False Converts

[Hammster]

This is no refutation at all. Just offering your opinion.

As to "assuming", your view does that by the phrase "then what he's (James) is saying is that someone just claiming to have faith. James makes NO inference to what people CLAIM or SAY. His point is about what people believe.

2:18 proves that by the non rhetorical request: "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

Please tell me in your own words what v.18 is communicating.

First off, here's v 14.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV)

I'm not making assumptions. It is what he says.

Verse 18 is just continuing his argument. In a nutshell, his argument is that you can say all day long that you have faith, but without works, there's no evidence. I, however, don't even need to say I have faith because it's evidenced by my works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

First off, here's v 14.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV)

I'm not making assumptions. It is what he says.

Yet, the issue is to understand what he meant.

Verse 18 is just continuing his argument. In a nutshell, his argument is that you can say all day long that you have faith, but without works, there's no evidence. I, however, don't even need to say I have faith because it's evidenced by my works.

No where in James does he make any statement about what people SAY about having faith. That is strictly your assumption.

He is talking about those who have faith but don't have works. Your opinion cannot be supported by the text or context.

 

[Hammster]

Yet, the issue is to understand what he meant.


No where in James does he make any statement about what people SAY about having faith. That is strictly your assumption.

He is talking about those who have faith but don't have works. Your opinion cannot be supported by the text or context.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV)

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 NASB)

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him? (James 2:14 HCSB)

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? (James 2:14 NIV)

That's what James says. I'm not sure what else it's suppose to mean except what it says.

 

[sdowney717]

That I did do. I explained that you are reading it backwards, and instead of making assumptions about v 26 and reading the rest into it, you really should start with the rhetorical questions in v 14 and go from there. If the answer to those questions is no, then what he's saying is that someone just claiming to have faith has no faith at all that will save.

That rings true with me.
Scripture supports this idea of believing and then confessing Christ before men as LORD. Making that good confession is a good work prepared beforehand for us to walk in and is of the Holy Spirit since none can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

And that is just the beginning of the good works God has for prepared beforehand for us to do, If he does not take us like the thief on the cross.

Faith or belief without works is dead, right at the get go because no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit, and HE it is who makes us alive who were dead in sin. And if He has made us alive, we will confess this aloud as a good work of the Holy Spirit inside of us testifying that Jesus is Lord.

The persons in John 12, it is testified to that they believed in Him, but did not confess Him. They did not do the good work of the Holy Spirit which would have been in them to confess Him before men, so they were not saved. because the Holy Spirit had not made them alive. so they could not say Jesus is Lord, besides they show the fruit of the flesh working in them, not the fruit of the Spirit.

42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

John points this out they they did not confess Him for fear of men because they loved God less and loved men more. This is not a testimony of a saved Holy Spirit led person.

It really all fits together nicely what the Holy Spirit does in saving us, believing in our heart and then confessing He is Lord to men, speaking it aloud. It must be spoken out for our salvation to be real and genuine work of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said those who confess Me before men, I will confess before My Father and the angels in heaven.

 

[cygnusx1]

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV)

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 NASB)

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him? (James 2:14 HCSB)

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? (James 2:14 NIV)

That's what James says. I'm not sure what else it's suppose to mean except what it says.

Amen !

Faith without works is futile , like a knowledge of Bible doctrine without application.

 

[DeaconDean]

Amen !

Faith without works is futile , like a knowledge of Bible doctrine without application.

I'll second that!

All this talk of "dead" faith.

If you have a twenty dollar bill sitting on the counter, it's still a twenty dollar bill.

But...it's of no value. It's "dead". It's not in the bank collecting interest, nor is it being spent on something.

So of what value is it?

For all intents, it is "dead".

Arthur W. Pink put it this way:

Professing to be a Christian when one is not may secure a standing before men, it may improve his moral and social prestige, he may be able to join a church, and help promote his commercial interests, but can it save him? What is the use to fein to be charitable when works of charity are withheld? What good does it bring to calling oneself a Christian when empty stomachs are met with good words? How can a person claim to be a Christian and clothe the naked by good wishes? What does it profit to profess to be a believer when there is no true piety?

Neither can a person be saved by a mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel. To say that I am a Christian and am unable to appeal to any good works and spiritual fruits as proof of it, profits neither the person nor those who listen. Without the essential element of “faith worketh by love” (cf. Gal. 5:6), no matter how much reading or studying, no amount of head knowledge, no amount of preaching and teaching one can do, they are no more than “sounding brass and tinkling symbol.” Without love, those professors will be the ones pleading their works but will be told: “Depart, I never knew ye.”

Arthur W. Pink, The Doctrine of Justification, Chapter 9, Its Evidence, book on-line, accessed 5/31/09, found on the World-Wide-web at: 9. Its Evidence

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV)

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 NASB)

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him? (James 2:14 HCSB)

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? (James 2:14 NIV)

That's what James says. I'm not sure what else it's suppose to mean except what it says.

As I said previously, you can repeat 2:14 as many times as you want to, but if you don't understand how it relates to 2:15,16,18 and 26, you simply have no idea what he was meaning.

If he was meaning "saving faith", then one cannot even understand 2:15,16,18 and 26.

Discernment is key. Not repetition.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'll second that!

All this talk of "dead" faith.

If you have a twenty dollar bill sitting on the counter, it's still a twenty dollar bill.

But...it's of no value. It's "dead". It's not in the bank collecting interest, nor is it being spent on something.

So of what value is it?

The failure is understanding what is meant by "value". If it means to actually get saved, then one MUST admit that works are NECESSARY for salvation.

That is unbiblical. The value in works is that it clearly demonstrates the faith of the one who has it. It is that simple, really.

 

[Hammster]

As I said previously, you can repeat 2:14 as many times as you want to, but if you don't understand how it relates to 2:15,16,18 and 26, you simply have no idea what he was meaning.

If he was meaning "saving faith", then one cannot even understand 2:15,16,18 and 26.

Discernment is key. Not repetition.

I do understand how it relates. You said James did say anything about people who SAY they have faith. I showed otherwise. I've established that James says that there are people who SAY they have faith. If you don't agree with that, we cannot continue to the other verses.

 

[DeaconDean]

That is unbiblical. The value in works is that it clearly demonstrates the faith of the one who has it. It is that simple, really.

Unless I'm the stupiest person in the world, didn't Pink say that here:

What does it profit to profess to be a believer when there is no true piety?

Neither can a person be saved by a mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel. To say that I am a Christian and am unable to appeal to any good works and spiritual fruits as proof of it, profits neither the person nor those who listen

Just call me Homer!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I'm not gonna debate this.

I will add this:

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[stan1953]

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 ESV)

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14 NASB)

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him? (James 2:14 HCSB)

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? (James 2:14 NIV)

That's what James says. I'm not sure what else it's suppose to mean except what it says.

There ya go...so if Jesus tells us we are saved by our faith, and Paul tells us we are saved by our faith, then James can't be telling us faith doesn't save. He MUST be telling us this is NOT faith, no matter what those so-called believers ARE saying. There is no other way to possibly see it.

 

[stan1953]

Unless I'm the stupiest person in the world, didn't Pink say that here:

Just call me Homer!
God Bless
Till all are one.

Hey Homer....welcome to the fray.

 

[Hammster]

There ya go...so if Jesus tells us we are saved by our faith, and Paul tells us we are saved by our faith, then James can't be telling us faith doesn't save. He MUST be telling us this is NOT faith, no matter what those so-called believers ARE saying. There is no other way to possibly see it.

I agree. That's been my point from the beginning.

 

[stan1953]

I agree. That's been my point from the beginning.

Then I suggest you learn how to better convey or be more succinct in your points because I NEVER saw this conveyed in ANY of your posts so far in this thread.
Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

Then I suggest you learn how to better convey or be more succinct in your points because I NEVER saw this conveyed in ANY of your posts so far in this thread.
Thanks.

www.christianforums.com/t7817862-7/#post65452205

www.christianforums.com/t7817862-7/#post65453576

www.christianforums.com/t7817862-8/#post65454591

www.christianforums.com/t7817862-8/#post65454633

 

[stan1953]

www.christianforums.com/t7817862-7/#post65452205

www.christianforums.com/t7817862-7/#post65453576

www.christianforums.com/t7817862-8/#post65454591

www.christianforums.com/t7817862-8/#post65454633

These links only bring me to the top of page 4 of this thread. How about giving me the actual post numbers?
Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've established that James says that there are people who SAY they have faith. If you don't agree with that, we cannot continue to the other verses.

By understanding 2:14 to mean that a faith without works won't save, you have moved into the camp of the RCC. How's their campfire working out for you?

If 2:14 refers to saving faith, you have to include works in getting salvation.

There is no wriggle room here.

We are either saved by faith without works, taught by Paul, or we are saved by a faith that works (your take on James).

Or, James wasn't speaking of saving faith at all, but rather, believers who aren't demonstrating their faith to others. Which removes any perceived conflict between Paul and James.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Unless I'm the stupiest person in the world, didn't Pink say that here:
What does it profit to profess to be a believer when there is no true piety?

What did he mean by 'profit'? To get saved, or something else?

Neither can a person be saved by a mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel. To say that I am a Christian and am unable to appeal to any good works and spiritual fruits as proof of it, profits neither the person nor those who listen

Where does James speak of some "mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel"? He doesn't. He speaks of those who claim to have faith, but no works. Then, in the next 2 verses, demonstrates hypocrisy as an example of someone who doesn't have works. Does he mean that ALLD hypocrites are unsaved, regardless of what they have believed? That would be pretty extreme! All of us from time to time have acted hypocritically.

in fact, EVERY TIME we sin we are being hypocritical. Does that demonstrate being unsaved?

2:15,16 demonstrate hypocrisy, which is common among believers. To consider all hypocrites in the evangelical church as unbelievers isn't sane.

2:18 actually clears up the fog, if one pays attention to what the point is.

He sets up a "someone" who asks a good question.My NIV Study Bible has quotes right after "you have faith, I have deeds". I think that is wrong. I believe the someone continues with "show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

So, the someone begins with acknowledging that YOU have faith, and he has deeds. But then he continues with a challenge for YOU to show him your faith without deeds, and he will show YOU his faith by what he does (deeds).

2:18 clarifies James' point in 2:14. It'a all about demonstrating your faith to others so they can see that you have faith.

If 2:14 were about saving faith, 2:18 makes no sense in light of 2:14.

btw, how do you show your faith without works?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not gonna debate this.

I will add this:
Originally Posted by Martin Luther
We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.

Yeah, he was rather confused, by this contradictory statement.

Faith is either alone or is isn't. It cannot be both.

Deeds are supposed to follow faith. Not be included for salvation.