Falling from faith.

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm not sure how that would apply since it's about charity towards others, rather than believe, faith and perseverance.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:34

And these [those on his left] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:46

 

[Servus]

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:34

Because they performed an act of charity to someone in need.

And these [those on his left] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:46

Because they failed to perform an act of charity to someone in need.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Because they performed an act of charity to someone in need.

Because they failed to perform an act of charity to someone in need.

This is true, but possible the good did good constantly and helped many of Christ's brethren. And the wicked constantly did not help those in need and so when the wicked were in need Christ did not saved save them. Matthew 6 and 7 explain that to be forgiven one must forgive others, and if a person does not forgive others then they cannot expect to be forgiven.

 

[Servus]

This is true, but possible the good did good constantly and helped many of Christ's brethren. And the wicked constantly did not help those in need and so when the wicked were in need Christ did not saved save them. Matthew 6 and 7 explain that to be forgiven one must forgive others, and if a person does not forgive others then they cannot expect to be forgiven.

Jesus specifically says "one of" as in helping one single person. And the only thing the story is about is an act of charity to one person.

Personally I think the entire passage is figurative to emphasize how important charity is, rather than a theological statement regarding heaven and hell. Because as you point out, if Jesus is speaking in a litteral sense, he is contradicting what he said in Matthew 6 and 7 etc.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus specifically says "one of" as in helping one single person. And the only thing the story is about is an act of charity to one person.

Personally I think the entire passage is figurative to emphasize how important charity is, rather than a theological statement regarding heaven and hell. Because as you point out, if Jesus is speaking in a litteral sense, he is contradicting what he said in Matthew 6 and 7 etc.

I do not agree that the passage is figurative in the sense in which you say it is.

 

[Servus]

I do not agree that the passage is figurative in the sense in which you say it is.

Could you elaborate please?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I do not agree that the passage is figurative in the sense in which you say it is.

In general I don't see your exegesis to have much merit.

I'm seeing in this thread references to passages of Scripture that scholarship traditionally believes refers to a discussion about whether someone who, after they were baptized into the church, later declared Caesar Lord to avoid death (believe it or not while many stood for Christ in the face of death, some fell away in that hour) could be restored to Christian fellowship.

So there was discussion about whether or not they could be taken back into fellowship after so doing, as well as whether they could be restored after that. That discussion takes place in Scripture.

And that's being conflated with other Scriptures about other topics like the church (as a whole) not becoming complacent in her duty to spread the gospel...

And suddenly Joe Blow from Arkansas can suddenly loose his salvation because he's a regular Christian who occasionally messes up...

I mean really this whole thread has become a study in bad exegesis so forgive when I have to point out your disagreement - though I didn't actually read the post you were disagreeing with - seems an exercise in futility.

It's great to have discussion but there must be some attempt to understand what the Bible actually means when it talks about things prior to discussion.

 

[Servus]

In general I don't see your exegesis to have much merit.

I'm seeing in this thread references to passages of Scripture that scholarship traditionally believes refers to a discussion about whether someone who, after they were baptized into the church, later declared Caesar Lord to avoid death (believe it or not while many stood for Christ in the face of death, some fell away in that hour) could be restored to Christian fellowship.

So there was discussion about whether or not they could be taken back into fellowship after so doing, as well as whether they could be restored after that. That discussion takes place in Scripture.

And that's being conflated with other Scriptures about other topics like the church (as a whole) not becoming complacent in her duty to spread the gospel...

And suddenly Joe Blow from Arkansas can suddenly loose his salvation because he's a regular Christian who occasionally messes up...

I mean really this whole thread has become a study in bad exegesis so forgive when I have to point out your disagreement - though I didn't actually read the post you were disagreeing with - seems an exercise in futility.

It's great to have discussion but there must be some attempt to understand what the Bible actually means when it talks about things prior to discussion.

When it comes to apostasy and salvation, there's usually a number of passages many have been taught to use, that don't really address apostasy.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I never said a person can not fall away from their faith actually i did say they can. But what i also said was that they remain a born again child of God as God states no one can take them from God's hand.

John 10:29 does not say that He will not cast them away or that they can never turn away from His hand. If I’m holding a frog in my hand and I say that no one can snatch this frog from my hand that doesn’t mean that the frog can’t leap from my hand or I cannot throw the frog from my hand.

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Greek word translated to “takes away” means to remove and in reference to something that is attached to anything it means to cut off or remove.

1. to raise up, elevate, lift up
a. to raise from the ground, take up: stones
b. to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
c. to draw up: a fish
2. to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3. to bear away what has been raised, carry off
a. to move from its place
b. to take off or away what is attached to anything
c. to remove
d. to carry off, carry away with one
e. to appropriate what is taken
f. to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force

Furthermore as the poster of the OP indicated children of God can once again become sons of disobedience and subject to the wrath of God.

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Could you elaborate please?

The language about sheep and goats is figurative in a pictorial and agrarian sense but the reasons for judgement are not figurative, they are plain prose.

 

[Hazelelponi]

When it comes to apostasy and salvation, there's usually a number of passages many have been taught to use, that don't really address apostasy.

True. Plus - before we can talk about apostasy itself we have to determine what that means truthfully.

Are the sacraments a sign of salvation in truth (Baptism, the Lords Supper)? and are the sacraments the "heavenly gifts" that have been tasted by the apostate?

We all know that God is allowing the wheat to grow with the chaff. So is partaking in the Lord's supper and baptism what is being spoken of?

Because we all know being saved and in Christ is more than that - and that more will never fall away in the face of death.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In general I don't see your exegesis to have much merit.

I gave no exegesis.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A person who has believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life is saved. As John 5:24 states they have crossed over from death to life. John does not say they will eventually cross over if they remain in the faith.

““Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I’m every single case of Jesus saying that anyone who believes in Him will receive eternal life He never once used the past tense form of the word. He always uses the present tense form. He never said anyone who believed in Me will receive eternal life.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Plus - before we can talk about apostasy itself we have to determine what that means truthfully.

Apostasy is to leave the faith and take up some other system of beliefs and usually involves opposition towards the faith one left. Hebrews 6:1-12 is about falling away which is not necessarily apostasy.

Therefore, interrupting an explanation of the basics of Christ, let us consider what is more advanced, not presenting again the fundamentals of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptism, and also of the imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And we shall do this, if indeed God permits it. For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, and have even tasted of the heavenly gift, and have become sharers in the Holy Spirit, who, despite having tasted the good Word of God and the virtues of the future age, have yet fallen away, to be renewed again to penance, since they are crucifying again in themselves the Son of God and are still maintaining pretences. For the earth accepts a blessing from God, by drinking in the rain that often falls upon it, and by producing plants that are useful to those by whom it is cultivated. But whatever brings forth thorns and briers is rejected, and is closest to what is accursed; their consummation is in combustion. But from you, most beloved, we are confident that there will be things better and closer to salvation; even though we speak in this way. For God is not unjust, such that he would forget your work and the love that you have shown in his name. For you have ministered, and you continue to minister, to the saints. Yet we desire that each one of you display the same solicitude toward the fulfilment of hope, even unto the end, so that you may not be slow to act, but instead may be imitators of those who, through faith and patience, shall inherit the promises.​

Hebrews 6:1-12

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well praise GOD Glory to Jesus there is now no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus then our lord said.. I have not come to condemn the world but to save it. Praise you Father for sending your Son.

So those that fall let those that are strong in the faith help them... in Jesus name

Amen but those who fall away are no longer abiding in Christ. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, it may have been read by Hebrew speaking Christians as its first readers, but it is written like all the scriptures are, for the benefit of Christians.

I say that the book of Hebrews is written for Christians some time after the Resurrection of the Lord and the descent of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Israel has significance but not as a nation or as physical descendants of Abraham, Christians are spiritual descendants for Abraham because they are in Christ and because Christ is the Seed that was promised to Abraham.

Amen and there’s also Romans 11:17-24 that clearly indicates that Gentiles can be grafted into the “olive tree” (God’s covenant) and they can also be cut off as well after having been grafted in.

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭17‬-‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

What has that verse to do with the book of Hebrews? By the way, Acts 2:28 does not mention Israel or the body of Christ.

Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.​

what has that verse to do with the book of Hebrews? And Galatians 3:28 says

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.​

So, what exactly is the reason you have for quoting it?


I am using the words as they are used in these verses - this is a sample of places where "in Christ" is used.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.​

​

1 Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.​

​

1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.​

​

1 Timothy 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

​

2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,​

​

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,​

​

2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.​

​

2 Timothy 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.​

​

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

​

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.​

​

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.​

​

Philemon 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.​

​

Philemon 1:8 Wherefore, though I might be much bold in Christ to enjoin thee that which is convenient,​

​

Philemon 1:23 There salute thee Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus;​

You posted 2 Timothy 2:10 but I think 2 Timothy 2:12 is a better example.

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The epistles to Timothy are not addressed to a congregation but are personal letters from Paul to Timothy. So when he says “if we deny Him, He will deny us” Paul is directly referring to himself and Timothy. So Paul is telling Timothy that they are perfectly capable of denying Christ and Christ will deny them before The Father on Judgement Day if they do.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I read the words in both passages as promissory,

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.​

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.​

I see the verses as promises and I believe that they are fulfilled at the last judgement.

Amen, if salvation occurred at the moment of belief then John 15:6 would be irrelevant and those who fail to abide (remain) in Christ would not be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned.

 

[BNR32FAN]

-​

There is no final judgment for a person who has believed in The Messiah for Eternal Life salvation (to see if they will receive it).

The word “judgement” used in John 3:17-18 means to condemn, convict, or sentence. And the verse, like I stated earlier, doesn’t use the word “believed” as you did here.

“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Again “believes” is used in the present tense indicating that this is referring to those who currently believe.

 

[Hawkins]

-​

A believer may fall away from their faith, but God never lets go of a born again child of God.

This is true, from the perspective that God as a good Shepherd will never leave a single sheep behind. Of course, God reserves the right to remove names from the book of Life. This serves well as a warning such that everyone of us Christians must be alerted, because Satan won't give up easily.