? Do you not believe that a believer will always sin the rest of their lives?

You might not believe it, but not believing what you believe specifically, doesn't make one a false witness.

No. That is not what you said. You said I keep insisting something different with my words. In what way do you think I am insisting something different? What words do you think I am using that does not line up with the fact that Jesus does the good work in us? Please explain.

 

[Devin P]

Do you believe not keeping the Sabbaths is a salvation issue?
Paul said we are not to judge according to Sabbaths (Colossians 2:16).
Paul said in Romans 14 that some regard some days as being all alike and others regard one day over another. In fact, there are no Sabbath commands given to us under the New Covenant. They are ceremonial laws and not God's eternal moral laws.

Let's look at that verse in context though:

Romans 14 3:6
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

People think that this is talking about the sabbath, but when looked at in context, it's talking about fasting. Sabbath is never once mentioned in this chapter, in fact, it's not even once mentioned in the entire book of Romans. There was a big dispute back in the 1st century about which day was the best and most acceptable day to fast to the Father, but what Paul is saying is "bruh, it doesn't matter, whether or not you eat, you're doing it to God, don't judge, fast on whatever day you want". Not, "nah man, have the sabbath any day you want, God's commandment doesn't matter."

In fact, I believe we do have to be obedient to God's commands as a part of faith (i.e. the Sanctification process). But these are God's Eternal Moral Laws like "do not murder," "do not covet," "do not steal," "do not commit adultery," "love your neighbor (like helping the poor, and the brethren), etc.



Colossians 2:16.

Okay, so Here in Colossians, Pau was writing to Gentiles. Right? I think we can both agree on that. Well, follow me here.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Meat: First off, if gentiles eat anything, all meats, without judging, and the church Paul is writing to, is surrounded by, and in the middle of gentiles, who would judge them for eating meat? Unless they were abstaining from certain meats.

Drink: Gentiles at this time, observed many feasts. The feast of saturnalia, the feast of Ishtar, etc. All of them were observed with large quantities of alcohol. Gentiles drank often, they saw it, and being drunk as synonymous with spirituality. So, why would the be judged if they were drinking? Gentiles greatly respected, and cherished alcohol and it's effects. They weren't being judged because they were drinking, but because they weren't getting drunk anymore.

Holy Days: Can man make a day holy? No. God gave His people Holy days to follow. The gentiles had several gods, and all of which had their own celebrations. So, why would they be judged? Unless it was for a God that was not their own, and was in fact, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

New Moon: What do gentiles have to do with new moons? Absolutely nothing. Gentiles have worshipped the sun for thousands of years. They have since long before Jesus used the sun to regulate and determine their calendar years. They were being judged regarding new moons, because according to God, and the Torah, the moon, and more specifically the new moon, was how they were to determine when the new month came. Even today, Judah still uses the new moon (which is a phase of the moon) to determine when a new month starts. They were being judged because they were doing exactly the opposite of the gentiles they were surrounded by. The calendar we use today is taken from these gentiles that were judging them. We observe new months and such based on the locations of the sun, whereas, God had His people use a calendar that was reliant on the phases of the moon, not the positioning of the sun.

Sabbath Days: It's plural. Why? Because, several of the holy days God gave to us, have sabbaths. Sukkot is coming up this friday. The first, and the last day of Sukkot are sabbath days, not to mention trumpets, atonement, and the regular sabbath days. All of these are Sabbath days. Why were they being judged for them? Because, gentiles, especially around this time (1st century) hated the jews and thought they were lazy because it wasn't normal for people to take days off of work. Let alone the weeks taken off by jews each year according to the days the Torah gives them.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. This means that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
Jesus was saying He came not to abolish all forms of Law like God's Eternal Moral Laws.
Paul says you fulfill the whole Law by loving your neighbor in Romans 13:8-10.
This would be the Moral Law like do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc. (as Paul says).

There is no moral law, that's a man-made term. The whole law deals with things like that. There is no moral law in the bible, the term doesn't even exist. The only thing that was done away with, was the priesthood. It itself wasn't even done away with really, but Jesus Himself is our Priest now. Whereas before we had priests from the children of Aaron, of the tribe of Levi, now we have Jesus.

At that time, the Old Law (as a whole) was in effect, but it was waxing old and it was ready to vanish away until Christ died upon the cross. Oh, and yes. I agree that sin is transgression of the Law. This is what 1 John 3:4 says. But this would be God's laws under the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant. We primarily look to the commands in the New Testament and not the Old Testament to obey God. All ceremionial laws (like the Sabbaths, dietary laws, laws on animals sacrifices and the priesthood) are done away with. They are the ordinances that were against us that Christ nailed to the cross.

The priesthood was changed, that was the only change in the law. The law that we are freed from, was the law of the adulterous bride. We were once married to God, as Israel. But, because we kept being unfaithful, He put us away. According to the Torah, the only way to remarry anyone as a wife put away, was for the husband to die, which meant living until the death of the husband as a curse. No one would associate with you, and you couldn't remarry. Well, God was our husband, so He had to come down and die to for us to free us from that. The reason He resurrected was so we'd have an eligible bachelor to be married to. He brought us back to Him, by His death. The law doesn't just go away.

We are to fear God. Fear means fear. Jesus said if you look upon a woman in lust you are in danger of hellfire. So... there are consequences to anyone who breaks God's laws today (Which would be the commands primarily in the New Testament).

Right, I definitely agree that there are consequences for breaking the law, the law is the Torah. And you'll never know if you're breaking the Torah, if you don't pay attention to it. Can we fulfill the Torah? Eh, I mean mostly yes. But we will obviously sin, no one is perfect.

The change in the law paul was talking about in Hebrews 7, if you read it, was talking about the priesthood. That was the necessary change in the law, the priesthood. Like I said, before, the only priests that God would accept were the sons of Aaron of the tribe of Levi. Jesus is the only Priest, EVER to have NOT been not only of Levi, but also the son of Aaron.

 

[Ronald]

What did Jesus mean when he said "few will be saved?" There are billions of Christians out there! Christianity is the largest religion in the world! So surely many will be saved? What are we missing? Discuss.

Zechariah 13:8 states: "It will come about in all the land," Declares the LORD, "That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it."
Romans 9:27 & 11:5 speak of a remnant. But this remnant is concerning all believers of Christ, not just Israel.

In the end times, according to Romans 11, the Jews will be saved (a remnant 1/3)
They will be tested, put through the fire and protected. If Israel, the chosen nation was to have 1/3, I always thought that the Gentile world would have the same 1/3 remnant.
There are currently 2.3 billion Christians and counting, maybe 2.4 which is exactly 1/3 of the population of the planet. And I also believe Judgment Day is imminent.

 

[Devin P]

Do you believe not keeping the Sabbaths is a salvation issue?
Paul said we are not to judge according to Sabbaths (Colossians 2:16).
Paul said in Romans 14 that some regard some days as being all alike and others regard one day over another. In fact, there are no Sabbath commands given to us under the New Covenant. They are ceremonial laws and not God's eternal moral laws.

In fact, I believe we do have to be obedient to God's commands as a part of the salvation process. But these are God's Eternal Moral Laws like "do not murder," "do not covet," "do not steal," "do not commit adultery," "love your neighbor (like helping the poor, and the brethren), etc.



Colossians 2:16.



Jesus came to fulfill the Law. This means that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
Jesus was saying He came not to abolish all forms of Law like God's Eternal Moral Laws.
Paul says you fulfill the whole Law by loving your neighbor in Romans 13:8-10.
This would be the Moral Law like do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc. (as Paul says).



At that time, the Old Law (as a whole) was in effect, but it was waxing old and it was ready to vanish away until Christ died upon the cross. Oh, and yes. I agree that sin is transgression of the Law. This is what 1 John 3:4 says. But this would be God's laws under the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant. We primarily look to the commands in the New Testament and not the Old Testament to obey God. All ceremionial laws (like the Sabbaths, dietary laws, laws on animals sacrifices and the priesthood) are done away with. They are the ordinances that were against us that Christ nailed to the cross.



We are to fear God. Fear means fear. Jesus said if you look upon a woman in lust you are in danger of hellfire. So... there are consequences to anyone who breaks God's laws today (Which would be the commands primarily in the New Testament).

My apologies, completely read over the first question. I don't think keeping the sabbath is a salvation issue. I do think, if you don't desire to keep the correct sabbath, that you should question whether or not you are saved though.

Man says to keep Sabbath on one day, God another. left or Right. Which way are you going to turn?

I think it's possible to enter heaven if we do away with one of the commandments, but not all of them. If we do away with all of the Torah, and teach others to do the same, I don't think such a person is saved. Because His spirit living in us, will make us want to fulfill those things, even though we aren't able to perfectly keep them.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

We see that a hardened heart is what keeps us from keeping the statutes, and judgements of God, but a softened heart will make us desire to keep them.

I don't believe that our keeping them is what saves us, otherwise no one would be saved. It's a faith issue. So long as we have faith that God is what justifies us, or more specifically Jesus, then even though we'll sin, we'll be fine. But, if we don't desire to keep Torah, then we don't love God, because it's what He asks us to do. Otherwise, we're stuck trying to do the impossible. We're trying to avoid sin, without looking with the lens that shows us what sin is, and we try to obey God, with things God didn't give us to obey Him with.

He already told us what obedience to Him looks like, and it's in Torah. People say that there's 613... but that's not so.

A lot of those were given to levites, levite priests, kings, slave owners, slaves, Godly-ordained judges, women, children, farmers, laws specifically for the land, etc. My point is, when it's all said and done, there's really only like 150-200, and all of them are easy to do. Especially since - I live in America - and there's hundreds of thousands of laws for me to follow here.

The feasts can't be done away with though. Why? Because, Jesus fulfilled the first 4 spring feasts when He first came. He is going to fulfill the 3 fall feasts when He comes back. The first one is trumpets (revelations tells us He comes back at the sound of a trumpet) then the one after that is atonement (which is His judgement), and the last one is sukkot, or Tabernacles (which is Him coming to live down here on Earth with us for 1000 years.). How are the feast days done away with, if the apostles kept them in the NT, they kept them historically until the 3rd century when the Romans forced them to stop, and Jesus Himself is going to fulfill them at His second coming?

 

[ViaCrucis]

What did Jesus mean when he said "few will be saved?" There are billions of Christians out there! Christianity is the largest religion in the world! So surely many will be saved? What are we missing? Discuss.

Are you referring to the Lord's words that "broad is the way to destruction" and/or "many are called, few are chosen"?

I suspect that we may error in assuming that here He means only a few will be saved, with the inverse of most will be damned. After all, let us understand also the Lord's words when He tells us that the invitation to the banquet has gone forth and many refused and then the invitation went out to the alleyways to the prostitutes and the tax collectors. Let us also consider that Scripture teaches us that God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son so that whosoever puts their trust in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life, that the Son did not come to condemn but to save. Let us read where the Apostle has said that God desires all to be saved, and remember where the Prophet has said God does not delight in the death of the wicked.

We should trust in our Lord to save; and not seek to quantify it. For He who abandons Himself for the world to save it does mean to accomplish what He says He will accomplish. But instead consider yourself, ensure that you are not turning away the invitation to the feast; your neighbor is as beloved of God as you, and He desires your neighbor's salvation as much as He desire's your own--therefore put your faith in Christ, trust in Him to save you. Preach the Gospel, love your neighbor, and trust in God to be God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Neostarwcc]

Are you referring to the Lord's words that "broad is the way to destruction" and/or "many are called, few are chosen"?

I suspect that we may error in assuming that here He means only a few will be saved, with the inverse of most will be damned. After all, let us understand also the Lord's words when He tells us that the invitation to the banquet has gone forth and many refused and then the invitation went out to the alleyways to the prostitutes and the tax collectors. Let us also consider that Scripture teaches us that God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son so that whosoever puts their trust in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life, that the Son did not come to condemn but to save. Let us read where the Apostle has said that God desires all to be saved, and remember where the Prophet has said God does not delight in the death of the wicked.

We should trust in our Lord to save; and not seek to quantify it. For He who abandons Himself for the world to save it does mean to accomplish what He says He will accomplish. But instead consider yourself, ensure that you are not turning away the invitation to the feast; your neighbor is as beloved of God as you, and He desires your neighbor's salvation as much as He desire's your own--therefore put your faith in Christ, trust in Him to save you. Preach the Gospel, love your neighbor, and trust in God to be God.

-CryptoLutheran

Good post. It's true Jesus did say whoever believes in him will have Eternal life. Is it just the fact that only a small population of the world believes in him?

 

[SeventyOne]

Good post. It's true Jesus did say whoever believes in him will have Eternal life. Is it just the fact that only a small population of the world believes in him?

It's paradoxical. Those who believe are saved, but in Acts 13:48, you find a strange passage stating it's those who were appointed to eternal life who believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let's look at that verse in context though:

Romans 14 3:6
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

People think that this is talking about the sabbath, but when looked at in context, it's talking about fasting. Sabbath is never once mentioned in this chapter, in fact, it's not even once mentioned in the entire book of Romans. There was a big dispute back in the 1st century about which day was the best and most acceptable day to fast to the Father, but what Paul is saying is "bruh, it doesn't matter, whether or not you eat, you're doing it to God, don't judge, fast on whatever day you want". Not, "nah man, have the sabbath any day you want, God's commandment doesn't matter."

Not true. It is also talking about our liberty in Christ. We can eat whatever we like and we should not judge others if their conscience condemns them for eating certain things. Paul is drawing from our liberty in regards to the Sabbath by saying that one man esteems one day above another. For he that regards that day regards it unto the Lord. The Lord's day is the Sabbath.

5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord...." (Romans 14:5-6).

Your not wanting to see what it plainly says above here because you don't like what it says. Good thing I have no hang ups about what it says (so as to desire to want to change what this text plainly says).

Okay, so Here in Colossians, Pau was writing to Gentiles. Right? I think we can both agree on that. Well, follow me here.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Meat: First off, if gentiles eat anything, all meats, without judging, and the church Paul is writing to, is surrounded by, and in the middle of gentiles, who would judge them for eating meat? Unless they were abstaining from certain meats.

Drink: Gentiles at this time, observed many feasts. The feast of saturnalia, the feast of Ishtar, etc. All of them were observed with large quantities of alcohol. Gentiles drank often, they saw it, and being drunk as synonymous with spirituality. So, why would the be judged if they were drinking? Gentiles greatly respected, and cherished alcohol and it's effects. They weren't being judged because they were drinking, but because they weren't getting drunk anymore.

Holy Days: Can man make a day holy? No. God gave His people Holy days to follow. The gentiles had several gods, and all of which had their own celebrations. So, why would they be judged? Unless it was for a God that was not their own, and was in fact, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

New Moon: What do gentiles have to do with new moons? Absolutely nothing. Gentiles have worshipped the sun for thousands of years. They have since long before Jesus used the sun to regulate and determine their calendar years. They were being judged regarding new moons, because according to God, and the Torah, the moon, and more specifically the new moon, was how they were to determine when the new month came. Even today, Judah still uses the new moon (which is a phase of the moon) to determine when a new month starts. They were being judged because they were doing exactly the opposite of the gentiles they were surrounded by. The calendar we use today is taken from these gentiles that were judging them. We observe new months and such based on the locations of the sun, whereas, God had His people use a calendar that was reliant on the phases of the moon, not the positioning of the sun.

Sabbath Days: It's plural. Why? Because, several of the holy days God gave to us, have sabbaths. Sukkot is coming up this friday. The first, and the last day of Sukkot are sabbath days, not to mention trumpets, atonement, and the regular sabbath days. All of these are Sabbath days. Why were they being judged for them? Because, gentiles, especially around this time (1st century) hated the jews and thought they were lazy because it wasn't normal for people to take days off of work. Let alone the weeks taken off by jews each year according to the days the Torah gives them.

You lost me. But that's okay. Paul clearly says that we are to not judge according to Sabbaths. This means you cannot judge according to Sabbaths. Period.

There is no moral law, that's a man-made term.

Not really.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law..."
(Romans 2:14).

Now, what possible law can the Gentiles do by nature within the Law? The ceremonial laws like the Sabbaths or the dietary laws or the laws on animal sacrifices? No. What about the judicial laws? Did they keep the exact prescribed punishments that God gave to the Israelites? No. The only things within the Law that the Gentiles could do by nature is the Moral Law. Today, most people in the Gentile world generally know that murder is wrong, abusing children is wrong, stealing is wrong. This is something instinctual. It is something that they could do by nature.

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:33).

The whole law deals with things like that. There is no moral law in the bible, the term doesn't even exist. The only thing that was done away with, was the priesthood. It itself wasn't even done away with really, but Jesus Himself is our Priest now. Whereas before we had priests from the children of Aaron, of the tribe of Levi, now we have Jesus.

The Old Testament mentions a three fold structure of God's laws that were for the Old Covenant.
They are called: commandments, statutes (ordinances), and judgments. You will see it several times in OT Scripture.

The priesthood was changed, that was the only change in the law. The law that we are freed from, was the law of the adulterous bride. We were once married to God, as Israel. But, because we kept being unfaithful, He put us away. According to the Torah, the only way to remarry anyone as a wife put away, was for the husband to die, which meant living until the death of the husband as a curse. No one would associate with you, and you couldn't remarry. Well, God was our husband, so He had to come down and die to for us to free us from that. The reason He resurrected was so we'd have an eligible bachelor to be married to. He brought us back to Him, by His death. The law doesn't just go away.

No. A lot more was changed besides the priesthood. It says if the priesthood changed, then the Law must be changed, too (Hebrews 7:12). Which Laws? Jesus said to turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. God told Peter to eat unclean animals. All food can be sanctified by the Word of God and prayer now. Circumcision salvationism was condemned by Paul.

Right, I definitely agree that there are consequences for breaking the law, the law is the Torah. And you'll never know if you're breaking the Torah, if you don't pay attention to it. Can we fulfill the Torah? Eh, I mean mostly yes. But we will obviously sin, no one is perfect.

When I say that there are consequences, I am saying there are consequences to one's soul in the after life if they break God's Eternal Moral Laws and they do not repent of such a thing.

The change in the law paul was talking about in Hebrews 7, if you read it, was talking about the priesthood. That was the necessary change in the law, the priesthood. Like I said, before, the only priests that God would accept were the sons of Aaron of the tribe of Levi. Jesus is the only Priest, EVER to have NOT been not only of Levi, but also the son of Aaron.

Yes, I am aware of the quote I made. I know what verse it is. I quoted it all the time. But it is not solely talking about the Laws involving the priesthood. There are many other changes involving God's laws between the Old and the New Covenants. A simple side by side comparison (that is not biased) will easily see these changes.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My apologies, completely read over the first question. I don't think keeping the sabbath is a salvation issue. I do think, if you don't desire to keep the correct sabbath, that you should question whether or not you are saved though.

Man says to keep Sabbath on one day, God another. left or Right. Which way are you going to turn?

I think it's possible to enter heaven if we do away with one of the commandments, but not all of them. If we do away with all of the Torah, and teach others to do the same, I don't think such a person is saved. Because His spirit living in us, will make us want to fulfill those things, even though we aren't able to perfectly keep them.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

We see that a hardened heart is what keeps us from keeping the statutes, and judgements of God, but a softened heart will make us desire to keep them.

I don't believe that our keeping them is what saves us, otherwise no one would be saved. It's a faith issue. So long as we have faith that God is what justifies us, or more specifically Jesus, then even though we'll sin, we'll be fine. But, if we don't desire to keep Torah, then we don't love God, because it's what He asks us to do. Otherwise, we're stuck trying to do the impossible. We're trying to avoid sin, without looking with the lens that shows us what sin is, and we try to obey God, with things God didn't give us to obey Him with.

He already told us what obedience to Him looks like, and it's in Torah. People say that there's 613... but that's not so.

A lot of those were given to levites, levite priests, kings, slave owners, slaves, Godly-ordained judges, women, children, farmers, laws specifically for the land, etc. My point is, when it's all said and done, there's really only like 150-200, and all of them are easy to do. Especially since - I live in America - and there's hundreds of thousands of laws for me to follow here.

The feasts can't be done away with though. Why? Because, Jesus fulfilled the first 4 spring feasts when He first came. He is going to fulfill the 3 fall feasts when He comes back. The first one is trumpets (revelations tells us He comes back at the sound of a trumpet) then the one after that is atonement (which is His judgement), and the last one is sukkot, or Tabernacles (which is Him coming to live down here on Earth with us for 1000 years.). How are the feast days done away with, if the apostles kept them in the NT, they kept them historically until the 3rd century when the Romans forced them to stop, and Jesus Himself is going to fulfill them at His second coming?

I am not going to endlessly debate God's laws with you. You believe the way you do for your own reasons. I am interested in what God's Word says plainly. If the Sabbath or Sabbaths were binding under the New Covenant, then we would need a clear command telling us this. There is not even an indirect command suggesting such a thing under the New Testament.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Good post. It's true Jesus did say whoever believes in him will have Eternal life. Is it just the fact that only a small population of the world believes in him?

I think Jesus' point is to serve as a warning. In the parable of the banquet there's also an underlying statement about how the powerful and the elite don't want any part of the kingdom, and so the kingdom is given to the poor, to sinners, tax collectors, prostitutes and others deemed by society as undesirable and worthless. Broad is the way to destruction because it's easy, the narrow way of the kingdom is difficult. As we read through the Gospels we find that Jesus' way is incredibly difficult, in large part because He is turning the world upside down.

Let's go back to the opening of Mark's Gospel, Jesus says, "The kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the good news!" and it might be easy for us to think Jesus just means, "be sorry for your sins, believe in Me, so you can go to heaven" but that's not what He means. For one the kingdom of God (kingdom of Heaven in Matthew's Gospel) isn't "heaven", it refers to the reign of God, God's royal authority, and throughout the Gospels Jesus is talking about what it's like for God to be king. For some contemporary context we find an episode in the writings of Flavius Josephus, the Jewish historian; Josephus was a Jew serving in the Roman military during the Jewish War, upon finding a Jewish Zealot (who desired the violent overthrow of Rome for the sake of Jewish independence) he turns to the young man and says "repent and follow me", by which means, change how you're thinking and what you're doing and come do things my way. When Jesus says repent and believe the good news of the kingdom, He is inviting His listeners to change how they think and do things. The word translated as "repent" is metanoia, literally a change of mind, or over-mind. Jesus is telling us to stop thinking this way, and to think differently, to see things differently, and do things differently. He says "the greatest among you is your slave", that is a radically different way of thinking, slaves aren't important in society, they are basically at the very, very bottom--but Jesus says the greatest in God's kingdom is the slave. The way God is king is that the least are greatest, God identifies with the lowly, the downtrodden, the poor, the hungry, the weak, the unwanted, the unloved. That's why "Blessed are the poor, for theirs is the kingdom of God".

This is an upside down thing. The way of the world is such that might makes right, violence is the ordinary course, human governments rule through force and violence. But that isn't how God is king, God is king through sacrifice, love, and service. The kingdom of God isn't shaped like the great palaces of the Roman emperors, the kingdom of God is shaped like the Son of God hanging on a cross crying out, "Forgive them Father, they don't know what they're doing".

So of course the way is narrow. Because it's hard enough to love your friends, but Jesus tells us to love our enemies, and in fact the love of our enemies is precisely the way of God, "Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful" "for He is good and kind to the thankless and the wicked" "He sends His rain upon the just and the unjust" and St. Paul tells us, that even when we were God's enemies Christ died for us, freely justifying us by His grace therefore "God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us". Jesus says He came for the unrighteous and the sick, St. Paul elsewhere says "This is a trustworthy saying worthy of full acceptance, Christ came to save sinners, and I am the chief of sinners."

The way of the world is abundantly easy. It's easy to seek our own desires, satisfy our own lusts, to hold grudges, to hate others, to be spiteful, and mean, and cruel, and to step on the necks of others to try and lift ourselves up and try and take power. It's much harder to intentionally be the one whose neck is stepped on, it's much harder to refuse to strike back when struck first. It's far more difficult to love those that hate you, to bless those that curse you, to pray for those who persecute you. Of course it's more difficult.

It's also far more difficult to hope for the salvation of our enemies than to hope they "get what they deserve". It's easy to wish a person like Adolf Hitler to be burning in the deepest darkest pits of Hell than to hope that he found mercy in the grace of God. It's easy to hope for a human sort of justice where good guys get rewarded and bad guys get punished (and we, of course, are always the good guys and they, of course, are always the bad guys). It's far more difficult to hope for that Divine Justice which does not simply reward or punish, but actually makes things right again. It's easy to be like the workers in the field who showed up early and then, at the end of the day, complained that they were paid the same amount as those who showed up at the last hour--we want more, we want what we think we deserve, and we want others to receive what we think they deserve: but we have a God who is good and just and loving.

Instead of thinking about who is "in" and who is "out", we should instead be thinking about how we, as sinners regenerated by the mercy of God who has condescended to meet us in our wretchedness in Jesus ought to go about being the people of Jesus in the world toward others. The Gospel we preach should be good news for sinners, good news about the God who is king, about the Lord who died and rose again for the whole world. About the God who is going to make all things new, that the dead will be raised, and all creation renewed, even unto the ages of the ages.

-CryptoLutheran