Falling from faith.

[BNR32FAN]

Your theology makes The Bible and God out to be a liar by having verses that plainly state a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus. But you claim that obedience is how a person earns eternal life salvation. You also deny that God is able to keep everyone of His children, your theology states a child of God can snatch themselves out of the hand of God by loss of faith.

I never said anything about obedience. Snatch themselves? That doesn’t make any sense at all. The reason it doesn’t make any sense is because John 10:29 is referring to a third party. You can’t snatch yourself, only someone else can do that. I explained why your interpretation doesn’t work. Jesus said no one can snatch them from The Father’s hand, that does not mean that no one can leave His hand or no one can be thrown away from His hand. It’s only referring to a third party. If I say no one can snatch this rabbit from my hand does that mean that I said the rabbit can’t jump from my hand? No it doesn’t. Does that mean that I can’t throw the rabbit from my hand? No it doesn’t.

 

[d taylor]

I never said anything about obedience. Snatch themselves? That doesn’t make any sense at all. The reason it doesn’t make any sense is because John 10:29 is referring to a third party. You can’t snatch yourself, only someone else can do that. I explained why your interpretation doesn’t work. Jesus said no one can snatch them from The Father’s hand, that does not mean that no one can leave His hand or no one can be thrown away from His hand. It’s only referring to a third party. If I say no one can snatch this rabbit from my hand does that mean that I said the rabbit can’t jump from my hand? No it doesn’t. Does that mean that I can’t throw the rabbit from my hand? No it doesn’t.

So you are powerful enough to escape God's hand.

God gives people who believe in Jesus, He gives that person His (God's) life. So show me (in The Bible) how a born again child of God, can take away God's life.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So you are powerful enough to escape God's hand.

Do you believe that God holds an unwilling person in his hand, constrains that person to prevent them exiting?

 

[d taylor]

Do you believe that God holds an unwilling person in his hand, constrains that person to prevent them exiting?

He does, He (God) will hold all born again children from the ones who love Him all out, to the ones who have come to dislike God and want nothing to do with Him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do you believe that God holds an unwilling person in his hand, constrains that person to prevent them exiting?

Do you believe that an unwilling person that God has chosen and regenerated, WILL continue to want to exit?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Do you believe that an unwilling person that God has chosen and regenerated, WILL continue to want to exit?

People want this one moment and then the opposite the next. I am confident that some want to be saved at some time and not to be saved at another time. Constancy is not common with people.

 

[d taylor]

Do you believe that God holds an unwilling person in his hand, constrains that person to prevent them exiting?

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All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

 

[BNR32FAN]

-​

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Yeah look up the definition of the Greek word that is translated to “comes”. It’s ONLY used in the present and imperfect tense, meaning the one who continues to come to Him, He will not cast out. It does not mean that anyone who ever came to Him will not be cast out because that would contradict what Jesus said in John 15:2 and John 15:6.

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[d taylor]

Yeah look up the definition of the Greek word that is translated to “comes”. It’s ONLY used in the present and imperfect tense, meaning the one who continues to come to Him, He will not cast out. It does not mean that anyone who ever came to Him will not be cast out because that would contradict what Jesus said in John 15:2 and John 15:6.

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

It is simple, John 5:24 shows you understanding is incorrect

 

[BNR32FAN]

So you are powerful enough to escape God's hand.

God gives people who believe in Jesus, He gives that person His (God's) life. So show me (in The Bible) how a born again child of God, can take away God's life.

First you create your own strawman then proceed to knock it down and revel as if you have achieved some sort of victory in this discussion. Your mistake was in your assumption that those who believed in Christ are saved but as I’ve pointed out several times the Bible never says that anyone who ever believED in Christ is destined to be saved. In every single verse that mentions belief as a prerequisite for salvation the word is ALWAYS used in the present tense and NEVER in the past tense.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It is simple, John 5:24 shows you understanding is incorrect

““Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

BELIEVES is the key word here. Believes present tense. All you’ve done here is prove my point.

 

[d taylor]

““Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

BELIEVES is the key word here. Believes present tense. All you’ve done here is prove my point.

No the verse correctly understood is the person who believes has crossed from death to life. The verse does not say, will eventually cross over from death to life. Which is what you are trying to make the verse say.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No the verse correctly understood is the person who believes has crossed from death to life. The verse does not say, will eventually cross over from death to life. Which is what you are trying to make the verse say.

Yeah a person who believes has crossed from death to life and if they were to die while they still believe they would receive eternal life. But if that person falls to disbelief they lost their eternal life.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will SAVE HIS SOUL FROM DEATH and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

WOW Do ya see that? Bringing a person who once believed from unbelief back to belief again SAVES HIS SOUL FROM DEATH. Are you reading this? So apparently according to James here, someone who has passed from death to life CAN pass back from life to death. And not just a physical death but the death of their soul, that’s the second death FYI.

“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay. But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10‬:‭26‬-‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

For when you have done the will of God YOU MAY RECEIVE WHAT WAS PROMISED.

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.””
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

For those who fall away from the faith their fate is WORSE than before they believed.

This is basic Sunday school 101 that my 9 year old daughter already knows. If a person believes, they’re saved, if they stop believing they’re not saved anymore.

 

[d taylor]

Yeah a person who believes has crossed from death to life and if they were to die while they still believe they would receive eternal life. But if that person falls to disbelief they lost their eternal life.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will SAVE HIS SOUL FROM DEATH and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

WOW Do ya see that? Bringing a person who once believed from unbelief back to belief again SAVES HIS SOUL FROM DEATH. Are you reading this? So apparently according to James here, someone who has passed from death to life CAN pass back from life to death. And not just a physical death but the death of their soul, that’s the second death FYI.

“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay. But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10‬:‭26‬-‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

For when you have done the will of God YOU MAY RECEIVE WHAT WAS PROMISED.

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.””
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

For those who fall away from the faith their fate is WORSE than before they believed.

This is basic Sunday school 101 that my 9 year old daughter already knows. If a person believes, they’re saved, if they stop believing they’re not saved anymore.

You need to study Jesus and the women at the well. Jesus tells her if anyone takes a drink of the water i give them, will never thirst in them living waters will spring up to a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Excellent write up on: Is Continuous Faith Required to be Born Again?
The One Who Believes: Is Continuous Faith Required to be Born Again? – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[BNR32FAN]

You need to study Jesus and the women at the well. Jesus tells her if anyone takes a drink of the water i give them, will never thirst in them living waters will spring up to a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

“Takes a drink”? That’s not what He said. He said “if anyone drinks (present tense) from this water I shall give him”.

 

[BNR32FAN]

-
​

Excellent write up on: Is Continuous Faith Required to be Born Again?
The One Who Believes: Is Continuous Faith Required to be Born Again? – Grace Evangelical Society

Not going to comment on James 5:19-20?

 

[BNR32FAN]

-
​

Excellent write up on: Is Continuous Faith Required to be Born Again?
The One Who Believes: Is Continuous Faith Required to be Born Again? – Grace Evangelical Society

You can find commentaries on every sort of heresy out there.

Here’s one that says Jesus isn’t God.

Jesus is the Son of God; not God the Son | BiblicalUnitarian.com

The Bible teaches that there is one God, the Father, and one Messiah and Lord, Jesus Christ, who is the divinely conceived Son of God. Those are very important truths, and this article will give evidence that supports them.

www.biblicalunitarian.com

Here’s one that says that Jesus and satan are the same person.

Jesus and Satan Are the Same Person

Before you crucify me, read this. We’re our own worst enemy.

medium.com

I can go on & on with numerous examples of commentaries that are bogus, that’s why I don’t do commentaries.

 

[d taylor]

Not going to comment on James 5:19-20?

-
​

Do not need to, as the verses in James are not addressing a born again child of God, losing their born again life.

But yet that understanding escapes you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

-
​

Do not need to as the verses in James are not addressing a born again child of God, losing their born again life.

But yet that understanding escapes you.

“My brethren if any among you strays from the truth” that’s not referring to a believer? James is addressing his brethren and if any among them (his brethren) stray from the truth they are in danger of the death of their soul. Brethren refers to believers.