Fellowship

[Krissakitty]

Fellowship is something that I've always had problems with. When I attend Church, I feel that I am either outright ostracized, kept at arm's length, or (on the other side of the extreme) held up as a poster child for that particular Congregation's supposed diversity. The lack of Christian fellowship in my life drove me to the brink of atheism. It made me feel as though God Himself wanted nothing to do with me.

So, how does it work? I feel like their's some big secret to life that I haven't been let in on... and it's even worse at Churches. The one place people are supposed to be able to go and feel connected with God and one another, I feel that I have to put up all my defenses for fear that I'll have to explain my very existence to everyone in the congregation.

I guess I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced similar problems with some of the Churches they've visited or been a part of, and how they handed it.

 

[1watchman]

The explanation for your wonder, friend, is your ref. to being "transexual". That is clearly contrary to the Word of God. One who is confused about sexuality and seeking help would be accepted, but actually living and enjoying this perversion of nature is going to leave you outside of true Christianity. As a retired family and mental health counselor, I am speaking of reality here, and not condemning you. You may write me at my profile if you wish some help.

- 1 Watchman

 

[Krissakitty]

The explanation for your wonder, friend, is your ref. to being "transexual". That is clearly contrary to the Word of God. One who is confused about sexuality and seeking help would be accepted, but actually living and enjoying this perversion of nature is going to leave you outside of true Christianity. As a retired family and mental health counselor, I am speaking of reality here, and not condemning you. You may write me at my profile if you wish some help.

- 1 Watchman

What does being a family and mental health counselor have to do with this? The DSM-IV is completely backwards on the issue of transsexuality, and the DSM-V is going to be even worse. Unfortunately, the reality of being transgender and what people think they know about transsexuals are two completely different things. That being said, if you've done your homework on this issue, you would know that there are biological factors involved in one being gay or transgender. I can write off promiscuity (whether hetero or homosexual) as being bad for one's health because of STDs and the like, and it's easy to see why it's bad for one's mental health because of the fact that people who engage in that type of behavior sometimes use it as a tool to feel better about themselves.

On the issue of transsexuality, I can only speak from personal experience and from my interactions with other transsexuals, both male-to-female and female-to-male. The idea that all transsexuals are harlots, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], prostitutes, and/or druggies is completely false. There are certainly quite a few transsexuals that fall into sex work, and it really sucks because they get into that line of work because they can't find employment elsewhere. That generally leads to drug abuse because they feel horrible about the life they've been forced into. On the one hand, you have a life driven by madness hoping that no one finds out about this filthy secret of yours. On the other, you have the bliss of knowing that you can be yourself, no matter what the cost. That's the choice I had to make. I lost a military career, was nearly homeless several times, and have been harassed and had my life threatened multiple times. Why? I remember learning about the early martyrs, and being taught that "No one will die for something that they don't believe is completely true." That's the way I've lived my life post-transition. Currently, I'm going to school to earn my Paramedic certification, and am now a part of a beautiful family. Why? God has been with me. Why has God been with me? I dunno. Maybe it's because He knows my heart, and knows that my desire to transition was not born from some sick desire to take advantage of women in the restrooms (which is something else transsexual women are accused of), or to trick unassuming men into having sex with me. My transition was the best thing that happened to me, outside of knowing Christ. Now, I could go into the ethics and philosophy of this, and even quote several Bible verses to the contrary of what you have said, but I won't.

In conclusion, God chose this path for me for a reason. If I had to guess, I think a lot of it has to do with stepping out of my comfort zone, and seeing people as broken, yet beautiful, in need of someone to put them back together again. On the other hand, I might be hellbound with no hope of salvation, because I have been so blinded by life's experiences that I can no longer see truth or discern what is righteous for myself or anyone else. Or maybe that's why I can't find a good Church in the first place? I'm too argumentative, and people don't like that. However, I don't see how one can live their life not questioning things, and accepting what is told to them at face value. If people didn't do that, we'd still be in the dark ages, hoping the Black Death would just leave us alone. Considering what little we know about GLBT issues.

Oh, and I guess it's perfectly okay for my daughter to want to play with Tonka trucks and GI Joes, but not okay for my son to want to wear nail polish and jewelry?

 

[Franny50]

Hi.Kris,

I have also worked as a Social Worker/Mental Health Counselor.I applaud you for your continung your education to become a paramedic.You sound very well adjusted to me.You have a clear sense of values(you're against promiscuity)and you have had the strength to deal with the loss of a military career and almost becoming homeless.I think it is dangerous when any mental health professional imposes their religious or personal bias.You sound like you want the same thing a lot of us are searching for;acceptance.Please do not give up on finding a church that is more accepting.And by the way,sometimes we become argumentative because we are angry and are afraid of becoming rejected,so it is sort of a defense mechanism.Have you tried attending an ELCA service.They are a liberal lutheran church.

 

[Krissakitty]

Hi.Kris,

Have you tried attending an ELCA service.They are a liberal lutheran church.

Thanks for the info, Fran. ^.^ I've been curious about the ELCA tag above a lot of the Lutheran Church signs in the area.

 

[Pal Handy]

Fellowship is something that I've always had problems with. When I attend Church, I feel that I am either outright ostracized, kept at arm's length, or (on the other side of the extreme) held up as a poster child for that particular Congregation's supposed diversity. The lack of Christian fellowship in my life drove me to the brink of atheism. It made me feel as though God Himself wanted nothing to do with me.

So, how does it work? I feel like their's some big secret to life that I haven't been let in on... and it's even worse at Churches. The one place people are supposed to be able to go and feel connected with God and one another, I feel that I have to put up all my defenses for fear that I'll have to explain my very existence to everyone in the congregation.

I guess I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced similar problems with some of the Churches they've visited or been a part of, and how they handed it.

Christ is not people in a church...
Jesus Christ is the one who loves you absolutely.

Many people believe that because God is all powerful, somehow He is controlling all things.

I don't buy that because if God was controlling all things, He would be
controlling evil and we know that isn't right because Christ came
to the earth to destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus Christ gave everything for you...He didn't hold anything back.

Jesus Christ loved others absolutely and did all that was perfect and right
in God's eyes and yet He was accused of being of the devil and crucified.

So you must see that this world and people are not perfect and only God
will love us absolutely and completely.

Not saying that you will never experience God's love through others but
God desires that you would come to know Him and return His love for you
and to place Him above all others. Then God can unlock all the blessings He has
for you and yes that will be in fellowship with others.

There is nothing you could ever do to cause God to love you any more
that He loves you right now.

There is nothing you could ever do to cause God to love you any less
than He loves you at this moment.

God in Christ loves you absolutely and completely.

Emanuel, God with man, Jesus Christ the expressed character and
person of God in human form...

You need to know Christ...

If you look to others in this world, Christians or not to satisfy
your soul with the hunger you have for real love, you will sooner
or later be disatisfied, disapointed and discouraged.

Jesus Christ loves you so begin to invite Him into your life.

Jesus Christ is a real person not a beautiful concept we hear about
in church but Jesus wants to come to you in such and intimate and personal
way that He will melt your heart with His love.

Ask Jesus to fill this longing for fellowship with Himself first and
when you find the greatest love of your life, all else will fall into place.

Your hunger for more is a gift from God but you need to
focus it on the one who is jealous for your love and attention.

Yes..jealous...for you and your love and attention.

Our God is a consuming fire...our God is Love....

 

[jennimatts]

Fellowship is something that I've always had problems with. When I attend Church, I feel that I am either outright ostracized, kept at arm's length...

I guess I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced similar problems with some of the Churches they've visited or been a part of, and how they handed it.

Yes, the church I grew up in never really accepted me. But there were things going on in the church leadership involving gossip, greed, power, money, etc. As an adult, I left that church and went elsewhere. Of course I also had personal reasons for going elsewhere.

I still find fellowship difficult but at least there is a sense of trust and respect for the leaders at our current church.

 

[Franny50]

As a single middle aged woman,I always felt sort of out of place in catholic church,as most of the attendies seemed to be families with children.I also felt the church wasn't very welcoming and did not give me a sense of community.During and after mass,I felt I was in the middle of one big clique and couldn't wait to get home.

 

[jennimatts]

...being "transexual"... is clearly contrary to the Word of God.

I disagree. There's nothing about simply being transsexual that is "clearly contrary" to the Bible.

The one place people are supposed to be able to go and feel connected with God and one another, I feel that I have to put up all my defenses for fear that I'll have to explain my very existence to everyone in the congregation.

Looks like the same holds true on CF...

One who is confused about sexuality and seeking help would be accepted, but actually living and enjoying this perversion of nature is going to leave you outside of true Christianity.

...and apparently God is taking some time off, so it's up to 1w to judge whether one is A. seeking help and accepted, or B. outside of true Christianity (as if those were the only possibilities).

Let's try answer C. a person can genuinely trust in God despite being transsexual. Being transsexual is no more a "perversion" than any other condition one might be born with.

Your phrase "perversion of nature" is inaccurate anyway since the earth is under the curse of sin, nature is a perversion of Gods creation.

 

[Krissakitty]

During and after mass,I felt I was in the middle of one big clique and couldn't wait to get home.

I know! I can't stand that feeling! And then, when you mention something to someone about feeling excluded, they tell you how "wonderful" you are in a way that makes you feel bad for mentioning it in the first place.

 

[stormdancer0]

While I do agree that having transsexual feelings can be something you're born with, that doesn't make it Godly. Sin has caused all manner of sickness and difficulties in our bodies, and I believe that feeling this way is caused by generation after generation of sin.

However, if I understand you correctly, you have already been physically altered by surgery, is that correct? It's not exactly something that can be undone, is it? So even if you wanted to change back, it would be impossible.

I personally would accept you, no matter what. Yes, I do believe it is wrong to change sexes. However, every day, people have face-lift surgery, breast implants, nose jobs - the list goes on forever. This is done so the person can be more comfortable in their own skin, just as yours was, but added to that in their case is vanity. Each one of these changes is a change to "who God made us to be." Are they doing wrong? Yes, in my opinion.

I don't have to agree with everything you do in order to be your friend, or your pastor. I do think rejecting someone because of a past decision is judgmental. I remember Jesus being friends with some people who made what others thought were questionable judgments, and rejecting those who were judging.

I guess I'm trying to say that from my understanding, changing your sex surgically is wrong. But it also is not a one-way ticket to hell.

 

[Krissakitty]

You stated your opinion very respectfully, and I think you're taking a very rational approach to the subject. At any rate, I have altered my body through hormone therapy, but it wasn't for cosmetic reasons. I altered my body very gently to make my outside match my inside. Face-lifts? Breast augmentation? These things don't interest me. As far as the actual topic of THE surgery in question goes, I don't plan on having THAT one. I hope to have an orchiectomy (a removal of the testicles) in the coming years, but I am waiting until my family is in a better financial position... and that is considered acceptable by Biblical standard. In Matthew 19:12, Jesus talks about threee different kinds of eunuchs, and doesn't have an admonishment for them. Isaiah 56:4-5 reads "For thus says the Lord: To the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, I will give, in my house and within my walls,
a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; ..." So, hopefully my previous rant directed at Mr. Watchman is more eloquently elaborated on in my preceding semi-intellectual endeavour.

 

[Pal Handy]

You stated your opinion very respectfully, and I think you're taking a very rational approach to the subject. At any rate, I have altered my body through hormone therapy, but it wasn't for cosmetic reasons. I altered my body very gently to make my outside match my inside. Face-lifts? Breast augmentation? These things don't interest me. As far as the actual topic of THE surgery in question goes, I don't plan on having THAT one. I hope to have an orchiectomy (a removal of the testicles) in the coming years, but I am waiting until my family is in a better financial position... and that is considered acceptable by Biblical standard. In Matthew 19:12, Jesus talks about threee different kinds of eunuchs, and doesn't have an admonishment for them. Isaiah 56:4-5 reads "For thus says the Lord: To the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, I will give, in my house and within my walls,
a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; ..." So, hopefully my previous rant directed at Mr. Watchman is more eloquently elaborated on in my preceding semi-intellectual endeavour.

Just remember that in the new life their is no need for sexual identity,
so all this effort you made down here was useless and really has no lasting effect as far as eternity.

Matthew 22:30
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage;
they will be like the angels in heaven.

God loves you as a person, not because you have male or female reproductive organs.

You can be a eunuch by choosing to refrain from sex.
Matthew 19:12
For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and
there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—
and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for
the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

I just want you to know that someday these things we wrestle
with of sexual identity will be gone and that the person you are
inside is more important than the person you try to project
yourself as on the outside.

To me you were born with a sexual identity.
If you are uncomfortable with that identity, why would
you want to change the outward when the whole matter
is in your heart.

You can live as a eunuch as Christ said for the kingdom of God
but Jesus never said to change your sexual identity.

What does it mean to be a eunuch for the kingdom?

It means you will not marry or have sex with others and you
will devout your whole life to serving Christ by preaching
or spreading the gospel, praying for others and living
your life not as your own to do with as you please but to please
the Lord...

Does all this fuss over sexual identity please the Lord?
Are you being a eunuch for Him or for you.

Jesus loves you very much and has a life for you but He won't
force that life on you. If you want to find His
words and use them to do what you want, that is not following
but justifying your actions with His misrepresented word.

Remember, God loves you and He is more interested in what is inside
you than what your sexual appearance is so why not deal with
the person inside and live as God has made you, a male...
a male that chooses to be a eunuch for the Lord by action and not
a surgical procedure.

 

[Speculative]

Hi Krissa,

In addition to the ELCA, which was mentioned earlier, I'd also like to make sure you know about the United Methodist Churches that also welcome GLBTQ members. They can be found at the Reconciling Ministries Network website at rmnetwork.org. I checked and it looks like there are a few ministries in Kansas--maybe one near you.

So, the first step would be getting involved in a church where you will be loved and accepted just the way God made you.

Secondly--and I'm not saying this is fair or right or anything, but I think it is reality nonetheless--you are in a position where you will likely be the one that needs to take more initiative than a lot of other people to make friends. Just speaking for myself, I would be a little nervous around you if you came to my church, because I don't personally know any transgendered people, and to my knowledge, there aren't any in our church, so I'd always be afraid that I'd say something stupid that would offend you.

In my case, this would manifest itself in that I would be hesitant to approach you and start a conversation with you until I knew you wouldn't get mad at me if I said something stupid. I think a lot of other people in my church might go overboard to make you feel welcome to the point where you might feel like the "token transgendered member"

Again, I'm not saying this is right, but I think most people would have one of those two reactions--but the good news is that with time, and once we got to know you, you would be loved and accepted just like anyone else in our church. I think you'd get along with my wife and our pastor right off the bat, but they're pretty exceptional people. In a smaller reconciling congregation, I think you are likely to meet a pastor that is sensitive to your situation and able to get you plugged into the fellowship of the chuch immediately. I hope and pray you find a place like this.

I hope some of this has helped. God Bless you.

 

[Franny50]

Hopefully kris,we will both find a new church home where we will feel as If we are part of the congregation.

 

[Krissakitty]

Hopefully kris,we will both find a new church home where we will feel as If we are part of the congregation.

I'll be visiting a congregation on Sunday, so here's hoping! ^.^

 

[Krissakitty]

Hi Krissa,

In my case, this would manifest itself in that I would be hesitant to approach you and start a conversation with you until I knew you wouldn't get mad at me if I said something stupid. I think a lot of other people in my church might go overboard to make you feel welcome to the point where you might feel like the "token transgendered member"

I completely understand that. Most trans folks are open to questions, and some are not. However, from what I've seen and experienced, most people don't know I'm trans unless I tell them. However, I try to be open about it when it comes to things like Women's ministries because I don't want anyone to feel decieved or that their "women only" space has been "invaded" by that one weirdo with the Y chromosome. Personally, if someone does take note of something about my appearance and asks me about it, I'll be open with them, and understand if they ask something that, to another trans person, might be offensive.

General rule of thumb: Ask about preferred pronouns and terms, but don't ask about anatomy or sexuality. If you wouldn't ask your sister, don't ask the "token transgender woman" in your congregation.

 

[Krissakitty]

You can be a eunuch by choosing to refrain from sex.
Matthew 19:12
For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and
there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—
and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for
the sake of the kingdom of heaven.

I just want you to know that someday these things we wrestle
with of sexual identity will be gone and that the person you are
inside is more important than the person you try to project
yourself as on the outside.

To me you were born with a sexual identity.
If you are uncomfortable with that identity, why would
you want to change the outward when the whole matter
is in your heart.

It's a lot easier to change one's outside to match one's inside than it is to get a labotomy. This is a question of the difference between me portraying a male, something that didn't work for me for over twenty years, and retaining my sanity by changing my outward appearance and behaviors to one that is better-suited for someone of my demeanor. I'm sure I'll be much more useful to the Kingdom of God with all my brain-meats intact, and functioning at full capacity... just sayin'.

 

[Pal Handy]

It's a lot easier to change one's outside to match one's inside than it is to get a labotomy. This is a question of the difference between me portraying a male, something that didn't work for me for over twenty years, and retaining my sanity by changing my outward appearance and behaviors to one that is better-suited for someone of my demeanor. I'm sure I'll be much more useful to the Kingdom of God with all my brain-meats intact, and functioning at full capacity... just sayin'.

Your choice...
Just bringing up the higher calling for you to consider.

God loves you and that is never in doubt...

All my answers have been found in Christ so that is why I alway
look to Him and His perspective.

God dealt with me on my attitude on transgender people
when He brought a man into my life who looked exactly like my
brother except that he dressed as a woman.

I knew then and there that God was teaching me how to love as He loves.

This person was so tormented by the conflict within him that
I prayed and asked God if there was something I might say to help him.

Pretty much what I posted earlier was what God gave me for him.

I hope it helps you to see that as you surrender to God, He will
guide you and cause you to be the PERSON He wants you to be.

God bless and I hope you find that place where people will love
you with the love of the Lord....

If you don't find that place right away, go back to the source of that love,
Jesus Christ and allow Him to love on you as no one else can....

 

[New_Believer]

Your choice...
Just bringing up the higher calling for you to consider.

God loves you and that is never in doubt...

All my answers have been found in Christ so that is why I alway
look to Him and His perspective.

God dealt with me on my attitude on transgender people
when He brought a man into my life who looked exactly like my
brother except that he dressed as a woman.

I knew then and there that God was teaching how to love as He loves.

This person was so tormented by the conflict within him that
I prayed and asked God if there was something I might say to help him.

Pretty much what I posted earlier was what God gave me for him.

I hope it helps you to see that as you surrender to God, He will
guide you and cause you to be the PERSON He wants you to be.

God bless and I hope you find that place where people will love
you with the love of the Lord....

If you don't find that place right away, go back to the source of that love,
Jesus Christ and allow Him to love on you as no one else can....

I was going to start posting scripture about why transgenderism is wrong until I read this. I applaud you for this response.

As a young child, I felt that I wanted to be a boy. I dressed like a boy, although I've never had physical attractions to girls, I've always been heterosexual. There was something in me that didn't feel right. I didn't like the things that other girls liked and I didn't like girl clothes. Well, eventually I grew out of that. I still have this distance from other females, like I can't relate to them, but I now know that it's because I have Asperger's Syndrome. I can't relate to others in general especially girls who like to talk about emotions. I guess I'm just trying to say that I understand what you're going through. I love you enough to not judge you for being transgender. And it's a shame if people are ostracizing you at church.

Now that I've said this, I want to ask you if God ever convicts you for being transgender. When we come to Christ we should be willing to turn from our old sinful ways. Have you ever thought that God made you the way He wants you to be? He loves you and wants to use you to serve Him. I pray that you're willing to give up your self and earthy desires so that He can truly use you.

Now go find a church that doesn't judge other people