Deeds are supposed to follow faith. Not be included for salvation.
Yes... That is the fruit we produce. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
Upvote
0
Deeds are supposed to follow faith. Not be included for salvation.
What did he mean by 'profit'? To get saved, or something else?
Where does James speak of some "mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel"? He doesn't. He speaks of those who claim to have faith, but no works. Then, in the next 2 verses, demonstrates hypocrisy as an example of someone who doesn't have works. Does he mean that ALLD hypocrites are unsaved, regardless of what they have believed? That would be pretty extreme! All of us from time to time have acted hypocritically.
in fact, EVERY TIME we sin we are being hypocritical. Does that demonstrate being unsaved?
2:15,16 demonstrate hypocrisy, which is common among believers. To consider all hypocrites in the evangelical church as unbelievers isn't sane.
2:18 actually clears up the fog, if one pays attention to what the point is.
He sets up a "someone" who asks a good question.My NIV Study Bible has quotes right after "you have faith, I have deeds". I think that is wrong. I believe the someone continues with "show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."
So, the someone begins with acknowledging that YOU have faith, and he has deeds. But then he continues with a challenge for YOU to show him your faith without deeds, and he will show YOU his faith by what he does (deeds).
2:18 clarifies James' point in 2:14. It'a all about demonstrating your faith to others so they can see that you have faith.
If 2:14 were about saving faith, 2:18 makes no sense in light of 2:14.
btw, how do you show your faith without works?
ὄφελος,n \{of'-el-os}
1) advantage, profit
Professing to be a Christian when one is not may secure a standing before men, it may improve his moral and social prestige, he may be able to join a church, and help promote his commercial interests, but can it save him? What is the use to fein to be charitable when works of charity are withheld? What good does it bring to calling oneself a Christian when empty stomachs are met with good words? How can a person claim to be a Christian and clothe the naked by good wishes? What does it profit to profess to be a believer when there is no true piety?
Neither can a person be saved by a mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel. To say that I am a Christian and am unable to appeal to any good works and spiritual fruits as proof of it, profits neither the person nor those who listen.
What doth it profit, my brethren,.... The apostle having finished his discourse on respect of persons, and the arguments he used to dissuade from it, by an easy transition passes to treat upon faith and works, showing that faith without works, particularly without works of mercy, is of no profit and advantage:
though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? it is clear that the apostle is not speaking of true faith, for that, in persons capable of performing them, is not without works; it is an operative grace; it works by love and kindness, both to Christ, and to his members; but of a profession of faith, a mere historical one, by which a man, at most, assents to the truth of things, as even devils do, James 2:19 and only says he has faith, but has it not; as Simon Magus, who said he believed, but did not.
Can faith save him? such a faith as this, a faith without works, an historical one, a mere profession of faith, which lies only in words, and has no deeds, to show the truth and genuineness of it. True faith indeed has no causal influence on salvation, or has any virtue and efficacy in itself to save; Christ, object of faith, is the only cause and author of salvation; faith is only that grace which receives a justifying righteousness, the pardon of sin, adoption, and a right to the heavenly inheritance; but it does not justify, nor pardon, nor adopt, nor give the right to the inheritance, but lays hold on, and claims these, by virtue of the gift of grace; and it has spiritual and eternal salvation inseparably connected with it; but as for the other faith, a man may have it, and be in the gall of bitterness, and bond of iniquity; he may have all faith in that sense, and be nothing; it is no other than the devils themselves have; and so he may have it, and be damned.
Martin Luther said:We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.
lololololololololol
Then I suggest you learn how to better convey or be more succinct in your points because I NEVER saw this conveyed in ANY of your posts so far in this thread.
Thanks.
Yes.Is there such a thing as a false convert, one that may look like a convert, but really they aren't saved? They may even know a bunch of doctrine, or said a prayer at an invitation, and say and do the right things. But inwardly, there is no new birth or growth.
These links only bring me to the top of page 4 of this thread. How about giving me the actual post numbers?
Thanks.
You are ignoring my argument, and are not interacting with what I'm actually saying. Your statement here has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted.By understanding 2:14 to mean that a faith without works won't save, you have moved into the camp of the RCC. How's their campfire working out for you?
It doesn't. It's a said faith.If 2:14 refers to saving faith, you have to include works in getting salvation.
I agree.There is no wriggle room here.
No even close to my view. You won't find anywhere that shows me to believe this.We are either saved by faith without works, taught by Paul, or we are saved by a faith that works (your take on James).
No, James was talking about people who just SAY that they have faith.Or, James wasn't speaking of saving faith at all, but rather, believers who aren't demonstrating their faith to others. Which removes any perceived conflict between Paul and James.
How is a question being "deliberately obtuse".Being deliberately obtuse.
Nice obtuse answer. So, what is the advantage to faith having works?The actual Greek word rendered "profit" also means "advantage".
Was Abraham's actions for God's eyes only, of for others to see?Just like Paul uses Abraham as his example, James does the same.
Bingo! And that is my point. James' justification has nothing to do with our eternal salvation, or the justification from God that comes by faith.What is maintained is, that Paul addresses the fact of how a man can be justified before God, and James addresses how a man can be justified before man.
Supposed to be evidenced by works. That was James' point. 2:18 is the clear indication of that.Faith, especailly saving faith, will be evidenced by "works".
Do you hold to the notion held by RT's that a "dead faith" is just another word for "false faith"?Faith without them, is dead, just like the twenty dollar bill sitting on a cabinet.
That is exactly my problem with your posts!!! In fact, I refuted your argument by exegeting 2:15,16,18 and 26. And all you've done is repeatedly quote 2:14 as if by chanting it enough, will make everything ok.You are ignoring my argument, and are not interacting with what I'm actually saying. Your statement here has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted.
No, he noted those who claim to have faith.It doesn't. It's a said faith.
Ridiculous idea! Why would he, since he was writing about PRACTICAL CHRISTIAN LIVING?? You haven't answered that.No, James was talking about people who just SAY that they have faith.
Only two of those are your posts and neither one states this so like I said.
How could you refute my argument when you're admitting that you don't even understand it?That is exactly my problem with your posts!!! In fact, I refuted your argument by exegeting 2:15,16,18 and 26. And all you've done is repeatedly quote 2:14 as if by chanting it enough, will make everything ok.
Right. A said faith. One who says they have faith.No, he noted those who claim to have faith.
Obviously, your understanding of what he said is incorrect.Ridiculous idea! Why would he, since he was writing about PRACTICAL CHRISTIAN LIVING?? You haven't answered that.
Nope. You are mistaken.The practicality of what he wrote was that believers need to demonstrate their faith to others, not just claim to have faith. That's what 2:18 means, which you keep ignoring, for no good reason.
Please exegete 2:18 so that I may have some insight into your thought process.
Stan,Really? After 116 posts you think it's clear?
Where exactly are the words 'dead faith'?
No doubt there are false believers in ANY faith, but we are talking about converts to Christianity right?
Stan,
It seems that Jesus believed there could be false converts or pretenders:
20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.I find this to be a scary way of putting it. There were those who called him, Lord, Lord, and performed supernatural miracles, but they never knew Jesus. He told them to depart from him as 'workers of lawlessness'.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness (Matt 7:20-23 ESV).
Surely this is a serious warning about the possibility of fake Christians in our midst - but they look very spiritual.
Oz
Where did I admit that I don't understand your view? I've never had a problem with understanding what you think.How could you refute my argument when you're admitting that you don't even understand it?
What is clear is how little you understand from the passage.But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works. (James 2:18 HCSB)
He is clearly demonstrating the difference between a said faith and a real faith. People can claim they believe, but a true believer will have works. It's really obvious if you follow his argument from 14 onward.
You thought I was advocating faith plus works equaled salvation. So obviously you don't understand.Where did I admit that I don't understand your view? I've never had a problem with understanding what you think.
On it own, with no context, that might be possible. But since it comes right after 14-17, your view is untenable.What is clear is how little you understand from the passage.
What the "someone" is saying is that unless one demonstrates their faith, they can't show anyone their faith. Obviously.
But your views have been quite helpful in demonstrating to others how RT misunderstands so much of Scripture.
Not RT. Why you'd think this is a reformed only view is beyond me. I've always held this view, well before I was a Calvinist.There ya go...so if Jesus tells us we are saved by our faith, and Paul tells us we are saved by our faith, then James can't be telling us faith doesn't save. He MUST be telling us this is NOT faith, no matter what those so-called believers ARE saying. There is no other way to possibly see it.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
Clearly, it is you who don't understand the logical conclusion of your own view.You thought I was advocating faith plus works equaled salvation. So obviously you don't understand.
Ha. 2:18 makes a conclusion from what was written before (2:14-17). Obviously.On it own, with no context, that might be possible. But since it comes right after 14-17, your view is untenable.
Actually, both RCC and Arminians also fail to understand James 2:14-26. So you are correct that RT isn't alone in holding to it view. What is interesting is even though RT, RCC and Arms all agree that 2:14 is about saving faith, all 3 come to contrasting views regarding 2:24-26.Not RT. Why you'd think this is a reformed only view is beyond me. I've always held this view, well before I was a Calvinist.
I've never added works to faith for salvation. Not once.Clearly, it is you who don't understand the logical conclusion of your own view.
By claiming that one is not saved unless there are good works, you have IMPLICITLY added works to faith for salvation. There are NO verses that teach this false doctrine. James speaks about demonstrating one's faith so others can see it, per 2:18. Obviously.
I agree. I just disagree with your understanding.Ha. 2:18 makes a conclusion from what was written before (2:14-17). Obviously.
2:14 is not talking about saving faith.Actually, both RCC and Arminians also fail to understand James 2:14-26. So you are correct that RT isn't alone in holding to it view. What is interesting is even though RT, RCC and Arms all agree that 2:14 is about saving faith, all 3 come to contrasting views regarding 2:24-26.
We agree with James.RT claims that faith without works proves no saving faith.
They are both wrong.Arms claim that salvation is lost if a believer doesn't produce works.
RCC claims that salvation comes from faith plus works.
None are correct. All have missed the point.
btw, I noticed that none of my points were refuted. Giving your view doesn't refute mine. Disagreeing with my points doesn't refute it either.
First, James never wrote about false converts. That's a false teaching.FG, how would you describe a false convert without using James 2:14?
First, James never wrote about false converts. That's a false teaching.
I would use Scripture and use Scriptural terms.
2 Corinthians 11:26
I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;
Galatians 2:4
But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.
The Bible identifies "false brethren" as spies. iow, deceivers who are LYING when they say they are Christians or believers. And we know what the Bible says about false teachers, who are also liars: Matt 7:15. We know them by their fruit.
You have yet to refute my position or adequately defend your own.