He is the way
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The Pharisees wanted to glorify their selves, not God. Glory to God and Jesus Christ. They have done so much for us unworthy creatures. We will never be able to repay the debt.
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LDS False Gospel Spreader Joseph Smith
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He is the way
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I am here to educate people about what members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints believe and I still see so many comments of people telling us what we believe. Unfortunately they do not know what we believe. We are no longer polygamists and we still follow Christ's teachings. We do not believe that members of other churches are of the devil. The teachings of the Book of Mormon do not contradict the Bible. If you believe they do please give a citation.
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Here's a few quotes for your reading pleasure:
Joseph Smith said . . .
(Regarding Joseph Smith's alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him) . . . "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).
"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270).
(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism . . . ).
First--"Do you believe the Bible?"
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do."
Third--"Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings, page 119).
Brigham Young said. . .
"But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong," (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, 1855, p. 171).
John Taylor said . . .
"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsens . . . Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 1858, p. 167).
"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, 1863, p. 127).
James Talmage said . . .
"A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ," (The Articles of Faith, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, p. 182).
Bruce McConkie said . . .
"With the loss of the gospel, the nations of the earth went into a moral eclipse called the Dark Ages," (Mormon Doctrine, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, p. 44).
Joseph Fielding Smith said . . .
"Again, following the death of his apostles, apostasy once more set in, and again the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel were changed to suit the conveniences and notions of the people. Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness," (Doctrines of Salvation, page 266).
The Book of Mormon says. . .
"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth" (1 Nephi 14:10).
"And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose foundation is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence. . ." (1 Nephi. 14:17).
The Doctrine and Covenants says . . .
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face" (Doctrine and Covenants, 112:23).
You are correct that the large portion of the LDS church no longer practices polygamy. But the fundamentalist LDS groups still do, such as the FDS.
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His student
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That's why it's so good to actually hear from someone who knows what Mormons believe and teach.
Every brand of Christianity believes that we should obey the commandments of God and try to do so. Most certainly that is true for born again evangelicals such as myself.
There are many brands of Christian groups in the world. Many of them add some kind of works to the simple gospel. Groups such as Orthodox and Catholics ,among many others, would deny that they teach works salvation.
It’s been an ongoing intramural debate as to how these additions of works affect the salvation of those who believe and practice them. It’s often a theological fine line with those groups and I believe that the Lord will have to sort it all out when He returns.
I asked you what the gospel was that gives salvation. You told me point blank that it is to keep the commandments of God. It's really quite revealing that you should answer that way.
I’m assuming that yours is the position of the Mormon church and all those who subscribe to it’s beliefs.
If that is truly the case – of all the brands which call themselves Christians on the face of the earth – it seems to me that yours may well be the most to be pitied.
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He is the way
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As I have explained before, there are only two churches on the earth, Those individuals who follow Jesus Christ and those individuals who follow the devil. Even one of Jesus' apostles was of the church of the devil:
(New Testament | John 6:70)
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
All of the church teachings at the time were corrupt and many still are because of the man made creeds and the philosophies of man that have been added. That is the primary reason that we do not agree. We are no longer polygamists and we still follow Christ's teachings. The FLDS is not a part of our church. We do not believe that all members of other churches are of the devil. As I explained above there are only two churches and individual members of any church, including The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, are members of one or the other. They are either members of the church of the devil or that of Jesus Christ depending on who they follow. God has promised us that people who keep the commandments will be with Him and the Father. And, as before the teachings of the Book of Mormon do not contradict the Bible. If you believe they do please give a citation.
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So, what you are saying is that all the leaders who were quoted in my post were wrong, and that the reference in the Book of Mormon was wrong as well? By my reasoning, if those people can be wrong in one thing like that, can we really trust them in other matters?
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dzheremi
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Am I missing something? Did Paul write John 17, according to the LDS? (Or anyone?)
What does this have to do with anything Mormon, let alone the specific heresy that we become gods, as you guys teach it?
As always, let's see what the fathers had to make of this, since they are our window on to what the early Church itself actually believed and taught/thought about scripture and its meaning. (NB: I am purposely choosing 'pre-conciliar' or 'ante-Nicene' fathers, so that no one may pretend to answer with dismissal by complaints about 'institutional' or 'mainline' Christianity, since that really wasn't a thing on an empire-wide level until the beginning of the Conciliar era in 325 AD; before that there were still councils, but they were all local/regional in nature.)
In the West, the great saint Cyprian of Carthage (d. 258) wrote the following in his treatise on the Lord's prayer:
But the Lord prayed and besought not for Himself — for why should He who was guiltless pray on His own behalf?— but for our sins, as He Himself declared, when He said to Peter, "Behold, Satan has desired that he might sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not." And subsequently He beseeches the Father for all, saying, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe in me through their word; that they all may be one; as You, Father, art in me, and I in You, that they also may be one in us." The Lord's loving-kindness, no less than His mercy, is great in respect of our salvation, in that, not content to redeem us with His blood, He in addition also prayed for us. Behold now what was the desire of His petition, that like as the Father and Son are one, so also we should abide in absolute unity; so that from this it may be understood how greatly he sins who divides unity and peace, since for this same thing even the Lord besought, desirous doubtless that His people should thus be saved and live in peace, since He knew that discord cannot come into the kingdom of God.
And in the East, the great theologian and teacher saint Clement of Alexandria (d. circa 215 AD) wrote in his work The Instructor the following (emphasis mine):
But that God is good, all willingly admit; and that the same God is just, I require not many more words to prove, after adducing the evangelical utterance of the Lord; He speaks of Him as one, "That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world also may believe that Thou hast sent Me. And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given them; that they may be one, as We are one: I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one." God is one, and beyond the one and above the Monad itself. Wherefore also the particle "Thou," having a demonstrative emphasis, points out God, who alone truly is, "who was, and is, and is to come," in which three divisions of time the one name (o wn); "who is," has its place. And that He who alone is God is also alone and truly righteous, our Lord in the Gospel itself shall testify, saying "Father, I will that they also whom Thou hast given Me be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: For Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I have known Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent Me. And I have declared to them Thy name, and will declare it." This is He "that visits the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, to them that hate Him, and shows mercy to those that love Him." For He who placed some "on the right hand, and others on the left," conceived as Father, being good, is called that which alone He is--" good;" but as He is the Son in the Father, being his Word, from their mutual relation, the name of power being measured by equality of love, He is called righteous. "He will judge," He says, "a man according to his works," --a good balance, even God having made known to us the face of righteousness in the person of Jesus, by whom also, as by even scales, we know God. Of this also the book of Wisdom plainly says, "For mercy and wrath are with Him, for He alone is Lord of both," Lord of propitiations, and pouring forth wrath according to the abundance of His mercy. "So also is His reproof." For the aim of mercy and of reproof is the salvation of those who are reproved.
+++
I think the understanding shown in St. Cyprian is rather obvious: that it be a prayer for unity against any dissent among the disciples themselves, or, in their line, within the Church itself. This unity is therefore not a unity of essence (because how could it be, as the Mormons themselves have objected to this language precisely because conceiving it as so would make all of humanity into, as Peter1000 once put it, "one very large, homoousion object"...blehhhhhh
), as though He were praying that all of the apostles would become essentially the same, but rather that they be in perfect submission to the will of the Divine and Everlasting Father, by Whom Christ was sent.This makes sense if you look at the environment immediately preceding the quoted portion:
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. 9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
"They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world", He says. And so in a similar vein, He continues to pray about other ways that He wants them to be like He is: in unity with the Father -- because this is what will "keep them from the evil one", without being taken out of the world. (And this is what will keep us from the evil one in the same circumstance today.)6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. 9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
The quote from St. Clement of Alexandria is especially interesting to me in the context of Mormon claims of what it means to become "like God". It is very, very clear since early times that the Church did not understand this at all as Mormons do, as St. Clement specifically addresses how it is that God is One as "He is the Son in the Father, being His Word". Are we His Word, or will we become His Word, according to Mormonism? I don't know, but I do know with people like St. Clement as a witness that Christians have never believed such a thing. Hence the polytheism of Mormonism whereby becoming like God means becoming our own gods is completely shut out, as the means by which we can talk about man becoming God is unique to the relationship of God the Father to His Word, the Only-Begotten, by Whom we know God at all.
Don't you think that if Christianity understood scriptures such as these to mean what Mormonism says they do, its teachers would've said so at some point so early on in the Church? After all, St. Clement (who taught at the Catechetical School of Alexandria, the first such school in history) died in around 215 AD, writing from about 182 to about 202 -- only about a decade away from when our Mormon friends have placed the 'great apostasy' as happening (recall, if you were here during those discussions some time ago, how they've had to push it further back into time from "around 200 AD" to "the 170s", after being presented with evidence of early Christian councils which decided against the heresies Mormonism would later 'restore'). Since he was born in 150 AD and didn't start writing until he well into adulthood, you'd think he would remember such an important teaching as men becoming almighty gods, if there ever was such a thing in Christianity.
But there never was. That's simply not a feature of Christian theology, or how Christians East or West have ever understood the scriptures.
So, no; neither St. Paul nor anyone would've ever understood the higher calling of Christ Jesus to be becoming his own god. That's Mormon projection into the past, as usual.
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He is the way
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This was referring to post #6 Paul did write Philippians:Am I missing something? Did Paul write John 17, according to the LDS? (Or anyone?)
What does this have to do with anything Mormon, let alone the specific heresy that we become gods, as you guys teach it?
As always, let's see what the fathers had to make of this, since they are our window on to what the early Church itself actually believed and taught/thought about scripture and its meaning. (NB: I am purposely choosing 'pre-conciliar' or 'ante-Nicene' fathers, so that no one may pretend to answer with dismissal by complaints about 'institutional' or 'mainline' Christianity, since that really wasn't a thing on an empire-wide level until the beginning of the Conciliar era in 325 AD; before that there were still councils, but they were all local/regional in nature.)
In the West, the great saint Cyprian of Carthage (d. 258) wrote the following in his treatise on the Lord's prayer:
But the Lord prayed and besought not for Himself — for why should He who was guiltless pray on His own behalf?— but for our sins, as He Himself declared, when He said to Peter, "Behold, Satan has desired that he might sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not." And subsequently He beseeches the Father for all, saying, "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe in me through their word; that they all may be one; as You, Father, art in me, and I in You, that they also may be one in us." The Lord's loving-kindness, no less than His mercy, is great in respect of our salvation, in that, not content to redeem us with His blood, He in addition also prayed for us. Behold now what was the desire of His petition, that like as the Father and Son are one, so also we should abide in absolute unity; so that from this it may be understood how greatly he sins who divides unity and peace, since for this same thing even the Lord besought, desirous doubtless that His people should thus be saved and live in peace, since He knew that discord cannot come into the kingdom of God.
And in the East, the great theologian and teacher saint Clement of Alexandria (d. circa 215 AD) wrote in his work The Instructor the following (emphasis mine):
But that God is good, all willingly admit; and that the same God is just, I require not many more words to prove, after adducing the evangelical utterance of the Lord; He speaks of Him as one, "That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world also may believe that Thou hast sent Me. And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given them; that they may be one, as We are one: I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one." God is one, and beyond the one and above the Monad itself. Wherefore also the particle "Thou," having a demonstrative emphasis, points out God, who alone truly is, "who was, and is, and is to come," in which three divisions of time the one name (o wn); "who is," has its place. And that He who alone is God is also alone and truly righteous, our Lord in the Gospel itself shall testify, saying "Father, I will that they also whom Thou hast given Me be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: For Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I have known Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent Me. And I have declared to them Thy name, and will declare it." This is He "that visits the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, to them that hate Him, and shows mercy to those that love Him." For He who placed some "on the right hand, and others on the left," conceived as Father, being good, is called that which alone He is--" good;" but as He is the Son in the Father, being his Word, from their mutual relation, the name of power being measured by equality of love, He is called righteous. "He will judge," He says, "a man according to his works," --a good balance, even God having made known to us the face of righteousness in the person of Jesus, by whom also, as by even scales, we know God. Of this also the book of Wisdom plainly says, "For mercy and wrath are with Him, for He alone is Lord of both," Lord of propitiations, and pouring forth wrath according to the abundance of His mercy. "So also is His reproof." For the aim of mercy and of reproof is the salvation of those who are reproved.+++
I think the understanding shown in St. Cyprian is rather obvious: that it be a prayer for unity against any dissent among the disciples themselves, or, in their line, within the Church itself. This unity is therefore not a unity of essence (because how could it be, as the Mormons themselves have objected to this language precisely because conceiving it as so would make all of humanity into, as Peter1000 once put it, "one very large, homoousion object"...blehhhhhh
This makes sense if you look at the environment immediately preceding the quoted portion:
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world", He says. And so in a similar vein, He continues to pray about other ways that He wants them to be like He is: in unity with the Father -- because this is what will "keep them from the evil one", without being taken out of the world. (And this is what will keep us from the evil one in the same circumstance today.)
6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me. 9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
The quote from St. Clement of Alexandria is especially interesting to me in the context of Mormon claims of what it means to become "like God". It is very, very clear since early times that the Church did not understand this at all as Mormons do, as St. Clement specifically addresses how it is that God is One as "He is the Son in the Father, being His Word". Are we His Word, or will we become His Word, according to Mormonism? I don't know, but I do know with people like St. Clement as a witness that Christians have never believed such a thing. Hence the polytheism of Mormonism whereby becoming like God means becoming our own gods is completely shut out, as the means by which we can talk about man becoming God is unique to the relationship of God the Father to His Word, the Only-Begotten, by Whom we know God at all.
Don't you think that if Christianity understood scriptures such as these to mean what Mormonism says they do, its teachers would've said so at some point so early on in the Church? After all, St. Clement (who taught at the Catechetical School of Alexandria, the first such school in history) died in around 215 AD, writing from about 182 to about 202 -- only about a decade away from when our Mormon friends have placed the 'great apostasy' as happening (recall, if you were here during those discussions some time ago, how they've had to push it further back into time from "around 200 AD" to "the 170s", after being presented with evidence of early Christian councils which decided against the heresies Mormonism would later 'restore'). Since he was born in 150 AD and didn't start writing until he well into adulthood, you'd think he would remember such an important teaching as men becoming almighty gods, if there ever was such a thing in Christianity.
But there never was. That's simply not a feature of Christian theology, or how Christians East or West have ever understood the scriptures.
So, no; neither St. Paul nor anyone would've ever understood the higher calling of Christ Jesus to be becoming his own god. That's Mormon projection into the past, as usual.
(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(New Testament | Philippians 3:13 - 15)
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
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dzheremi
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I don't really have time to get into a protracted conversation with you on this matter, He Is The Way, but I believe I addressed this same passage and the Mormon misunderstanding of it by simply quoting more of the context around it, so here it is again (emphasis mine):
1 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
+++
So basically literally everything in that section after the point that you choose to stop quoting shows that, just like St. Clement after him, St. Paul is making a point that is specific to Christ and His coming -- not saying anything about us becoming gods like in Mormonism.
No kidding Christ did not consider it robbery to be equal with God -- He IS God! That's the whole point of writing that in the first place, and that's why the incarnation is such a huge deal in Christianity. It's an explicit affirmation of the incarnation, NOT saying that we will be almighty gods too!
Fittingly, in the Coptic Orthodox Church we directly reference exactly this scripture in our prayers for the Nativity (Christmas), which is the celebration of the incarnation of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ:
So we have this same understanding to this day, just as all Christians do because we understand what the incarnation was about, and what it wasn't about.
1 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
+++
So basically literally everything in that section after the point that you choose to stop quoting shows that, just like St. Clement after him, St. Paul is making a point that is specific to Christ and His coming -- not saying anything about us becoming gods like in Mormonism.
No kidding Christ did not consider it robbery to be equal with God -- He IS God! That's the whole point of writing that in the first place, and that's why the incarnation is such a huge deal in Christianity. It's an explicit affirmation of the incarnation, NOT saying that we will be almighty gods too!
Fittingly, in the Coptic Orthodox Church we directly reference exactly this scripture in our prayers for the Nativity (Christmas), which is the celebration of the incarnation of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ:
So we have this same understanding to this day, just as all Christians do because we understand what the incarnation was about, and what it wasn't about.
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He is the way
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You want those quotes and references to mean something that they don't.
Joseph Smith said . . .
(Regarding Joseph Smith's alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him) . . . "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).
Nothing here about members of the church being of the devil
"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270).
Nothing here about members of the church being of the devil only the professors
(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism . . . ).
First--"Do you believe the Bible?"
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do."
Third--"Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings, page 119).
Dammed means being stopped from progression, not being of the devil
Brigham Young said. . .
"But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong," (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, 1855, p. 171).
They were all wrong nothing about devils.
John Taylor said . . .
"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsens . . . Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 1858, p. 167).
Most likely taken out of context and still does not state that member are of the devil
"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, 1863, p. 127).
James Talmage said . . .
"A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ," (The Articles of Faith, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, p. 182).
Bruce McConkie said . . .
"With the loss of the gospel, the nations of the earth went into a moral eclipse called the Dark Ages," (Mormon Doctrine, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, p. 44).
Joseph Fielding Smith said . . .
"Again, following the death of his apostles, apostasy once more set in, and again the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel were changed to suit the conveniences and notions of the people. Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness," (Doctrines of Salvation, page 266).
The doctrine was corrupted but nothing about the members being of the devil.
The Book of Mormon says. . .
"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth" (1 Nephi 14:10).
"And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose foundation is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence. . ." (1 Nephi. 14:17).
I already explained this there are only two churches and every person on earth fits into one or the other of them. It has nothing to do with being a member of a particular church, there are good and bad members in every church.
The Doctrine and Covenants says . . .
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face" (Doctrine and Covenants, 112:23).
(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:1 - 7)
1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
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The Bible isn't missing covenants; the Book of Mormon says it is.That is a contradiction of what God says.
The Old Covenant required complete obedience to law.
James 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Romans 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 4
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for
righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Mormon attempts to explain simple sentences that are very clear don't work among intelligent Christians. There are two churches only. 1. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 2. The rest of us.
Doctrine and Covenants 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth,
with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven
The kingdom of God on earth is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 65). The purpose of the Church is to prepare its members to live forever in the celestial kingdom or kingdom of heaven. However, the scriptures sometimes call the Church the kingdom of heaven, meaning that the Church is the kingdom of heaven on earth.
Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven
I've explained again and again the requirements of eternal life per Mormonism. Do you think that everyone looking at these posts is unable to comprehend the requirements for eternal life per Mormonism?
Once more, just a few of those requirements:
. 1. We must be baptized.
. 2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ [of Latter-day Saints] and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
. 3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
. 4. We must receive the temple endowment.
. 5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.
Just because Judas was a devil, doesn't make non-Mormon churches the Kingdom of God on earth.
That is your opinion that you've been taught by Joseph Smith followers.
No, there is only:
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth,
with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
Doctrine and Covenants 1
Citation has already been given, but that won't silence your arguing. I've had years of experience.
The Gospel
What Joseph Smith said:
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
Joseph Smith—History 1
He also said:
“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.”
ZION
The word Zion has various meanings in the scriptures. The most general definition of the word is "the pure in heart" (D&C 97:21). Zion is often used in this way to refer to the Lord's people or to the Church and its stakes (see D&C 82:14).
Zion
- all who fight against Zion shall be destroyed, 1 Ne. 22:14, 19 (2 Ne. 6:12–13; 10:13, 16; 27:3).
Zion
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Here's the most amazing thing said about the abominable church by Mormons:
1 Nephi 13
4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.
5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.
6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.
7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.
This chapter of 1 Nephi 13 talks about covenants being removed from the Bible by this abominable church.
Book of Mormon Student Manual (which I own):
'Now, all the world today, I am sorry to say, with the exception of a handful of people who have obeyed the new and everlasting covenant, are suffering this spiritual death. They are cast out from the presence of God. They are without God, without Gospel truth, and without the power of redemption; for they know not God nor His Gospel. In order that they may be redeemed and saved from the spiritual death which has spread over the world like a pall, they must repent of their sins, and be baptized by one having [LDS] authority, for the remission of sins, that they may be born of God. That is why we want these young men to go out into the world to preach the Gospel. While they themselves understand but little perhaps, the germ of life is in them'"
(President Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, Oct. 1899, p. 72)
Book of Mormon Student Manual, Copyright 1989, p. 111
1 Nephi 13
4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.
5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.
6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.
7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.
This chapter of 1 Nephi 13 talks about covenants being removed from the Bible by this abominable church.
Book of Mormon Student Manual (which I own):
'Now, all the world today, I am sorry to say, with the exception of a handful of people who have obeyed the new and everlasting covenant, are suffering this spiritual death. They are cast out from the presence of God. They are without God, without Gospel truth, and without the power of redemption; for they know not God nor His Gospel. In order that they may be redeemed and saved from the spiritual death which has spread over the world like a pall, they must repent of their sins, and be baptized by one having [LDS] authority, for the remission of sins, that they may be born of God. That is why we want these young men to go out into the world to preach the Gospel. While they themselves understand but little perhaps, the germ of life is in them'"
(President Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, Oct. 1899, p. 72)
Book of Mormon Student Manual, Copyright 1989, p. 111
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He is the way
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Then Paul goes on to say:
(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 16)
1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
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He is the way
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[QUOTE="Phoebe Ann, post: 73885206, member: 5763"
Mormon attempts to explain simple sentences that are very clear don't work among intelligent Christians. There are two churches only. 1. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 2. The rest of us.
Doctrine and Covenants 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth,
with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven
The kingdom of God on earth is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 65). The purpose of the Church is to prepare its members to live forever in the celestial kingdom or kingdom of heaven. However, the scriptures sometimes call the Church the kingdom of heaven, meaning that the Church is the kingdom of heaven on earth.
Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven
[/QUOTE]
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 14:10)
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.
Did Judas, the apostle of Jesus Christ, belong to the church of Jesus Christ?:
(New Testament | John 6:70)
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
There are members of every church that follow Jesus Christ, and there are members of every church that follow the devil. The wheat and tares are growing together however they will be sorted out. The ones who love Jesus and keep the commandments are of His church and they will receive mercy:
(Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Mormon attempts to explain simple sentences that are very clear don't work among intelligent Christians. There are two churches only. 1. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 2. The rest of us.
Doctrine and Covenants 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth,
with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven
The kingdom of God on earth is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 65). The purpose of the Church is to prepare its members to live forever in the celestial kingdom or kingdom of heaven. However, the scriptures sometimes call the Church the kingdom of heaven, meaning that the Church is the kingdom of heaven on earth.
Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven
[/QUOTE]
(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 14:10)
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth.
Did Judas, the apostle of Jesus Christ, belong to the church of Jesus Christ?:
(New Testament | John 6:70)
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
There are members of every church that follow Jesus Christ, and there are members of every church that follow the devil. The wheat and tares are growing together however they will be sorted out. The ones who love Jesus and keep the commandments are of His church and they will receive mercy:
(Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
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He is the way
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How would you know? There are several books mentioned in the Bible that are not there.
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It is the same bible that Jesus and all first Christians studied and they had no problem with the missing books. If it was good enough for Jesus---I certainly have no complaints.
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It is not just corruption. JS uses the word "abomination" and it is the same word used in Scripture for idol worship and witchcraft, and those who practice such things will never inherit the kingdom of God.
The term "professors of Christianity" does not refer to College Professors. It is used to describe those who profess Christianity. In other words, members of Christian churches.
(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism . . . ).
First--"Do you believe the Bible?"
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do."
Third--"Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings, page 119).
Dammed means being stopped from progression, not being of the devil[/quote]
Damned as it was understood in the 19th Century, meant condemned to hell.
As you said, there are only two churches - the church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil. If all the other sects (Christian churches) are wrong, then they must not be of the church of the Lamb of God, so they must be churches of the devil. This is called 5th Grade Comprehension 101.
The church is not the building. It is the members. It is not out of context. He means the members of all Christian churches. A church is its members.
This says that every Christian church is false and therefore not of God. If it is not of God then it has to be of the devil.
Apostasy is a departure from the kingdom of God to the kingdom of darkness, ruled by the devil.
Spiritual darkness is a separation from God, therefore it is a separation from the kingdom of God. Those who are separated from the Kingdom of God has the devil as their father, not God.
As I said before, the church is the membership that belongs to it. Without the people, there is just an empty building. Therefore the Book of Mormon is definitely speaking of the members of every Christian church that is not the church of the Lamb of God (Mormon)
Your explanation of these quotes do not convince me. You cannot avoid what is being said in plain language.
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I am known by the Savior and I know Him; that is why I follow Him instead of the false prophets of your religion.
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