False Converts

[rockytopva]

Deeds are supposed to follow faith. Not be included for salvation.

Yes... That is the fruit we produce. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

 

[DeaconDean]

What did he mean by 'profit'? To get saved, or something else?


Where does James speak of some "mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel"? He doesn't. He speaks of those who claim to have faith, but no works. Then, in the next 2 verses, demonstrates hypocrisy as an example of someone who doesn't have works. Does he mean that ALLD hypocrites are unsaved, regardless of what they have believed? That would be pretty extreme! All of us from time to time have acted hypocritically.

in fact, EVERY TIME we sin we are being hypocritical. Does that demonstrate being unsaved?

2:15,16 demonstrate hypocrisy, which is common among believers. To consider all hypocrites in the evangelical church as unbelievers isn't sane.

2:18 actually clears up the fog, if one pays attention to what the point is.

He sets up a "someone" who asks a good question.My NIV Study Bible has quotes right after "you have faith, I have deeds". I think that is wrong. I believe the someone continues with "show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

So, the someone begins with acknowledging that YOU have faith, and he has deeds. But then he continues with a challenge for YOU to show him your faith without deeds, and he will show YOU his faith by what he does (deeds).

2:18 clarifies James' point in 2:14. It'a all about demonstrating your faith to others so they can see that you have faith.

If 2:14 were about saving faith, 2:18 makes no sense in light of 2:14.

btw, how do you show your faith without works?

Being deliberately obtuse.

The actual Greek word rendered "profit" also means "advantage".

ὄφελος,n \{of'-el-os}
1) advantage, profit

Source

Which brings us right back to what I said previously:

Professing to be a Christian when one is not may secure a standing before men, it may improve his moral and social prestige, he may be able to join a church, and help promote his commercial interests, but can it save him? What is the use to fein to be charitable when works of charity are withheld? What good does it bring to calling oneself a Christian when empty stomachs are met with good words? How can a person claim to be a Christian and clothe the naked by good wishes? What does it profit to profess to be a believer when there is no true piety?

Neither can a person be saved by a mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel. To say that I am a Christian and am unable to appeal to any good works and spiritual fruits as proof of it, profits neither the person nor those who listen.

And to quote John Gill:

What doth it profit, my brethren,.... The apostle having finished his discourse on respect of persons, and the arguments he used to dissuade from it, by an easy transition passes to treat upon faith and works, showing that faith without works, particularly without works of mercy, is of no profit and advantage:

though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? it is clear that the apostle is not speaking of true faith, for that, in persons capable of performing them, is not without works; it is an operative grace; it works by love and kindness, both to Christ, and to his members; but of a profession of faith, a mere historical one, by which a man, at most, assents to the truth of things, as even devils do, James 2:19 and only says he has faith, but has it not; as Simon Magus, who said he believed, but did not.

Can faith save him? such a faith as this, a faith without works, an historical one, a mere profession of faith, which lies only in words, and has no deeds, to show the truth and genuineness of it. True faith indeed has no causal influence on salvation, or has any virtue and efficacy in itself to save; Christ, object of faith, is the only cause and author of salvation; faith is only that grace which receives a justifying righteousness, the pardon of sin, adoption, and a right to the heavenly inheritance; but it does not justify, nor pardon, nor adopt, nor give the right to the inheritance, but lays hold on, and claims these, by virtue of the gift of grace; and it has spiritual and eternal salvation inseparably connected with it; but as for the other faith, a man may have it, and be in the gall of bitterness, and bond of iniquity; he may have all faith in that sense, and be nothing; it is no other than the devils themselves have; and so he may have it, and be damned.

Source

Just like Paul uses Abraham as his example, James does the same.

What is maintained is, that Paul addresses the fact of how a man can be justified before God, and James addresses how a man can be justified before man. Paul addresses our justification of persons, while James addresses our justification of profession. The one is by faith alone, while the other worketh by love and produces obedience. (Pink)

Faith, especailly saving faith, will be evidenced by "works".

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.

Faith without them, is dead, just like the twenty dollar bill sitting on a cabinet.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[com7fy8]

Then I suggest you learn how to better convey or be more succinct in your points because I NEVER saw this conveyed in ANY of your posts so far in this thread.
Thanks.

lololololololololol

Is there such a thing as a false convert, one that may look like a convert, but really they aren't saved? They may even know a bunch of doctrine, or said a prayer at an invitation, and say and do the right things. But inwardly, there is no new birth or growth.

Yes.

A person might on purpose put on the act, in order to use a church for what the person wants. The person can copy-cat the "sinner's prayer" that he or she is told to say. And the person can blend in with how the church members are behaving. Anyone with some acting ability can put on the outward show. And if you pay attention to what the person says and does not say, and what the person calls attention to, it can be pretty easy to spot a user. If you are not trying to use people for things you want, it is pretty hard for a user and faker to trick you; because there isn't anything selfish he or she can use as bait to hook you.

But can a person really think he or she has gotten saved but is not saved? I think a person in sin can fool oneself into thinking he or she has gotten saved. Maybe the person feels guilty after hearing about what is wrong, and the person wants to feel better and is told to say this "sinner's prayer" and you are saved. So, guilt drives the person, and then he or she feels a little better because the person is given "assurance" that he or she isn't under the heat, any more . . . instead of being tested prayerfully, first, to make sure with God.

There are people very wishful who want to believe they have gotten people "saved"; and so they hurry to believe that anyone putting on the show they look for must be converted.

Maybe the person likes the music and how people treat the person; so the person wants to join what seems like a club. Say this prayer; ok. Do this and do that; fine. And the person actually thinks he or she has become a Christian.

They can do what is in the outward culture and think this means they really got saved > the outward prayer, the baptism, giving money, singing along, smiling, speaking nicely to others. But Jesus does say, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46)

Can we tell who really gets saved, then? Jesus says, "'Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.'" (John 7:24) So, yes God can make us able to evaluate reliably, but not only by outward appearing things. "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9) So, in God's love we have His light to see what He can have us seeing, to know and discern.

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God," (Romans 8:16) The Holy Spirit can communicate with us to let us know about someone. God is the One who knows and He can have us know whatever He wants us to know. And He guides us according to all He knows about people; so simply, when you do not know, obey how God guides you and this will keep you from going along with wrong people.

Practically, one thing I go by is I take time to get to know someone. If I do not love someone enough to spend time with the person, how can I have love which has me knowing, like Philippians 1:9 prays?? So, I test by spending time with someone . . . and seeing if the person ministers God's own grace and obviously helps me get more real with God and loving any and all people. I think this is what Paul means by Galatians 2:6 >

"But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me." (Galatians 2:6)

What I see from this is Paul knew any really Christian had power of God to add to Paul > to help Paul become more God's way. Any child of God is able to minister God's own grace which effects us to be changed more into the image of Jesus and have more insight and to more maturely love the way Jesus wants >

"Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Peter 4:9-10)

You can tell if someone is ministering God's own love to you.

And He gives us discernment so we can tell if a newer Christian is truly saved, even though the person is doing things not right. One thing that shows is how the person does confess problems and then does grow and do better. "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16) One "sign" that I got saved has been how now I am not in denial and fear about things which are wrong with me, like I used to be; but I am encouraged to confess them, and trust God to correct me into how I can be loving, instead.

And Paul says, "Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) So, our Father has us testing reliably. And we do not have to accept anyone's word for anything, but test. And if anyone is wrong, at any time, no matter how high-up the person may be as a leader, still we are expected to test and to hold to what is good. We do not ever have to go along with a wrong leader or anyone else who is wrong.

And Paul says, "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified." (2 Corinthians 13:5) So, I see this means any of us should examine if we are saved. We humans are able to fool our own selves and not even know it . . . because we have copy-catted what others said to do; or we can copy-cat what we ourselves think we should do, and not really be doing God's will.

It is like getting a health examination. We can not do this examining, ourselves; but we go to a doctor and submit to how he or she examines us. Our Father is the One to do the examination.

 

[Hammster]

These links only bring me to the top of page 4 of this thread. How about giving me the actual post numbers?
Thanks.

Weird. It takes me right to them. Anyway, here they are:

62, 64, 72, 76.

 

[Hammster]

By understanding 2:14 to mean that a faith without works won't save, you have moved into the camp of the RCC. How's their campfire working out for you?

You are ignoring my argument, and are not interacting with what I'm actually saying. Your statement here has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted.

If 2:14 refers to saving faith, you have to include works in getting salvation.

It doesn't. It's a said faith.

There is no wriggle room here.

I agree.

We are either saved by faith without works, taught by Paul, or we are saved by a faith that works (your take on James).

No even close to my view. You won't find anywhere that shows me to believe this.

Or, James wasn't speaking of saving faith at all, but rather, believers who aren't demonstrating their faith to others. Which removes any perceived conflict between Paul and James.

No, James was talking about people who just SAY that they have faith.

 

[stan1953]

Weird. It takes me right to them. Anyway, here they are:

62, 64, 72, 76.

Only two of those are your posts and neither one states this so like I said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Being deliberately obtuse.

How is a question being "deliberately obtuse".

And by choosing to ignore them, seems that's what you've done.

The actual Greek word rendered "profit" also means "advantage".

Nice obtuse answer. So, what is the advantage to faith having works?

Just like Paul uses Abraham as his example, James does the same.

Was Abraham's actions for God's eyes only, of for others to see?

What is maintained is, that Paul addresses the fact of how a man can be justified before God, and James addresses how a man can be justified before man.

Bingo! And that is my point. James' justification has nothing to do with our eternal salvation, or the justification from God that comes by faith.

[QUTOE] Paul addresses our justification of persons, while James addresses our justification of profession. The one is by faith alone, while the other worketh by love and produces obedience. (Pink)[/QUOTE]
Nope. You already gave the right answer. Pink has no clue.

Faith, especailly saving faith, will be evidenced by "works".

Supposed to be evidenced by works. That was James' point. 2:18 is the clear indication of that.

Faith without them, is dead, just like the twenty dollar bill sitting on a cabinet.

Do you hold to the notion held by RT's that a "dead faith" is just another word for "false faith"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are ignoring my argument, and are not interacting with what I'm actually saying. Your statement here has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted.

That is exactly my problem with your posts!!! In fact, I refuted your argument by exegeting 2:15,16,18 and 26. And all you've done is repeatedly quote 2:14 as if by chanting it enough, will make everything ok.

It doesn't. It's a said faith.

No, he noted those who claim to have faith.

No, James was talking about people who just SAY that they have faith.

Ridiculous idea! Why would he, since he was writing about PRACTICAL CHRISTIAN LIVING?? You haven't answered that.

The practicality of what he wrote was that believers need to demonstrate their faith to others, not just claim to have faith. That's what 2:18 means, which you keep ignoring, for no good reason.

Please exegete 2:18 so that I may have some insight into your thought process.

 

[Hammster]

Only two of those are your posts and neither one states this so like I said.

It did state it like I said, though. And it agree with your view.

 

[Hammster]

That is exactly my problem with your posts!!! In fact, I refuted your argument by exegeting 2:15,16,18 and 26. And all you've done is repeatedly quote 2:14 as if by chanting it enough, will make everything ok.

How could you refute my argument when you're admitting that you don't even understand it?

No, he noted those who claim to have faith.

Right. A said faith. One who says they have faith.

Ridiculous idea! Why would he, since he was writing about PRACTICAL CHRISTIAN LIVING?? You haven't answered that.

Obviously, your understanding of what he said is incorrect.

The practicality of what he wrote was that believers need to demonstrate their faith to others, not just claim to have faith. That's what 2:18 means, which you keep ignoring, for no good reason.

Nope. You are mistaken.

Please exegete 2:18 so that I may have some insight into your thought process.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works. (James 2:18 HCSB)

He is clearly demonstrating the difference between a said faith and a real faith. People can claim they believe, but a true believer will have works. It's really obvious if you follow his argument from 14 onward.

 

[OzSpen]

Really? After 116 posts you think it's clear?
Where exactly are the words 'dead faith'?

No doubt there are false believers in ANY faith, but we are talking about converts to Christianity right?

Stan,

It seems that Jesus believed there could be false converts or pretenders:

20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness (Matt 7:20-23 ESV).
​

I find this to be a scary way of putting it. There were those who called him, Lord, Lord, and performed supernatural miracles, but they never knew Jesus. He told them to depart from him as 'workers of lawlessness'.

Surely this is a serious warning about the possibility of fake Christians in our midst - but they look very spiritual.

Oz

 

[stan1953]

Stan,

It seems that Jesus believed there could be false converts or pretenders:

20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness (Matt 7:20-23 ESV).
​

I find this to be a scary way of putting it. There were those who called him, Lord, Lord, and performed supernatural miracles, but they never knew Jesus. He told them to depart from him as 'workers of lawlessness'.

Surely this is a serious warning about the possibility of fake Christians in our midst - but they look very spiritual.

Oz

No doubt, I could name a few modern TV ones. God is always faithful regardless of our faithlessness, and I believe that Is 55:11 and Eccl 11:1 show the reasons these things are allowed to happen.

Paul also knew this as he depicted in 2 Cor 11:14.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How could you refute my argument when you're admitting that you don't even understand it?

Where did I admit that I don't understand your view? I've never had a problem with understanding what you think.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works. (James 2:18 HCSB)

He is clearly demonstrating the difference between a said faith and a real faith. People can claim they believe, but a true believer will have works. It's really obvious if you follow his argument from 14 onward.

What is clear is how little you understand from the passage.

What the "someone" is saying is that unless one demonstrates their faith, they can't show anyone their faith. Obviously.

But your views have been quite helpful in demonstrating to others how RT misunderstands so much of Scripture.

 

[Hammster]

Where did I admit that I don't understand your view? I've never had a problem with understanding what you think.

You thought I was advocating faith plus works equaled salvation. So obviously you don't understand.

What is clear is how little you understand from the passage.

What the "someone" is saying is that unless one demonstrates their faith, they can't show anyone their faith. Obviously.

On it own, with no context, that might be possible. But since it comes right after 14-17, your view is untenable.

But your views have been quite helpful in demonstrating to others how RT misunderstands so much of Scripture.

RT, eh?

There ya go...so if Jesus tells us we are saved by our faith, and Paul tells us we are saved by our faith, then James can't be telling us faith doesn't save. He MUST be telling us this is NOT faith, no matter what those so-called believers ARE saying. There is no other way to possibly see it.

Not RT. Why you'd think this is a reformed only view is beyond me. I've always held this view, well before I was a Calvinist.

 

[Hammster]

FG, how would you describe a false convert without using James 2:14?

 

[sdowney717]

About good works.
God does what kind of workmanship in us who He saved?
Ephesians 2

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God purposes in Himself to create us in Christ Jesus to do good works which he prepared beforehand, that is before we do them, He has good works setup for us to walk in them. Like Christ walked in them, doing good works of God.

Jesus said 'for what good work do you want to stone me?'

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

When it says faith without works is dead, well there is no Holy Spirit life there, no works for them to do that He has created beforehand for them to walk in, because they are not in Christ, they are not saved persons. They have no good works at all prepared beforehand because they are not His. Their faith is dead if God is not the author of their faith. If God is the author of their faith, then He has prepared good works for them to walk in as Christ walked in. We are transformed into the image of His Son by the power of the Holy Spirit working within us and we will walk out the good works He has prepared for us, otherwise we are not His. If anyone does not have the Spirit of God in them they are not His.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You thought I was advocating faith plus works equaled salvation. So obviously you don't understand.

Clearly, it is you who don't understand the logical conclusion of your own view.

By claiming that one is not saved unless there are good works, you have IMPLICITLY added works to faith for salvation. There are NO verses that teach this false doctrine. James speaks about demonstrating one's faith so others can see it, per 2:18. Obviously.

On it own, with no context, that might be possible. But since it comes right after 14-17, your view is untenable.

Ha. 2:18 makes a conclusion from what was written before (2:14-17). Obviously.

Not RT. Why you'd think this is a reformed only view is beyond me. I've always held this view, well before I was a Calvinist.

Actually, both RCC and Arminians also fail to understand James 2:14-26. So you are correct that RT isn't alone in holding to it view. What is interesting is even though RT, RCC and Arms all agree that 2:14 is about saving faith, all 3 come to contrasting views regarding 2:24-26.

RT claims that faith without works proves no saving faith.
Arms claim that salvation is lost if a believer doesn't produce works.
RCC claims that salvation comes from faith plus works.

None are correct. All have missed the point.

btw, I noticed that none of my points were refuted. Giving your view doesn't refute mine. Disagreeing with my points doesn't refute it either.

 

[Hammster]

Clearly, it is you who don't understand the logical conclusion of your own view.

By claiming that one is not saved unless there are good works, you have IMPLICITLY added works to faith for salvation. There are NO verses that teach this false doctrine. James speaks about demonstrating one's faith so others can see it, per 2:18. Obviously.

I've never added works to faith for salvation. Not once.

Ha. 2:18 makes a conclusion from what was written before (2:14-17). Obviously.

I agree. I just disagree with your understanding.

Actually, both RCC and Arminians also fail to understand James 2:14-26. So you are correct that RT isn't alone in holding to it view. What is interesting is even though RT, RCC and Arms all agree that 2:14 is about saving faith, all 3 come to contrasting views regarding 2:24-26.

2:14 is not talking about saving faith.

RT claims that faith without works proves no saving faith.

We agree with James.

Arms claim that salvation is lost if a believer doesn't produce works.
RCC claims that salvation comes from faith plus works.

They are both wrong.

None are correct. All have missed the point.

btw, I noticed that none of my points were refuted. Giving your view doesn't refute mine. Disagreeing with my points doesn't refute it either.

Yes, giving the correct view does refute you since they both cannot be correct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FG, how would you describe a false convert without using James 2:14?

First, James never wrote about false converts. That's a false teaching.

I would use Scripture and use Scriptural terms.

2 Corinthians 11:26
I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;

Galatians 2:4
But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

The Bible identifies "false brethren" as spies. iow, deceivers who are LYING when they say they are Christians or believers. And we know what the Bible says about false teachers, who are also liars: Matt 7:15. We know them by their fruit.

You have yet to refute my position or adequately defend your own.

 

[Hammster]

First, James never wrote about false converts. That's a false teaching.

I would use Scripture and use Scriptural terms.

2 Corinthians 11:26
I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;

Galatians 2:4
But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

The Bible identifies "false brethren" as spies. iow, deceivers who are LYING when they say they are Christians or believers. And we know what the Bible says about false teachers, who are also liars: Matt 7:15. We know them by their fruit.

You have yet to refute my position or adequately defend your own.

So people who just say they are Christians, but aren't? James would agree. He says they have dead faith.

Or are you saying that they weren't thinking they were Christian, but purposely trying to deceive?