Feminism

[Nithavela]

the WWE has had similar situations where they give out contracts to their performers and tell them to not discuss their contracts with other employees of the company. this is between men. this is based on how valuable one is to the company. one person is more profitable to the company than another and makes more money. the mistake happens when an employee increases in value but is not paid in accordance with his value to the company.

point being it's about how valuable you are to the company.

I wouldn't call the WWE a model for how to treat your "performers".

John Oliver did a report on that a few months ago.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I wouldn't call the WWE a model for how to treat your "performers".

John Oliver did a report on that a few months ago.

neither would I...…...and I didn't.

 

[Paidiske]

can you provide an example where this actually happened where a woman went into the same position doing the same work for the same time and was paid less solely because she was woman? you've explained how it can happen but where has this actually taken place?

for example, a man went into the same position as her when she left and made more money than she did doing the exact same thing on the same level.

I know that it's very common. I know that it's happened to me (in fact I was doing more work, was more qualified and was paid less). I know that there have been studies done on it and it's widely reported. But it's after midnight here, I need to get to bed, and after today I'm going on retreat (including no internet) for several days, so I won't have time to google for you any time soon.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I know that it's very common. I know that it's happened to me (in fact I was doing more work, was more qualified and was paid less). I know that there have been studies done on it and it's widely reported. But it's after midnight here, I need to get to bed, and after today I'm going on retreat (including no internet) for several days, so I won't have time to google for you any time soon.

claims must be substantiated. when you get the time you need to come back and prove these claims with some examples that we can look at.

thank you.

 

[Larniavc]

An Atheist who believes the world should revolve around their own personal ideas is too far gone to reach.

As convenient as it may be to claim that, I do not believe the world revolves around my own personal ideas.

 

[Larniavc]

Extreme forms of equality do not care if you earned something or if you have some superior skill. No one can be too high above others because it's unfair to everyone who is average. The Russian communist did not like the Ukrainian farmers and so they stole their land and caused a famine.

What does that have to do with feminism?

 

[Larniavc]

Living near and working with people who are entirely different culturally is much easier to talk about than to practice.

Dunno about that. I live in Liverpool in the UK. Very cosmopolitan. I’ve not noticed what your dad says to be true.

Anecdotes, eh?

 

[bèlla]

I do not think how the loud show feminism is great. The goal is equality not revenge. But I do think the majority think diferent than the loud.

I highlighted your comment because it zeroes in on what we’re seeing today. The ideals being championed are vengeful. And at times it seems their voices are the ones you hear most.

 

[Larniavc]

What examples are there where a man and a woman are working the same job, same position, doing the same work, where a woman is making less money solely because she is a woman?

How the BBC gender pay story has unfolded

Took all of 30 seconds.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I do have to wonder why anyone would be against equality.

It doesn't matter. The traditional social order is long gone.

 

[bèlla]

They understood that an intact family creates a local loyalty. Those with good home lives will place their loyalty first on their family, then on their neighborhood and local community. They have no loyalty to international organizations, and less for national or state governments.

My grandparents were like that. In the same measure you’ve mentioned. I’ve watched myself move in a similar direction. I’m not a nationalist or the champion of any cause save God and my purpose. I have an affinity for marriage and appreciation for the sexes and our divine makeup.

But I haven’t attached myself to any movement or adopted its label as my own. I don’t seek my identity in them. Perhaps its for the reasons you’ve shared.

God never created women to subservient to men, but as co partners. While we are all complete as men or women, we are increased when joined together. Mutual submission means mutual respect.

I agree wholeheartedly. It is a wondrous feeling when we’re working together and on one accord.

In general, Christianity has done more to liberate women, than the feminist movement.

Absolutely.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What examples are there where a man and a woman are working the same job, same position, doing the same work, where a woman is making less money solely because she is a woman?

Another question might be, do women really produce as much doing the same job as a man. That women are as productive as men is questionable and should be proven before it is the basis for equal pay.

One reason that men generally outperform women in the workplace is that we are naturally competitive, either with others or ourselves.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

How the BBC gender pay story has unfolded

Took all of 30 seconds.

good job, but it's not my job to provide evidence for someone else's claim.

as I already explained with the WWE example, outside of underpaying people for their value, contracts are going to be negotiated based on ones value to the company. how do we know that these women were generating the same amount of revenue as the men to justify paying them more the same? the article doesn't go into this.

do these women get the same or higher ratings for their shows or appearances on TV as the men do?

it only says that men and women work at BBC and don't get paid the same. are they in the same positions and doing the same work on the same level of productivity for the company?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Before we passed the 19th Amendment, all we did was ride around on bicycles built for two and sip cherry phosphates. Now we've got AIDS, mass shootings and Miley Cyrus. I rest my case.

Hey, what wrong with...(never mind).

 

[bèlla]

I do find it interesting that we can say that there are some feminists that are bad and went too far, but all patriarchal men are despots that deserve to be overthrown.

Excellent observation. I’ve noticed similar black and white approaches when it comes to men. The suggestion that all are this or that is errant.

How does feminism square with the Bible? It's hard to escape that woman was created for man, and that part of the curse had woman looking to overthrow their husbands... Paul's call for a wife to submit to her husband restores the order.

So do the Bible does not square with feminism in terms of equality of the sexes. Equality before God in terms of salvation, yes. Equality of roles, purpose, etc., it doesn't read that way.

I’ve observed differences in gifting too. I may share the same gift as a man. But our approach and output isn’t identical. However, they’re complementary and when the two are joined the whole is good.

I don’t think it was God’s intention for either to go it alone. We each have attributes the other lacks and requires for betterment.

While we may apply the teachings to today's culture differently, in the plain reading the Bible is not a feminist document.

I don’t believe it is either.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

the WNBA is a great example of women doing a similar job as men and getting significantly less.

it's not because of gender inequality though. it's because no one cares about the WNBA. it's unwatchable and thus generates little to no revenue. in fact, it's mostly subsidized by the NBA.

if you don't make money...…….you don't make money.

 

[Nithavela]

Another question might be, do women really produce as much doing the same job as a man. That women are as productive as men is questionable and should be proven before it is the basis for equal pay.

One reason that men generally outperform women in the workplace is that we are naturally competitive, either with others or ourselves.

That competition can also lead to men sabotaging each other, and in many jobs cooperation is more valuable than competition.

The burden of proof lies with you to show that women as a rule are less productive. I doubt you will deliver.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That competition can also lead to men sabotaging each other, and in many jobs cooperation is more valuable than competition.

The burden of proof lies with you to show that women as a rule are less productive. I doubt you will deliver.

Nay, just the opposite. Women have to prove that they are as productive as men (pregnancy drastically reduces a woman's productivity).

 

[bèlla]

I'm not happy with "isms" in general. I don't believe that feminism has achieved much. The social engineering taking place in education has made women stronger by denigrating and belittling men (in my part of the world at least).

I’m hearing similar complaints from men and women. Especially Christian mothers. They’ve openly acknowledged the war on boys and the harmful effects its had.

I recall feminists complaining that men made them just sex objects. Now the way many women dress, they invite the charge of total hypocrisy and they have made themselves exactly what they profess to despise.

I recall a thread on another site where the women celebrated being liberated from lady-like behavior. They had the freedom to be sexually adventurous without expectations of restraint. I remember wondering why womanliness was worthy of being thrown off and discarded. It sounded strange. I didn’t see the upside.

It's a shame. It's even worse when Christian women feel the need to throw out God's word and embrace the world's view of what it means to be a woman.

I don’t think this is true of all Christian women. But a large number have been impacted by societal viewpoints (as have men) and they come out eventually.

As a single, I’m a harmless fly on the wall and most speak candidly in my presence. There are moments when I’m deeply saddened at the things I hear about the opposite sex. I see them wresting for control and have encountered the same in other settings.

I think we must be mindful of the fall and the impact it has on our nature. Even when we think we aren’t desiring to wrest control its always there lurking in the background.

There are times when I need a head check and have to humble myself because I feel its presence. When wrong thinking is validated by believers and applauded; we’re going to stumble.

 

[bèlla]

If men as a whole acted Godly towards women there wouldn't have been a need for a movement.

I think men and women should exhibit godliness to one another. Do you agree that women dislike each other? And if that’s true, why do they resent when men behave the same (in your opinion)?