Feminism

[bèlla]

Some of the basic ideas of Feminism of equal pay, ending sexual harassment etc. were fine. I think many folks don't like the monster it has mutated into as being an ongoing Jihad against white males etc. Hollywood seems to provide us with the best examples of this.

Great observation. I had a conversation with my aunt on Hollywood the other day and she said the same. She mentioned the absence of male heroes and how women are frequently the ones who save the day.

She gave examples where the male character is overtaken and the woman survives the skirmish and emerges as the victor. She felt the men were being portrayed as weaklings and lamented the rise of ‘woman as protector’ that movies are promoting.

They kill off loved male characters, so they can replace them with Woke characters

I remember reading something similar about the Harry Potter movies. The director liked Hermione and spruced up her character in the movies at the expense of Ron. He even took his lines from the books and gave them to her. The movies made her more likable than Rowling did.

 

[durangodawood]

Do you think they’re incompatible or two sides of the same coin and we’re missing the point?

Short answer: I do think Jesus points to the primacy of the individual human soul above all cultural conventions. And I do think that conflicted with a culture that regarded female human souls as fundamentally unsuited for authority.

I'm struck by the real lack of even a hint in Jesus' words regarding the patriarchal elements in Paul. But I am a casual reader of the Bible, and not a student. So I may be missing something.

 

[zephcom]

Are they wrong to be “scared silly?” Or have we given them a reason to be concerned? Do you feel its acceptable for them to be oppressed?

It isn't acceptable for men to be oppressed. I just don't think that is happening.

Men live in a world that has been carefully crafted for them to be dominant. They fear loosing that dominance. But it is important to understand that loosing one's dominance is not the same thing as being oppressed.

Couple the issue of women striving to achieve equality with minorities striving for the same goal, it is understandable that white men especially feel like they are being attacked from all sides.

Men in general and especially white men in America have a long history of being raised from children that it is their exclusive role in society to be the 'provider' for their family units. The religion of America teaches that and the culture of America teaches that.

The sexes have long been forced into roles that may or may not suit each and every person. Feminism is the force which says that the women in America have the same 'right' to be the breadwinner for the family as a man. And the converse is also true, men have the same 'right' to be the keeper of the home and raiser of the children as a woman.

Sexual stereotypes are every bit as corrosive to a culture as are racial stereotypes.

 

[Silmarien]

The feminist movement promised equality and choice for women. Has it achieved its aim? Have women leveled the playing field? Or have we paid a heavy price by embracing its principles?

What are the pros and cons of its continuance? Is it time for change?

Is the philosophy compatible with Christianity?

What is "the feminist movement"? There have been a number of different voices from the very beginning, with a number of different beliefs and goals. There are things that are associated with feminism in the public imagination that are adamantly opposed by certain types of feminists, so it is hard to say which goals in particular have and have not been met.

I think feminism is more a way of thinking than a set of principles--a greater awareness of gender issues and what role they play in society. I don't see any compatibility problems with Christianity, though I think there are a couple of popular feminist positions that would cause issues if held in an uncritical manner.

 

[bèlla]

Imagine that you're a feminist, you've spent 20 years of your life fighting for equal rights for women....and you achieve it. What do you do now? Pack up your things and go home? Of course not...

You find new things to complain about.

Brilliant assessment. I’ve listened to both camps. Feminist and male rights advocates. After a while it all sounds the same and equally crazy. Bandwagons have an uncanny ability to bring out virulent behavior. Good intentions become avenues for hate and open discrimination in the name of their cause.

After all, why should you give up your status as the leader of an important movement for equality just because you achieved equality. As long as there's any difference between men and women....you'll have something to complain about.

I think many based their identity on feminism. It has given them a sense of importance, power, meaning, etc. Its really a band-aid that protects their real issue with men.

You may have noticed that several posters claimed that feminism isn't done...that it has more to achieve....yet none of them actually said what it would need to achieve to be done.

That didn’t escape me. ;-)

I think its better to acknowledge your dissatisfaction than hide it behind a cause. Admit you don’t care for God’s setup. Say you desire more power and autonomy. There’s too much contortion. I liken it to Twister on steroids.

That's because there is no end-goal anymore. It doesn't matter if you're a feminist or an LGBTQ activist or a racial activist of some kind...the goal is to look for new things to complain about to keep yourself relevant. It's not as if any of them will simply go away once they achieve their goals.

Anger and complaint are the common denominators as is a perpetual victim status and oppressor that must be overthrown. They frequently see threats where none exist.

Perhaps at some point in the future, feminism will find a worthwhile pursuit....an actual inequality that needs corrected...as for now though, it's been reduced to professional victims and those who would scapegoat men for their failures.

Feminism appears to foster either or mentalities. There’s no middle ground. Getting someone to admit what’s wrong is very difficult. They’re quick to defend its necessity and turn a blind eye to the negative things taking place.

 

[A_Thinker]

claims must be substantiated. when you get the time you need to come back and prove these claims with some examples that we can look at.

thank you.

1. Sandi Toskvig
Earlier this month, at the Women’s Equality Party conference, Sandi Toskvig revealed to audible gasps from her audience that she is paid just 40% of her predecessor Stephen Fry’s salary, for hosting TV panel show QI.

The TV presenter and activist went on to say that she’s paid about the same as Alan Davies, who appears on the show as a contestant — while she’s the host.

“I temper this with the fact I love this show, and am the first woman to host such a show,” she added.

2. Martina Navratilova
Martina Navratilova — one of the most successful tennis players of all time — revealed in March that she was paid 10 times less than her male co-star John McEnroe for the 2017 Wimbledon tennis championship coverage.

She had won 18 Grand Slam singles titles during her 30-year career before becoming a commentator, and was reportedly told that she would be receiving a comparable salary to the men doing the same job.

But, she alleged, it was only when the BBC revealed its top-paid talent in the summer of 2017 that she found McEnroe, her co-star, had been receiving at least £150,000 — compared to her £15,000 salary.

3. Jennifer Lawrence
Early on in the gender pay gap debate of recent years, Lawrence spoke out about the difference in her pay for the film American Hustle, compared to her co-star Bradley Cooper.

According to an email leaked during a cyber attack on Sony Entertainment, Lawrence — at the time the world’s highest paid actress — received 7% of the film’s proceeds, compared to Cooper’s 9%.

In fact, according to reports, both Lawrence and Amy Adams, another co-star, both received 7% — while Christian Bale and the film’s director David O. Russell were all offered 9%. Initially, according to the leaked email, Lawrence was only offered 5%.

4. Hoda Kotb.
News anchor Kotb took over from Today show host Matt Lauer after he was fired following multiple allegations of sexual harassment and assault.

However, despite the fact she’s sitting in the same seat, speaking to the same audience, she’s doing it for a much smaller salary, according to reports from January.

Reports claimed she would be making $7 million (about £5.3 million) a year, or in other words, $18 million (about £13.8 million) less annually than Lauer.

 

[bèlla]

Oh I certainly do not pull men off the pedestal only to replace them with women.

Just pointing out how many men refuse to be accountable for their own situation and blame "feminism" instead.... as if feminism is the main reason why women arent flocking to them.

Thank you for explaining. That argument is made in both camps. Hopefully we can move beyond blame and reconnect with one another.

 

[ChicanaRose]

Or have we paid a heavy price by embracing its principles?

I've never been part of a feminist movement. I consider myself pro-women rather than a feminist. I agree with the article below that feminist movement can be exclusionary. For example, feminists excluded conservative, pro-life women from participating in the Women's March. Many of them also support gender-based abortion and can be hostile towards fellow women who do not share their views. Feminism is not necessarily a women and girl-friendly movement. It does not truly embrace diversity among women. For example, feminist women often do not support a woman's individual choice to stay at home and serve her husband. They look down on such woman who do not share their views. It operates more like a clique.

Why the 'Pro-Women' Movement Should and Will Replace Feminism | HuffPost

 

[Silmarien]

Short answer: I do think Jesus points to the primacy of the individual human soul above all cultural conventions. And I do think that conflicted with a culture that regarded female human souls as fundamentally unsuited for authority.

I'm struck by the real lack of even a hint in Jesus' words regarding the patriarchal elements in Paul. But I am a casual reader of the Bible, and not a student. So I may be missing something.

I don't actually read Paul as particularly patriarchal. Being a secular feminist, I was basically raised on the idea that it was Paul (and then Augustine) who had ruined Christianity for women, but when I actually read the Pauline Epistles, I was surprised by how off the mark that ultimately was.

Because there is a lot of interaction between Paul and female figures in those letters. He is often in contact with Priscilla and Aquila, never directing himself solely to Aquila but always to the couple as a unit (with the wife sometimes being mentioned first, oddly enough). Also of interest is Phoebe, whom he sends to Rome as his emissary, so while there are a couple strongly patriarchal passages in his writings, I think they're the exception, not the norm to what we actually see from Paul.

 

[bèlla]

Short answer: I do think Jesus points to the primacy of the individual human soul above all cultural conventions. And I do think that conflicted with a culture that regarded female human souls as fundamentally unsuited for authority.

I'm struck by the real lack of even a hint in Jesus' words regarding the patriarchal elements in Paul. But I am a casual reader of the Bible, and not a student. So I may be missing something.

I appreciate your willingness to expound. You’ve raised a question that I hope others will touch upon.

Are Paul’s comments on women compatible with Christ’s I’ve seen @Dave-W @AlexDTX @Paidiske @2PhiloVoid address this in the past. Can you share your thoughts please?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

1. Sandi Toskvig
Earlier this month, at the Women’s Equality Party conference, Sandi Toskvig revealed to audible gasps from her audience that she is paid just 40% of her predecessor Stephen Fry’s salary, for hosting TV panel show QI.

The TV presenter and activist went on to say that she’s paid about the same as Alan Davies, who appears on the show as a contestant — while she’s the host.

“I temper this with the fact I love this show, and am the first woman to host such a show,” she added.

2. Martina Navratilova
Martina Navratilova — one of the most successful tennis players of all time — revealed in March that she was paid 10 times less than her male co-star John McEnroe for the 2017 Wimbledon tennis championship coverage.

She had won 18 Grand Slam singles titles during her 30-year career before becoming a commentator, and was reportedly told that she would be receiving a comparable salary to the men doing the same job.

But, she alleged, it was only when the BBC revealed its top-paid talent in the summer of 2017 that she found McEnroe, her co-star, had been receiving at least £150,000 — compared to her £15,000 salary.

3. Jennifer Lawrence
Early on in the gender pay gap debate of recent years, Lawrence spoke out about the difference in her pay for the film American Hustle, compared to her co-star Bradley Cooper.

According to an email leaked during a cyber attack on Sony Entertainment, Lawrence — at the time the world’s highest paid actress — received 7% of the film’s proceeds, compared to Cooper’s 9%.

In fact, according to reports, both Lawrence and Amy Adams, another co-star, both received 7% — while Christian Bale and the film’s director David O. Russell were all offered 9%. Initially, according to the leaked email, Lawrence was only offered 5%.

4. Hoda Kotb.
News anchor Kotb took over from Today show host Matt Lauer after he was fired following multiple allegations of sexual harassment and assault.

However, despite the fact she’s sitting in the same seat, speaking to the same audience, she’s doing it for a much smaller salary, according to reports from January.

Reports claimed she would be making $7 million (about £5.3 million) a year, or in other words, $18 million (about £13.8 million) less annually than Lauer.

all these examples are illustrations of what I've already explained. these women didn't generate the same revenue and ratings as their male counterparts and therefore made less.

that's not gender inequality, that's show business.

 

[A_Thinker]

good job, but it's not my job to provide evidence for someone else's claim.

as I already explained with the WWE example, outside of underpaying people for their value, contracts are going to be negotiated based on ones value to the company. how do we know that these women were generating the same amount of revenue as the men to justify paying them more the same? the article doesn't go into this.

do these women get the same or higher ratings for their shows or appearances on TV as the men do?

it only says that men and women work at BBC and don't get paid the same. are they in the same positions and doing the same work on the same level of productivity for the company?

To look into this ... is to be shocked at how pervasive it is for women to be paid less then men doing the same work.

A place where one would expect this to be least likely ,,, is in the entertainment industry, where top actor salries ... are consistently higher than top actress salaries. Jennifer Lawrence was one of the first actresses to bring this to light. Despite being the most highly paid actress in the industry ... she accidentally discovered that all of her male co-stars ... were making considerably more than she.

I remember that when I first heard this, I was not so interested, because of the astronomical salaries entertainment figures earn regardless of gender, but research says that Jennifer Lawrence is correct. Men continue to be paid more ... then women who do comparable work. And there seems to be no true rationale for it.

I thought that we had advanced much further than we have ...

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Mo'nique is another example of this. she got on the breakfast club and dragged dave Chappelle and chris rock for the fact that they were making more money and suggesting that there was some gender inequality.

Mo'nique isn't even in the same league and dave Chappelle and chris rock as far as her ability to sell out arenas for her comedy specials. she spent most of her time talking about what she did 10 years ago.

 

[bèlla]

I've never been part of a feminist movement. I consider myself pro-women rather than a feminist.

How do you define pro-women?

Feminism is not necessarily a women and girl-friendly movement. It does not truly embrace diversity among women. For example, feminist women often do not support a woman's individual choice to stay at home and serve her husband. They look down on such woman who do not share their views. It operates more like a clique.

I think some of that is a reflection of how women relate to one another. They value agreement and when you disagree it can be viewed as a negative trait rather than a different perspective.

There is something inherent in protests and movements that bring out the unsavory aspects of our character. The more entrenched we become the greater our fervor and hardness.

I don’t know why that’s the case. But I’ve observed the same in both sexes. Maybe we’re meant to storm heaven in prayer and not the streets. I know I feel better when I’ve taken a concern to God. The result is never violent or discriminatory.

I agree that many feminists prefer a woman to make strides in the workforce at the expense of marriage and family. I’ve encountered my share in Christian and secular circles. Finding middle ground is a challenge. But I’m trying to understand what they’re after.

Christian women have a higher cause and calling. Sometimes I feel it is camouflaged by secular movements that provide the notice and voice they feel is lacking within the church.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

To look into this ... is to be shocked at how pervasive it is for women to be paid less then men doing the same work.

A place where one would expect this to be least likely ,,, is in the entertainment industry, where top actor salries ... are consistently higher than top actress salaries. Jennifer Lawrence was one of the first actresses to bring this to light. Despite being the most highly paid actress in the industry ... she accidentally discovered that all of her male co-stars ... were making considerably more than she.

I remember that when I first heard this, I was not so interested, because of the astronomical salaries entertainment figures earn regardless of gender, but research says that Jennifer Lawrence is correct. Men continue to be paid more ... then women who do comparable work. And there seems to be no true rationale for it.

I thought that we had advanced much further than we have ...

how much revenue does a film starring Jennifer Lawrence generate compared to films starring these unnamed male actors?

in the entertainment business you eat what you kill.

 

[bèlla]

I don't see any compatibility problems with Christianity, though I think there are a couple of popular feminist positions that would cause issues if held in an uncritical manner.

Can you expound on that? How do you address the subject as a believer and what are the pitfalls you feel we should avoid?

 

[A_Thinker]

1. Sandi Toskvig
Earlier this month, at the Women’s Equality Party conference, Sandi Toskvig revealed to audible gasps from her audience that she is paid just 40% of her predecessor Stephen Fry’s salary, for hosting TV panel show QI.

The TV presenter and activist went on to say that she’s paid about the same as Alan Davies, who appears on the show as a contestant — while she’s the host.

“I temper this with the fact I love this show, and am the first woman to host such a show,” she added.

2. Martina Navratilova
Martina Navratilova — one of the most successful tennis players of all time — revealed in March that she was paid 10 times less than her male co-star John McEnroe for the 2017 Wimbledon tennis championship coverage.

She had won 18 Grand Slam singles titles during her 30-year career before becoming a commentator, and was reportedly told that she would be receiving a comparable salary to the men doing the same job.

But, she alleged, it was only when the BBC revealed its top-paid talent in the summer of 2017 that she found McEnroe, her co-star, had been receiving at least £150,000 — compared to her £15,000 salary.

3. Jennifer Lawrence
Early on in the gender pay gap debate of recent years, Lawrence spoke out about the difference in her pay for the film American Hustle, compared to her co-star Bradley Cooper.

According to an email leaked during a cyber attack on Sony Entertainment, Lawrence — at the time the world’s highest paid actress — received 7% of the film’s proceeds, compared to Cooper’s 9%.

In fact, according to reports, both Lawrence and Amy Adams, another co-star, both received 7% — while Christian Bale and the film’s director David O. Russell were all offered 9%. Initially, according to the leaked email, Lawrence was only offered 5%.

4. Hoda Kotb.
News anchor Kotb took over from Today show host Matt Lauer after he was fired following multiple allegations of sexual harassment and assault.

However, despite the fact she’s sitting in the same seat, speaking to the same audience, she’s doing it for a much smaller salary, according to reports from January.

Reports claimed she would be making $7 million (about £5.3 million) a year, or in other words, $18 million (about £13.8 million) less annually than Lauer.

Today show ratings have not been lower with Hoda Kotb ... then they were with Matt Lauer ...

NBC's 'Today Show' Ratings Soaring Without Matt Lauer

 

[A_Thinker]

how much revenue does a film starring Jennifer Lawrence generate compared to films starring these unnamed male actors?

in the entertainment business you eat what you kill.

These actors were all in the same movies with Jennifer Lawrence ...

 

[Nithavela]

he may have been making the point that maternity leave would have women taking off from work for very long periods of time.

And for good reasons. Countries with paid maternity leave score far higher in a lot of areas.

you mentioned(sarcastically...I hope) that children aren't of value.

Human beings in general, really. Children are mostly fine, but they invariably grow up to become adults.

 

[bèlla]

I don't actually read Paul as particularly patriarchal. Being a secular feminist, I was basically raised on the idea that it was Paul (and then Augustine) who had ruined Christianity for women, but when I actually read the Pauline Epistles, I was surprised by how off the mark that ultimately was.

I don’t see him as patriarchal either. Romans blew my mind. I appreciated his willingness to tackle difficult subjects. He didn’t shy away from challenges. I had a greater sense of my place in the kingdom. It wasn’t diminished in my opinion.